AD is getting buffed, but...

Mira Arya Enthe·Apr 11, 2017·115 votes·6,075 views

Armor pen is also being nerfed.

Armor shred is being nerfed.

EC is going up in price.

Armor is getting buffed, which also raises the value of Thornmail.

Tanks are getting new items.

GA is losing MR(meaning ADCs take more damage 30 AD isn't much)

Tanks and Juggernauts are finally receiving a good MR item besides SV.

Health is only being nerfed a little bit.

Please do some research before hysterically posting angry circle jerks. Overall this patch is a net gain for survivability.

As for buffs to DD it seems Riot is trying to raise survivability across the board.

155 Comments

EedatApr 11, 201752 votes

"BUT Y RITO HATE AP?!?! AP IS ALWAYS GARBAGE! QQ RITO AD MASTER RACE BULLSHIT FAVORITISM"

Thats what I've gathered from the boards

SexualsaurusApr 11, 20179 votes

Next thing you'll know is that they'll probably want item 3047 to be buffed to 15% auto attack reduction...

This Is Your DadApr 11, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Next thing you'll know is that they'll probably want to be buffed to 15% auto attack reduction...

I think mobis needs some love. I was thinking making the ms ramp up. Same thing with warmog's, make the hp regen ramp up 1/8th of the total per second.

SexualsaurusApr 11, 20173 votes

I hope item 3117 gets some love too, it would be nice change and might encourage more team-play and roaming.

This Is Your DadApr 11, 20173 votes

{quoted}

I hope gets some love too, it would be nice change and might encourage more team-play and roaming.

I mean, it's balanced in what it does, but I think instead of just suddenly going fast, it could both slow down/speed up upon being hit/not taking damage in a linear fashion.

Need Gold 4 TentApr 11, 20173 votes

i know right? i was a tryndamere with a PD hitting a morgana until she landed a pointblank Q on me. I spun after her right after that and barely got in range for the passive to activate. The gap between us closed gradually as I chased from the outer turret to the inner turret, and suddenly it started to open up again! Then I checked her items and saw those fkin orange boots

LauchmelderApr 11, 20176 votes

I wouldn't call it balanced.

But I also wouldn't mind to have it just as a big FU to some AD mains on the boards.

SexualsaurusApr 11, 20175 votes

I hate ninja tabi with passion, it sucks when the entire enemy team has it as well because of how gold efficient it is x(

LauchmelderApr 11, 20174 votes

Well I also think that it's too strong right now. I'm just tired of some certain AD mains on here constantly complaining about AP.

SexualsaurusApr 11, 20171 votes

I don't hate AP personally, one of my main champs is Karthus . The main issue i have with ap is that it just feels too generic with most champs build paths e.g item 3165 first item then into a item 3285 . Its a nice change when you have a champ like TwistedFate who builds a lichbane first item.

LauchmelderApr 11, 201713 votes

That's literally the only thing wrong with AP right now. Itemization is so stale that it just feels boring.

Cosmic WarperApr 11, 201721 votes

{quoted}

"BUT Y RITO HATE AP?!?! AP IS ALWAYS GARBAGE! QQ RITO AD MASTER RACE BULLSHIT FAVORITISM"

Thats what I've gathered from the boards

I don't think AD should be nerfed, but I think AP items need more of a solid framework like lethality and marksmen items.

junglerboy16Apr 12, 20175 votes

The only problem with that is marksmen are consistent, mages are not. To date, all standard marksmen (as in, not wildly off meta like AD Zyra or what have you) share 3 main things in common: Range, mana use, and dealing the majority of their damage through autos (especially as the game progresses, even caster ADCs deal the bulk of their damage with AAs over the course of the game)

AP users are another story, since there are a vast variety of play styles available, including variation based on resource type, spell style, spell cost relative to their resource, cooldowns, etc. ADC items can be standardized because they are a standardized class, AP and mage items cannot, since everything fills a certain niche by default (even mainstays like Rabadon's for example)

Cosmic WarperApr 12, 20172 votes

{quoted}

The only problem with that is marksmen are consistent, mages are not. To date, all standard marksmen (as in, not wildly off meta like AD Zyra or what have you) share 3 main things in common: Range, mana use, and dealing the majority of their damage through autos (especially as the game progresses, even caster ADCs deal the bulk of their damage with AAs over the course of the game)

AP users are another story, since there are a vast variety of play styles available, including variation based on resource type, spell style, spell cost relative to their resource, cooldowns, etc. ADC items can be standardized because they are a standardized class, AP and mage items cannot, since everything fills a certain niche by default (even mainstays like Rabadon's for example)

Yeah that's true. Mages are a varied class and contain lots of different archetypes. It would be nice if the item choices for each type were more pronounced. Right now it's either morello's, roa, or tear first item, then either a defensive ap item (rylai's,zhonya's, abyssal) then void then luden's/ dcap or skip those for more ap defensive items because you don't want to get blown up instantly. Would be nice if each item played more to its intended niche( liandry's to tank shredding, luden's to AoE and mobility, abyssal for close range mages). Right now an ap item is either great or bad, there seems to be no in between.

Sahn UzalApr 11, 201724 votes

I've seen Tank mains Whine about the Changes. I've seen Mage mains whine about the changes and I've seen ADC mains whine about the changes.

Seriously, is it that hard to just fucking wait it out and see what happens? Clearly, the LoL community can not properly predict how changes will affect the game.

RalanrApr 11, 20173 votes

When has anyone ever not whined though?

Risk of FateApr 11, 20171 votes

[deleted]

Sahn UzalApr 11, 20175 votes

If Adaptive Helm does anything, it's helping tanks deal with champs like Cass, Ryze etc. It won't affect burst mages for shit.

Big LincolnApr 11, 20175 votes

it hurts viktor quite a lot though, all of his attacks are two-part or more

Sahn UzalApr 11, 20173 votes

True. I don't think he really cares for hitting tanks though.

We'll see how it all works out.

GrandpaTheGreatApr 11, 201721 votes

Most the people who are content to wait and see are probably way more quiet than the people who are freaking out, hence why we hear the complainy people a lot more

RainbowIceeApr 11, 20172 votes

Only real complaining i've seen has been the Crit reduction being gone from omens, though honestly in general i think these changes will just make bruisers really strong, so indirectly this might make shen have a comeback in the game.

Legacy HydralphaApr 11, 201712 votes

I'm mostly worried about magic damage DoT champs such as , Malzahar , and Teemo . Sure, people hate these champions, but I'm worried that Adaptive Helm could dumpster them.

GrReaper96Apr 11, 20174 votes

Compensation buffs incoming i hope Expect from Malzahar hes getting nerfed again so he can stay support

HateDaddyApr 11, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Legacy Hydralpha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yQp362NJ,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-04-11T19:14:20.800+0000)

I'm mostly worried about magic damage DoT champs such as , , and . Sure, people hate these champions, but I'm worried that Adaptive Helm could dumpster them.

Brand is more burst based imo. He just so happens to have dots in his kit as well.

Faceroll TacticsApr 11, 20171 votes

His dots have been negligible since his update, it's mainly just a rylais proccer and an indicator for the aoe burst that 3 stacks gives you

TyrekGoldenspearApr 11, 20172 votes

Eh, pretty much. I play Brand and while it's fun to kill someone with his DOT, 9/10 times I can guarantee it's the explosion that kills them. The actual burn is also useful for item 3151 . Proc both Rylias and Liandries and I can watch tanks melt. It's disgustingly fascinating to watch them melt when I touch them with a spell.

woodvsmurphApr 11, 201712 votes

So... if losing 10 ad on black cleaver is outweighed by the 100hp buff... then explain how +10 armor outweighs losing 75hp? This just makes tanks that much weaker in lane and more easily forced out of lane... to fall further behind. Not only does it make laning vs a bruiser or assassin harder for tanks provided said bruiser has sustain, but also it weakens their early/early-mid game teamfights and skirmishes vs enemy teams with both magic and physical damage (since they have no resistance vs the other type of damage). Furthermore, we cannot forget true damage. If people simply needed more armor, then why wouldn't they be building fewer hp+resistance items and more raw armor items item 3110 item 3025 item 3075 ?

So not only is riot essentially taking the opposite of their stance on black cleaver (big hp>small ad turns into small armor> big hp), but also you can see by itemization and logic that losing 75hp for a whopping 10ish armor buff is in no way a buff.

Gregor GysiApr 12, 20172 votes

10 armor = 200 gold 75 HP = 200 gold 10 AD = 350 gold 100HP = 266 gold

That means BC got a gold efficiency nerf while the tank items changes are neutral.

Now, please tell me that you are now going to complain about the BC nerf, because us poor AD casters got nerfed in comparison to tanks only due to ADCs abusing BC.

woodvsmurphApr 12, 20174 votes

It is not about the cost of an item or it's gold value as per comparing cloth armor gold cost per armor vs hp gold cost on ruby crystal or anything like that. It is about the overall value champs get from the item(s). Maybe the gold value stays neutral, maybe not. But if tanks get forced out of lane that much more easily by bruisers, they will fall further behind in items and thus the change is less gold efficient even if 10 armor = 75 hp. Very simple math there sir/ma'am. Although now that I've learned there are updates to ad items as well - with less overall armor pen, the changes don't sound nearly so bad. Less armor pen means not as much of the extra armor gets negated by simply buying a last whisper item or black cleaver - meaning the lost hp doesn't matter AS MUCH at least in mid-late game when you have multiple items. At 0-2 items though, I still believe tanks will be weaker to some bruiser matchups, and thus their laning phase COULD easily still suffer.

WiegrafOfValorApr 11, 20178 votes

Health is only being nerfed a little bit.

75 HP PER ITEM

3 TANK ITEMS = 225 HP ( a little bit )

Armor pen is also being nerfed.

10% nerf to it doesn't really change much since AR values were increased.

LIVE:

item 3143 item 3068 item 3742 = 60 + 50 + 50 = 160 item 3036 45% BONUS AR PEN

160 - 45% = 88 ARMOR ( 72 ARMOR REDUCED )

PBE:

item 3143 item 3068 item 3742 = 60 + 60 + 60 = 160 item 3036 35% BONUS AR PEN

180 - 35% = 117 ARMOR ( 63 ARMOR REDUCED )

#THE HUGE NERF YOU ADC MAINS ARE TALKING ABOUT ONLY MEANS 9 MORE ARMOR TO TANKS. SURE IT'S WORTH 225 HP COST IT HAD PLUS THE FACT THAT ADC GAINED +5% PHYSICAL DAMAGE AGAINST TANKS/FIGHTERS/BRUISERS.

#SURE YOU FORGOT TO LIST THE PRICE REDUCTION ON ZEAL, THE CHANGES TO LORD DOMINIC FROM 15% BONUS PHYSICAL DAMAGE TO 20%, THE FACT THAT SHIV IS GETTING A BUFF FROM 120 TO 160 MAGIC DAMAGE, YOU ALSO FORGOT TO MENTION THAT RUNAAN'S IS GETTING A BUFF TO IT'S BOLT FROM 15% AD TO 40% AD. SURE 10% NERF TO AR PEN DESERVE ALL THAT.

The Yetii RiderApr 11, 20172 votes

That's only if you build all three items though. What if you build an untouched item like Frozen Heart?

WiegrafOfValorApr 11, 20176 votes

Frozen Heart isn't core for all tanks since not all of them use mana, that's why it wasn't touch as much as the other. Rito consider core tank items that gives HP + AR or HP + MR, not MANA + AR.

SagaxwikiApr 11, 20172 votes

Tell me which tanks (not bruiser or juggernaut) don't build item 3110 or item 3025 . The only ones I can think of are Zac and Amumu (but even he builds it sometimes).

OHminusApr 11, 20172 votes

Vayne Annie

duhhhhh

The Yetii RiderApr 12, 20173 votes

Lol, what? The only tanks that don't use mana are Gnar, Zac and Shen.

Sejuani Nunu Alistar Braum Leona Chogath Galio Gragas Ivern Malphite Maokai Nautilus Rammus Sion Poppy Skarner TahmKench Taric all use mana. They all love Frozen Heart. And the nerfed Last Whisper items means that Frozen Heart provides more defense for tanks against marksmen than it does currently. So it's a buff to us.

theunkwonApr 12, 20171 votes

you forgot that garen doesnt uses mana, and frozen heart is more of a situational item than core

RalanrApr 12, 20172 votes

You forgot that Garen isn't a tank but a Juggernaut.

The Yetii RiderApr 12, 20172 votes

Garen, Dr Mundo and Shyvana are juggernauts, not tanks. This update isn't concerned with them.

Frozen Heart isn't situational. It gives a huge amount of armor and cooldown reduction.

FireDrizzleApr 11, 20175 votes

{quoted}

75 HP PER ITEM

3 TANK ITEMS = 225 HP ( a little bit )

10% nerf to it doesn't really change much since AR values were increased.

LIVE:

= 60 + 50 + 50 = 160 45% BONUS AR PEN

160 - 45% = 88 ARMOR ( 72 ARMOR REDUCED )

PBE:

= 60 + 60 + 60 = 160 35% BONUS AR PEN

180 - 35% = 117 ARMOR ( 63 ARMOR REDUCED )

#THE HUGE NERF YOU ADC MAINS ARE TALKING ABOUT ONLY MEANS 9 MORE ARMOR TO TANKS. SURE IT'S WORTH 225 HP COST IT HAD PLUS THE FACT THAT ADC GAINED +5% PHYSICAL DAMAGE AGAINST TANKS/FIGHTERS/BRUISERS.

Your calculations show a 29 difference in armour. But the other changes you bring up are scary, especially the runnans change. Botrk and runnans will be mandatory on adcs.

edit: Riot are buffing last whisper vs tanks BUT MAKING IT LOOK LIKE A NERF! With those 3 example armour items you gain 29 armour compared to this patch but lose 225 hp! With the 5% extra damage vs high hp it is even stronger vs tanks than before

WiegrafOfValorApr 11, 20174 votes

edit: Riot are buffing last whisper vs tanks BUT MAKING IT LOOK LIKE A NERF! With those 3 example armour items you gain 29 armour compared to this patch but lose 225 hp! With the 5% extra damage vs high hp it is even stronger vs tanks than before

That's my point, Tanks are going to die way easier, while ADC mains keep thinking they are the one getting nerfs, egotistical bastards.

SpoofghoulApr 12, 20178 votes

you mean a net loss

since the hp was worth more And because armor still gets rekt by arpen more armor means they penetrate just as much as before

it's still not really an effective stat because of pen on pen on pen you still get shred by cleaver and penetrated by last whisper with less health, and yes a little more armor the effective health will remain the same

but ad got a bunch of buffs

think about it this way we had to trade health for armor

what if adc had to trade ad for crit, yes they got a little less pen overal but they got that damage compensated with better zeal items more ad overall and a bigger LDR damage amp which in the end will allow them to hit harder then before where tanks remain equally durable as before and lost a lot of their damage on top

not really liking this

Looks like midseason will be a buff to adc and a nerf to tanks, again. the only thing which we seem to be getting out of it is a buff to magic resist, and a massive one at that just look what will happen tanks in the midlane all the time since mages wont be able to kill them just saying.

What happens after is easy to guess, tanks dick mages mid then roam bot and dick adc's with the easier to reach powerspikes adc will snowball faster and with the damage amps they snowball harder.

Mages who cannot realistically be played mid anymore to being dicked by mr stacking assassins and tanks will end up in the support role where they can nuke adc's

If you think last season and current season's botlane clown fiesta's were bad you will be in for a rude awakening

Not the entire player base Favors marksmen the same way riot does and will find ways to screw them over, the botlane clown fiesta's will be worse until riot ends up over buffing and over nerfing everything until only adc's are being played and people will leave the sorry ass state of the game and find better things to do.

Riot is literally ruining their game with their bias balancing towards their own favorite champions, marksmen and esports.

i can already see the stupidity of the item changes it's going to be fun fighting an 800 armor rammus Chogath activating gargoyle plate and oneshotting adc's with 2k true damage Vayne with firecannon shiv again except this time there are no pinks and q crits reliably Deathdance abuse on anyone who can also build titanic hydra, prepare ur anus for tank zed and tank Shaco Midlane tanks with decent clears like nautilus roaming botlane 24/7 Oh and id i mention support mages shoving spells down your throat

You know where adc will end up? In toplane bullying melee's, oh whats that melee without mobility isn't being played anymore? well i guess it sucks to have to be adc then.

Does anyone honestly believe that people are not going full cheese with these item changes, anyone really think people are now going to play a balanced tank champion and being a good boy and build your average ''normal'' tank build so adc player can be happy and 3 shot you and feel good about themselfes while you struggle to both survive and kill caster minions, or do anything on your own really? Nobody on earth is going to do that lol Riot is delusional if they think that will ever happen If building tank doesn't work you will either end up with cheese pseudo tanks or just plain damage

people will find ways to make things not work as intended somehow Riot hasn't yet figured that out it seems

BlåbæretApr 11, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yQp362NJ,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-04-11T19:03:05.813+0000)

Tanks and Juggernauts are finally receiving a good MR item besides SV.

Implying that item 3111 item 3102 item 3512 aren't good. Another MR item is just a nerf to every AP champ and a buff to tanks who already take 0 damage from burst mages. I love playing Nasus, building only item 3065 and laugh as AP champs can't even dent my HP. Meanwhile I'm still getting shredded to pieces with 300 armor by AD champs.

theunkwonApr 11, 20176 votes

are you blind? thormail got killed now instead of 100 it gives 30, randuin got the new thormail effect but its still worthless, your supposed new items for tanks sucks big time aswell want to know why? cuz adaptive helm yeah it reduces dmg but insane ap mages like veigar, or burst mages will still take you down. spirite visage lowered aswell in the mr and health department. heck we the tanks cant even tank properly cuz every dam champion over dmgs us. learn your stuff first then try to give a proper response. and the only reason we use ga is to revive and keep fighting especially as a marksmen because even a fizz can 1 shot you if he builds right.

FTWolfApr 12, 20172 votes

Thornmail got killed? it turned into another item like you said. Tanks can now rush that along side a Tabis and be set against an AD laner do you even know how strong that is lol? That is absolutely ridiculous for just 2400 gold. You get 15% dmg to deal back -15% dmg from autos 60 armor and more for just 2400 gold. Now even TBC was nerfed giving only a max of 24% armor pen now. That means that your laner will have to choose do they want to actually be able to lane against you, maybe be able to kill you, but i doubt it, or do both at a heaping cost.

The DeckownerApr 12, 20176 votes

they need to rework crit, that is literally the core of the issue

SpecterVonBarenApr 12, 20173 votes

Thornmail won't have additional scaling from armor anymore though and once it upgrades into Randuin's Omen it will lose the 15% damage return which makes it altogether worse.

Not that I agree or disagree with your overall point, just wanted to point that out.