+ Kow maw default builds 
But what can they build against Fed Rengar/Zed/talon/Quinn WHILE NOT trolling?
Ehmmm Nothing literaly FKING NOTHING
If someone says Omen I am gonna nuke his country so he cannot spread
Whats the poant of this thread?** We need New items Which give Armor + AD**
Ark Sorcerer4 votesOne reason why they can't is because it messes with the "Item balance" we are already losing.
Think about it, most HP items (for tanks anyway) give armour. Only 2 items give Magic Resistance and HP-- Spirits Visage and Banshee's Veil. Tanks are naturally better against AD over AP. To get even more MR, they have to go for damage items and they won't be very tanky.
Assassins have AD items that give Magic Resistance for mages but no armour for other AD Assassin, marksmen, and top laners. This make them effective for survival against mages (and other AP assassins) but not Ad targets.
What is the connection? Stats like these are generally have a pattern to keep things "balance" in the sense that no one champion, sub-class or class can completely out scale the other. Imagine Zed or Yasuo having that item that allows them get AD and Armour. Yeah no, they would replace the tank meta by having the survival AND the kill potential -- HP aside.
With that said, I don't really care if ONE item allows for AD with armour but that means an AD killing another AD is easier and allows for the little existent "Item Balance" we have.
Poske1 votes"Tanks are naturaly better against ad over ap?"
Average full tank has like 290 armor and 150 ressist. More armor..
Yasuo core build is Ie Pd Bt Mallet and sterak. Ad Armor item wouldnt change much maybe he would get it over last 2 in case he is vs full ad team. But there is deadman already. Definetly dont see your concern
Also I doubt zed would build it. Maybe in a zed vs talon matchup. Zed ussualy can delete caries without them touching him. I suppose it could help vs bruisers but then again zed ussualy goes trough all the bruisers and reaches AP/Ad carry, Maw/shimitar helps him against Ap carry burst.. such as annie but normaly ad carries cant burst him so he doesnt even need such item
We could make Ad armor item give some mana. To make it less efficiant on Riven/zed/yasuo/fiora (Lets face it she is never oom) and alikes if you are really concerned
I assure you Adding AD/armor Item would only help balance. It would only get healthier and it wouldnt make classes irelevant
1 reason why ad carries feel helpless is because they cant build anything viable till really late into the game against 50% of assassins
Ark Sorcerer1 votesIt wouldn't help with the balance because a lot of the game play is centered around "Item Balance." Why else do you think a lot of mages (and other players) have complained about Edge of Night. That plus Maw and any AD assassin has to items that boost their kill potential and increase their survivabilty against their laner (assuming AP). Making an item that allows AD plus armour means said assassin can not only be exceptionally vary in build, but becomes super effective regardless of who they are facing against.
Champions by design are suppose to have strengths and weakness; be it a high skill curve, it dependence or whatever, but allowing those champs to be very safe with them being so flexible in build is not healthy in regards. That is why there is "Item Balance"
It is somewhat like with MF and a few other Marksmen taking Edge of Night and other Assassin items and using them to be a beast in this game, like so many have complained about. It is through this that Riot has nerfed the champion themselves rather than nerfing the items. Just bring Edge of Night into the game caused so many champions to spiral out of control and dominate the meta-- so "Item Balance" (the reasoning behind the quotation marks).
Introducing an AD and Armour item would make champions that were never suppose to use it, well, use it and be a dominate force.
In your specific case, you want marksmen to have an item to survive against an AD champion. The only issue is that a marksmen are never suppose to be in the front lines to begin with. You needing armour as a marksmen means you are getting caught out a lot and well, that just comes with learning the game. Or you can get Life Steal. AD is in so do the latter.
Speaking of which, we are in a AD Caster Meta-- Ad champions that use spells to deal damage end up being played a lot. Adding an AD and armour items, I promise you, will not: "I assure you Adding AD/armor Item would only help balance. It would only get healthier and it wouldnt make classes irelevant". In fact, it should make Mages be more and more obsolete (not including bot lane. Let's focus mid). Obviously the armour does not help, but it is another item that is meant for AD champions. So hey, Mages. You lost Rylai's, some of you got Nerfed. How does that make you feel?
Before you mention that an assassin can just get to a marksmen mid game with out a team fight, you had stated "Ad Armor item wouldnt change much maybe he would get it over last 2 in case he is vs full ad team. But there is deadman already. Definetly dont see your concern" You neglect that could be the FIRST item. If Zed or Yasuo are up against AD laners, well, they have no need for Magic Res. On top of that, mid game comes and a Yasuo, Zed or any other AD champion wants to dance, they have amour to reduce the damage, something they would NEVER have unless they want to reduce their damage. They only go for Dead Man's Plate if they feel like they like they are dying a lot and need the armour to increase their survival chances. Never a first, second, or even a third item. I doubt it would be a fourth. It is usually a fifth or sixth.
Allowing this AD Armour item makes AD champions soar in all laning phases.
After all, back to the board, Marksmen are suppose to deal damage but can't take much. Their only Items for sustain is life steal. Hmm... How is the Edge doing for you MF?
Like I said, I don't care if there is a AD Armour item. We are in a AD Caster meta after all. I will currently be waiting for Mages to have another update to make them relevant or gain a few AP Items. I will just have to wait... 6 or more months. Until then...
Poske1 votesItemization is a big part of balance. And A lack of armor options for carries is sad. If you are scared of abuse cases **we could make it ranged only ** but I would honestly like there to be an Ad/armor option for champions like riven
I mean there is maw shimitar edge. Why cant we have AD / armor item... I have seen carries just getting hexdrinker as 2nd/3rd item to counter my le bl/kata and then proceding with their build And its nice that they have an option in case AP carry gets fed
Introduction of AD/Armor item would definetly change stuff. I am not denying that. I just think that the change would be wildly positive
As I told you before botlane has mixed damage. Building defensive items in botlane other the ones that give hitpoints is kinda meh. You never see a carry going Hexdrinker because they have malza support. Because he ll just die to lucian then
At most people buy phage.. on some champs but thats about it. There is also phantom dancer I guess
If you have 2 champions. One counters another (example: Assassin counters carry) And if we create an item which both assassins and carries can use (We would even make it more fitting towards carries but thats beside the point)
Then if both champions buy it. The value carrie gets from an item is higher. Because itself he is countered by assassin anyway
Now obviously there are some wierd examples. Vayne is fantastic against assassins anyway and building that on her would mostlikely be bad you are better of Rushing attackspeed. There is quinn which is both assassin and ad carry But I think you get a point?
Runes work on the same principle. If you are countered they ll help you more then they ll help your enemy assuming you take a fitting rune page with extra defense and not reduced time death
Curently counterplay to fed rengar/talon/zed/kha is be in fountain and you might survive. Or go full tank on a carry and lose a game because you are full tank carry...
Now if we add Armor/Ad item they might survive for a second longer enough for them to escape outplay outwhatever
** As far as yasuo goes** Now I could see you arguing. X champion could buy it as a first item but not yasuo. Being a yasuo main top 200 world I can assure you. Introducing AD/Armor item does nothing for yas. He already has Mallet which is fantastic defensive option he has sterak to
Honestly if anything it hurts him because this means carries might have occassionaly X Items armor (Lets say 65) and yasuo builds 0 pen items so unless he gets his ulti off carry ll be surprisingly tanky and not a paper which dies in 4 swings
And that would be a deserving yasuo nerf specially given they buffed fervor for no reason again
ON yasuo you are essentially forced to build phantom dancer + Cloak first. Building anything else is wrong unless you are in an extreme matchup. Facing doran shield,thorn rammus now this is fked up but even in this case i guess mallet is the best option
Source: Bunch of experience. Yasuo has set in stone core build. Infact his 2 items are so set in stone that i am running lifesteal runes to compensate the fact that I cannot delay my build just because of vampiric
But then again yasuo is extremly flexible. I reached master playing yasuo botlane (True story) he can always swap away from rammus and build normaly if a team agrees
Now champions like 
and other champions who dont have their builds set in stone
Could go Armor/Ad item as their first item
Primary use of an item is to make Carries life easier specially if we could have hexdrinker alike component (Armor version) so ad carries could get it relativly early on (Still not first item but maybe after it)
Now if some other Non AD carries want to build said item world wont fall apart XD Ad carries will still benefit more if they happend to face a champion with the same said item
There are always option to put mana on item or make it ranged only but honestly those stuff are really not needed. We could make 2 AD/armor items and the one which gives mana would be a better one so that the champions like Riven/Fiora (Lets face it she has no mana cost) Benefit less
As far as mages go. Next update is tank update. After that I assume its support update. It ll be a long time before mages get update
And in no way shape or form mages are weak ATM. There are weak cases like azir but thats as far as it goes
So sick of full AD teams and having 0 option to build against those unless you are a tank
Ark Sorcerer1 votes(For the lack of time, I only read the first few paragraphs. I will get back to the rest and comment latter one)
The reason why an AD/Armour item cannot exist, ESPECIALLY for ranged champions, is because ranged champions are NEVER suppose to take a lot of damage in order to kill them. For marksmen, they are suppose to be the squishiest class, even more than the assassins. That is a class design. Killing a marksmen in number of autos, abilities, or time total, should be the quickest to kill. Marksmen are the opposite to kill like Tanks.
If it takes 45 seconds to kill a tank-- and one that is just standing their doing nothing-- a marksmen shouldn't even be 5 seconds. Marksmen are suppose to be the easiest to kill, and they have the highest kill potential, which is why they build all AD/Crit/Attack Speed.
In other games, say MMOs, marksmen are classified as DPS- Damage per second. DPS characters deal the most damage but in turn can tank the least, even less than supports (if they can heal themselves).
Picture it like this: a 1v1 fight, full build, straight head on fight, no kiting, using all abilities. You have an assassin try to kill every single class, marksmen would be the quickest to kill.
Marksmen weren't even designed for the items of Maw of Mal in the first place, that was for AD assassins, like Edge of Night is. Marksmen weren't suppose to any additional armour or mr. They were meant to be straight AD/crit/attack speed and kill from a safe position.
That is in a ideal world where teams fight in a realistic 5v5 fight, a world where assassins can't jump past the tanks and got to the marksmen and kill them there and get out. A world where the whole team will murder that assassin for jumping behind enemy lines in a quick 5v1 before the assassin can do anything. In a ideal world.
What makes this not ideal is the fact you are not constantly in a 5v5 fight in battle positions, but you can be in a 1v1. The 1v1s are where you want to get MR or AD, not because of 5v5. (got to go-- more later)
Poske1 votesI have it hard time arguing with unranked not competetive player which spams custom games (Which are anything but balanced) That alone says you have no idea about game balance. Whatever I say you just straight up backtalk
And why? Because X years ago Riot said their statement on AD/Armor item which was one of the most retarded statements I ever saw. So you all sheeples listen to their ideology (non ideology)
Adding AD/Armor item doesnt mean AD carries become immortal. It would be there to help them against full ad teams / Fed assassins
Notice the word help? HELP thats all it would do help. They have 6 DIFF viable AP / ressist items to help them against Burst mages / Ap Assassins AND I as a main of those never though that WAS FKING UNHEALTHY
And sorry but shimitar and banshee were specificily designed for carries. And I am sure riot knew they would use hexdrinker when it came
But they have 0 options when it comes to building against Physical damage. Which is why AD assassins are considered cancer for the major part.
Marksman are in horrible state and one reason for that is lack of itemization.
Marskman are glass cannon champions. All they want to do is to do damage. Any defensive item delays them. It is completly healthy for a marksman to do less damage because he doesnt want to get instagibed while rengar / talon / kha zix is mid air
Of course if we make item broken like 100 ad 100 armor for 2k gold we ll ahve a problem
Other games spacially MMOS are irelevant dont even fking bring them up.
I am sure there is an AD armor item in every fking Moba
Ark Sorcerer1 votesAnd with that I guess we are done.
Sub, I get what you are saying, even though some of it is wrong, I get.
You main a marksmen and you are tired of AD champions bursting you down faster then anyone can pop a balloon, I understand. What you have to understand is the nature of the class.
The Marksmen class is a squishy, high dps class that is only useful when going full damage-- be it AD, Crit, or attack speed.
The way the class is 'balanced' is by making them easy to kill in exchange for their high dps. The way the marksmen class raises their survivability is by having a skill that physically moves the character out of harm--- Graves, Lucian, Kalista, Tristana, Ezreal, and Corki-- all have an ability (or passive) that can move them out of danger. Other cases like Sivir, Ashe, Jhin and Jinx are special but they still have a form of surviving. Sivir has a spell shield, one of the only two champions to have such an ability, while the other 3 have CC, something rare for the marksmen class. Then there is Cait who has both.
In Class design, they are meant to be easy to kill once you can get past their one method of surviving. In item design, they have another form of surviving: Life Steal! Life steal is the only in game sustain marksmen have.
Speaking of items, lets talk about a comment of yours: "Marksman are in horrible state and one reason for that is lack of itemization."
I mean, sure... MF, Jhin and Varus seem to be everywhere I go, Vayne is still good, not to mention Ashe and Jinx but whatever. I can't argue if they are in a good place, which is better then mages, but whatever.
I can argue the "lack of itemization" portion. Marksmen, as a class, can build the following: I) Attack Damage II) Attack Speed III) Critical Strike IV) Life Steal. Now granted, most of these double dip, Attack Damage and Life Steal, and Critical Strike and Attack Speed but these are still options.
A marksmen can go AD without Life Steal, there are plenty of items. Thus, when they do get Life Steal, they are getting Life Steal and the AD is what helps its effectiveness. Same applies to Critical Strike and Attack Speed, but with the Item Infinity Edge, you can tell if they are going Crit or attack speed.
That there is four stats of items Marksmen can go for. Now Granted, not all marksmen are the same and some should go for two stats over the others. Jinx, Cait, and Ashe are great examples of champions that should go for crit and attack speed over AD, while Graves, Lucian, and MF are champions that should go for AD. Both of these groups can still use Life Steal, however.
Compare that to mages, who have only one, arguably two, stats they can only use: Ability Power and Mana. You want to talk about limitations, look at mages. They want armour, Zhonya's is the only option. Magic Resistance: Abyssal Scepter, only option. That is it! They want to survive, they must rely on their kits from their on.
The counter argument could be that with in Ability Power, they have some options to really stop and assess the situation with, where as Crit, Attack Speed, and Life Steal is pretty straight forward. The thing is, Life Steal is not straight forward, each life item behaves differently. One gives you attack speed, another an over-shield, while another is the best healing in the game... But the champions that use AD have a bigger variety of what they can use, even to the point of using items that were never meant for them.
You mentioned that Banshee's Veil was meant for Marksmen, which I have a hard time believing in. Given the stats, this is an item that few marksmen would actually be useful for the class. Like I said, the marksmen class is a dps class, and this item does not assist with the dps part at all. Now granted, I will give the actual passive, the spell shield a fair go because any champion can use a meaningless or low cd ability to pop that on a tank but it still does not fit the class itself.
What I can tell is that items like Maw of Mal and Edge of Night was meant for AD Assassins against mages. Mercurial Scimitar is indeed a item that was meant for Marksmen but who ever gets this item? (Thinking to myself, is this item even for Rift? That is how often I have seen it, I am doubting if it is even for the map. Checking, no it is Dervish Blade. Okay) Then there is Wit's End. That could be used for Marksmen, if they have magic in their kit, otherwise it is a support item meant to increase damage for an ally, like before Pre-Season 7 Banner of Command on tank supports. I would argue that item is more helpful for Diana or Ekko to increase their own burst when they engage and deal a few auto attacks over most marksmen. Point is still ONE item was 100% meant for marksmen for the stat MR. Wit's End is debatable. Every other item was meant for the assassin class. Oh, but wait!
You get champions like MF and Varus who can use these items and screw up the whole meta. What was suppose to be for AD assassins is now getting to the point where AD Casters use it, making us go in a AD Caster Meta, which is why you say some marksmen are in a bad spot: "Marksman are in horrible state" because most are not AD Casters.
Most of them use auto attacks to deal 85% or more of the total damage dealt in the game. Jinx, Ashe, and Cait are great examples. Granted Cait has a Q and a good damaging ult, most of the damage is coming from her crits, an auto attack proc. Marksmen are not in a "horrible" state. They are having a shift from Mrs. and Mrs. I-Don't-Even-Need-Abilities-Other-Than-My-Q Ashe and Jinx to Miss, Mr., and Mr. Attack-Speed-Is-Fine-I-Guess-But-What-I-Really-Want-Is-Attack-Damage Fortune, Varus, and Jhin.
Analyze the game! DPS Characters are not suppose to have even decent armour and magic Res stats, they deal damage from a safe distance. Granted, there are plenty of times where you get caught out or an assassin wants to dance in a 1v1 and your dps doesn't mean anything if you can't respond in time, which is a skill that grows.
I would have liked to actually talk about the AD/Armour item more but I think targeting the class and the problems is better for you. I am done. I would have liked to have a genuine discussion and talk about this but because you had to go into my profile and mention that because I have had recent ping issues and do not wish to cost my team a game and thus have been on bots and generally screwing around on the new testing mode does not mean anything. Ethos have nothing to do with this. Granted it would be nice to have some, but logos is what matters here and I had tried to present it to you, but you had to commit the Ad Hominem Fallacy and so I am done. I mean sure, I could continue knowing that my argument is stronger because you had committed said fallacy but I think you are in no place of reason since you committed it and so I am resigning.
Having an AD/Armour will screw the meta more. It WILL make AD Casters stronger and will not be for the good. Having a MF, Varus or Jhin with Edge of Night, Mal of Maw, this AD/Armour item, presumably Beserker's Greaves (or whatever Jhin wants), Life Steal-- Death's Dance or BloodThirster and a Black Cleaver will make them powerful as heck. It will not make other Marksmen shine and it won't make their be balance in the class. It will screw up everything. That is all. Try to get far in life committing fallacies.
Poske1 votesI dont main marskman.
Only marskman I main is yasuo botlane. Of course that doesnt mean I am not good at bunch of marksman champs
Buying AD armor item delays them. Thats the part you dont get its not like they would hit as hard while being more tanky they would hit less if they choose to build that item
And its not like they wouldnt still be the most focused and squishiest role in the game after all they provide sustained dps they are bound to be that
Ever since zhonya was gutted yeah I agree mages need more armor options
A great thing would be adding that twisted treeline item 
or a version of it
In a past you had Athene and Abysall as Mr options for mages. Nowdays its just 1
But hey mages atleast have zhonya (Eventhough you cant build this item at every mage its to meh). Carries have nothing apart from ocasional iceborn on ezreal
Sasogwa2 votesI agree let's remove AD/MR items so that AD carries have to build meaningful defensive items.
Salron2 votes
Lil Lewd Witch1 votesThey had it for a little while with 
but then I guess they decided it was being abused too much and nerfed its efficiency, it would be nice to have something protect from AD burst.
MXXXXXL1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yTUUVyo6,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-09T17:08:51.827+0000)
We need New items Which give Armor + AD**
I feel like an armor + AD item would be such a generalist item that literally everybody would build.
Poske1 votesDont trust riot theories
Thats what they said you literaly took words from their mouth
Rabadon Ie sighstone are generalist items aswell. You normaly see multiple of there per game
MXXXXXL1 votesWait really? Where did they say that? I just always assumed that'd happen, i've always been kinda glad there's no AD armor item.
Poske1 votesNo you literaly said it the way the did "Generalist item"
By that logic we should remove the above mentioned item becasue they are generalist items to
ProtestantCaesar1 votesThere are no AD + Armor items.
There is one AP + MR item. 
It was considered a balance problem before it was nerfed because if you were in an AP vs. AP lane matchup, you and your lane opponent would both rush it in every game, and the one to finish first was the stronger.
This is also a game where an AD vs. AD bot lane matchup has been meta for, what, 7 seasons now? And you're asking for an item that can increase your damage dealt while decreasing the damage dealt to you by your AD lane opponent. Can you see how that would present balance difficulties?
It may feel bad to build a fully defensive item on an ADC, but if you have to do that, you should do that.
Agravain1 votesThere are no AD + Armor items. There is one AP + MR item.
This is also a game where an AD vs. AD bot lane matchup has been meta for, what, 7 seasons now? And you're asking for an item that can increase your damage dealt while decreasing the damage dealt to you by your AD lane opponent. Can you see how that would present balance difficulties?
It may feel bad to build a fully defensive item on an ADC, but if you have to do that, you should do that.
There's also 
, just saying. Although it's a lot different than what it use to be.
ProtestantCaesar1 votesOh, thanks. You're right. There are 2 AP + MR items.
Ark Sorcerer1 votesOne of which that can only help Mid lane Mages. Unless you are a mid lane Support Lux or Karma... weird.
Poske1 votesI really dont see a problem?
Build that item on AD carry. Suddendly you die to zyra malzahar sona Cupcake
Early into the game Mage supports Zyra/Brand/Malzahar out damage (Seriously ask anyone he ll confirm) AD carries and you dont see an enemy ad Carry rushing hexdrinker because of that
Botlane has a mixed damge because every support apart from ocasional poppy does Magic dmg
You can make the same argument about phantomdancer cant ya?. Item which massively helps carries against enemy ad carries yet not overbought
Have fun building guardian angel as your second item which doesnt really help against AD assassins more then Ap assassins because some random Rengar got ahead and you can only bend over
Sanctimonious1 votes
is great as a 3rd or fourth item on marksmen. 
I like going Marksmen 
or 
so i usually go 
Perfectly valid and well tbh.
exists as well. Get deleted? Second life. Team can peel.
AD + Armor would solidify the bruiser / ADC meta and fuck it completely. Much better off just building
ChaddyFantome1 votesAn ad armor item would be ubiquitous and be bought on all ADs, including the AD assassins you want to protect yourself from.
