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100-0 burst on hypermobile champs is far too prevalent

Khristophoros··16 votes·3,137 views

It has gotten to the point that I'm not enjoying the game anymore. It makes me sad because I recently came back from a break. It's just not fun though. Let's discuss some problematic champions.

Zed - Commonly claimed to be "healthy". Let me explain why that is dead wrong.

  • First of all, his extreme safety. He can instantly disengage after he engages from about a screen away. On top of this, he is very safe in general thanks to his blink and he is manaless so you can always count on him having it. Finally, he is impossible to stop from farming. He will get high CS under extreme pressure. Overall, a ridiculously safe champion.
  • Second, his "counterplay" is in the form of long cooldowns. He can force enemies to blow long, important cooldowns by using his extremely good engage. But as I said above, he can pull out instantly if the engage goes bad. If he had to commit maybe I'd call him healthy, but the reality is that he either deletes somebody or forces out long CDs with very low risk/commitment.
  • Third, he's a strong split pusher which allows him to force situations where he can go for his very safe but deadly engages.

Rengar - He jumps on a target and does ridiculous near-instant burst. I don't care about the "!". It barely matters.

Katarina - Literally instant cast times on everything. Her ult counts too because it will do 1 tick instantly which means it contributes damage to her "mash all buttons really fast" combo. Add in the reset mechanic and you have literal faceroll pentakills. I'm chosing my words deliberately here. This is not a hyperbole. Furthermore, she can evade punishment that she completely deserves because all of her skills are instant. Like if she's going towards my ally and I know she's going to shunpo when she gets in range, even if I queue up a ranged CC skill, she will unload her full combo (albeit only 1 tick of ult) and then flash away before my CC lands on her. Oh and let's not forget that she is completely resourceless.

Fizz - Not quite as safe as Zed but still egregiously safe. When he wants to engage he attempts it with a long range skill (the ult) which does not put him in danger to attempt. Then he can deal burst damage while avoiding retaliation thanks to Playful/Trickster. He'd be healthy if he was a DPS champ but as burst he's degenerate.

Ahri - She still does too much damage without landing charm tbh. Her burst of mobility + burst damage is a toxic combination. I'd be ok with her if her ult wasn't high damage by itself but instead amplified her Q or reduced Q cooldown or something. She should have to land Qs because she has so much mobility. Too much of her damage is guaranteed.

edit: Almost forgot, Lee Sin! Lee does everything, we've been over this. The worst part is he's got assassin level burst. Like he does more damage than Talon given the same AD. Lee players excuse is "well I had to build glass so I can die!!" Yes, you can die. Welcome to every other champ in the game. Lee has the mobility to survive reliably anyway so don't even go there. He's broken. I don't think I need to say much more about him.

And pretty much every other assassin is an offender but at least they have to commit. But they still make the game very stressful because they have so much mobility combined with 100-0 burst.

I understand that "assassins are there to keep ADCs in check" but you know what, maybe it's time to make ADCs less dumb (remove crit from the game) and make assassins less dumb. Right now this game is really fucking bad tbh. Defense in general has been nerfed a lot and this leaves certain forms of offense in a very toxic position. Time to fix it.

31 Comments

FiendOfOne7 votes

What did I just read? Because wut.

Seriously, the entire counterplay here is 'use CC, win game.' Most assassins can be beaten with a single snare/knockup/stun. Having literally just played TF vs. Katarina and Akali, I can tell you right now that they reason we won is because I had my gold card ready every time one of them started a combo. No long CDs, nothing like that. Just held gold card and hid in fog of war,

Khristophoros2 votes

What did I just read? Because wut.

Seriously, the entire counterplay here is 'use CC, win game.' Most assassins can be beaten with a single snare/knockup/stun. Having literally just played TF vs. Katarina and Akali, I can tell you right now that they reason we won is because I had my gold card ready every time one of them started a combo. No long CDs, nothing like that. Just held gold card and hid in fog of war,

True but irrelevant.

It's much easier to lock down and kill all the other champs that aren't as mobile.

So I'd prefer a burst mage meta like where people actually have to be smart about positioning.

CreationFlaw1 votes

What did I just read? Because wut.

Seriously, the entire counterplay here is 'use CC, win game.' Most assassins can be beaten with a single snare/knockup/stun. Having literally just played TF vs. Katarina and Akali, I can tell you right now that they reason we won is because I had my gold card ready every time one of them started a combo. No long CDs, nothing like that. Just held gold card and hid in fog of war,

I think what I dislike is that even if you cc an Akali or zed for 1.5 seconds, and then they ult you, it really doesn't matter cause they have such a large AOE where they can get to people that it's pretty hard to run. Also, don't get me wrong, I've stomped Katarina's, but perhaps it's just the inattentiveness of everybody else when I ping MIA and then a minute later I see my 2nd most playrate in the entire game Lucian die because he didn't have any map awareness.

Khristophoros2 votes

What did I just read? Because wut.

Seriously, the entire counterplay here is 'use CC, win game.' Most assassins can be beaten with a single snare/knockup/stun. Having literally just played TF vs. Katarina and Akali, I can tell you right now that they reason we won is because I had my gold card ready every time one of them started a combo. No long CDs, nothing like that. Just held gold card and hid in fog of war,

I think what I dislike is that even if you cc an Akali or zed for 1.5 seconds, and then they ult you, it really doesn't matter cause they have such a large AOE where they can get to people that it's pretty hard to run. Also, don't get me wrong, I've stomped Katarina's, but perhaps it's just the inattentiveness of everybody else when I ping MIA and then a minute later I see my 2nd most playrate in the entire game Lucian die because he didn't have any map awareness.

Map awareness isn't guaranteed to work against such champions. That is why people play them. If that ADC truly had 0 map awareness he'd get ganked by an Annie without her flash up.

CreationFlaw2 votes

What did I just read? Because wut.

Seriously, the entire counterplay here is 'use CC, win game.' Most assassins can be beaten with a single snare/knockup/stun. Having literally just played TF vs. Katarina and Akali, I can tell you right now that they reason we won is because I had my gold card ready every time one of them started a combo. No long CDs, nothing like that. Just held gold card and hid in fog of war,

I think what I dislike is that even if you cc an Akali or zed for 1.5 seconds, and then they ult you, it really doesn't matter cause they have such a large AOE where they can get to people that it's pretty hard to run. Also, don't get me wrong, I've stomped Katarina's, but perhaps it's just the inattentiveness of everybody else when I ping MIA and then a minute later I see my 2nd most playrate in the entire game Lucian die because he didn't have any map awareness.

Map awareness isn't guaranteed to work against such champions. That is why people play them. If that ADC truly had 0 map awareness he'd get ganked by an Annie without her flash up.

I suppose not, considering Zed is one of the best tower divers in the game, :s. But yeah, I see your point.

Mitsu1 votes

What did I just read? Because wut.

Seriously, the entire counterplay here is 'use CC, win game.' Most assassins can be beaten with a single snare/knockup/stun. Having literally just played TF vs. Katarina and Akali, I can tell you right now that they reason we won is because I had my gold card ready every time one of them started a combo. No long CDs, nothing like that. Just held gold card and hid in fog of war,

This isn't about team fights, but rather laning phase -> mid game where he ganks a single lane with a point click cc with high burst due to devourer. Have fun pulling a gold card when you're laning and he walks up to you and gets you down to 30% with his ult and smite alone. He gets every lane fed like it's nothing, not providing any sort of counterplay. He is worse than LeBlanc with silence in terms of counterplay.

Fikuwu5 votes

You're in a tier lower than bronze. rofl.

Pinker 105 votes

Ahri -I'd be ok with her if her ult wasn't high damage by itself

I lol'd troll/10

Fed by Snu Snu5 votes

Damage has scaled exponentially too much and tankiness just doesn't exist anymore, so everything can burst everything and mobility is extra, instead of a trade-off.

Kuroi861 votes

Go home, you're drunk.

Khristophoros4 votes

I forgot to mention WW but he's so broken it's almost like Riot did it on purpose because "lol weedwick 4.20"

The Lord Cookie2 votes

I forgot to mention WW but he's so broken it's almost like Riot did it on purpose because "lol weedwick 4.20"

LOL why in god's name is this -2. He's at a fucking 60% winrate, my sides.

Khristophoros1 votes

I forgot to mention WW but he's so broken it's almost like Riot did it on purpose because "lol weedwick 4.20"

LOL why in god's name is this -2. He's at a fucking 60% winrate, my sides.

800 range targeted delete is obviously worthless compared to the brilliant strategies of the mighty boards 2.0 users.

CreationFlaw4 votes

I agree'd with Zed, and maybe the instagib Rengar build, but the rest is super easy to shut down. Don't get me wrong, it's a piss off, but it's how riot has decided to base the meta, and it's just one gigantic burst, safety, and mobility creep from the latest champions. I mean, Assassins are called Assassins for a reason, however, Zed and occasionally Fizz, are really basic champions with low risk and super high reward, the reason why I think Fizz is balanced is because a slow early game from mana costs and semi high cooldowns.

Khristophoros2 votes

I agree'd with Zed, and maybe the instagib Rengar build, but the rest is super easy to shut down. Don't get me wrong, it's a piss off, but it's how riot has decided to base the meta, and it's just one gigantic burst, safety, and mobility creep from the latest champions. I mean, Assassins are called Assassins for a reason, however, Zed and occasionally Fizz, are really basic champions with low risk and super high reward, the reason why I think Fizz is balanced is because a slow early game from mana costs and semi high cooldowns.

Fizz may be balanced but he's infuriating if he manages to be relevant at all. That means he's toxic.

Kuroi861 votes

Fizz is toxic partly due to his troll poll. Otherwise he's eh. His damage really doesn't pick up until you've got a good bit of AP.

Khristophoros1 votes

Fizz is toxic partly due to his troll poll. Otherwise he's eh. His damage really doesn't pick up until you've got a good bit of AP.

It's the combination of Playful/Trickster + mobility + burst.

A champion is never toxic soley because of one ability. Without burst he'd have to commit for longer to get kills and the momentary invulnerability would not be toxic. It is toxic because he only needs to be in there for a moment to kill a champion.

Fikuwu3 votes

Are you 10?

Trylobyte3 votes

Katarina - Literally instant cast times on everything. Her ult counts too because it will do 1 tick instantly which means it contributes damage to her "mash all buttons really fast" combo. Add in the reset mechanic and you have literal faceroll pentakills. I'm chosing my words deliberately here. This is not a hyperbole.

That is hyperbole. When I roll my face on the keyboard it doesn't get me Katarina pentakills. One time it centered the camera and another time it took a screenshot, but that's all.

No Fun Police2 votes

From all of those you mentioned, only Zed and Katarina may be considered broken, but not because of their mobility and burst, but because they both add insane safety and "get out of jail free card" in their kits.

Katarina - go in, burst as many people as possible using your resets, then - thanks to your reset - use Shunpo to get out to ally/ward/minion/jungle monster. If Katarina had to commit, she'd be much healthier. I don't mind champion who is able to pentakill in 2 seconds, as long as going in means commiting and is connected with substantial risk. Instead of nerfing her damage and cooldowns, her Shunpo should work the same way as Akali ult or Yasuo mobility - you can blink only to enemies. No ward jumping, no escaping to allies, you need to stick to enemies or use enemy minions. No free escape outside long CD flash.

Zed - even worse. He can burn his mobility spell (W) to do more damage and still blink out using ult shadow. Even if it's fairly easy to avoid being killed (thanks to Zhonyas, QSS, Barrier, Exhaust, well-placed CC), it's still almost impossible to punish Zed for bad engage - at least if you're not single target 100-0 burst mage like Syndra or Veigar. Safety on his ult is just insane - it's untargetability while dashing to you (you can do nothing to stop him - in fact, it works as delayed blink), then he can blink out to shadow he left. He has another blink on his W, making him even more untouchable. Zed would be fixed in my opinion if ult shadow disappeared any time Death Mark is not on someone. It means: if you avoid placing mark on you (Zhonya, Vlad pool, Fizz pole), he dashes but has no escape. If you remove the mark (QSS/Mercurial Scimitar), he immediately loses his shadow. When mark explodes and he didn't back off, shadow disappears. He can still go in, burst you down, get out and wait until you die while laughing, but that way he'll risk that you may survive his burst (Zhonya, Barrier, Heal, lifesteal and so on).

Rengar - you can see exclamation mark, so you can be prepared to use CC on him. Also, he can be CC'd while jumping (and thus, stopping his burst), so there is a counterplay.

Fizz - if he goes in using Q, he can be CC'd while doing so, similar to Rengar. If he goes in using trollpole, he has no escape for at least 5 seconds (2.5 if he Zhonyas). Also, Fizz needs several seconds to burst someone down, due to DoT damage on his W, during which he can be CC'd or you can heal/barrier up to not die.

Ahri - her dash can be stopped and has relatively long CD (even with 35% CDR - Athenes + DFG + mastery). Also, both her charm and orb are skillshots, you can dodge them if you know what to expect.

Lee Sin - his ward jumping seems a little too strong (but only a little), but he needs to land a skillshot to gapclose - this alone makes him much more balanced than Zed or Katarina (you can dodge, you can stop his dash with CC).

TL;DR: I agree with Zed and Katarina being too mobile (due to their insane safety), rest is possible to outplay/counter quite easily.

Mikal Pikal2 votes

As for kat, if they increased shunpo cooldown to just more than the reset amount she would be completely balanced. If she had to get two kills or wait an additional 2 seconds after 1 kill before she could shunpo I think she would be a lot more fair.

Khristophoros1 votes

As for kat, if they increased shunpo cooldown to just more than the reset amount she would be completely balanced. If she had to get two kills or wait an additional 2 seconds after 1 kill before she could shunpo I think she would be a lot more fair.

She'd still be obnoxious and that would also be annoying to kat players becaue resets wouldn't feel nearly as significant.

So I think that the first necessity is to give her abilities short cast times. That way she has to actually stop for a moment when she bursts somebody just like every other champion, which opens her up to punishment if she has bad timing.

Mikal Pikal1 votes

Hmm not a bad idea. As it is people say 'cc her' but its really hard when she is flipping around everywhere to even figure out where she is. her initial ult often times starts the assist/reset train that leads to devastation, so maybe a delay before her ult does its first damage would suffice. Or to spread out her ult damage more. It seems like half the damage is done instantly no matter how fast I get CC'd.

No Fun Police1 votes

With that change Shunpo would become unusable as harass tool in laning phase (Shunpo in, Q-AA-W, walk out), making her laning even harder than it already is. She may albo just build more CDR to get over this limitation. The problem is lack of commitment, Kat can Shunpo in, burst squishies and Shunpo out in less than a second. She's pain to peel against, unless you play Galio. Not to mention - it is a blink, not a dash, champions like Veigar or Azir can't stop her in or out with wall/cage. The only reliable peel against Kat now is targeted ranged hard CC (Taric, Warwick, Malzahar, Fiddlesticks - did I forgot someone?).

Revert ultimate damage and cooldown to previous values (more damage more often) and allow to Shunpo only enemies (even give her some damage reduction against shunpo'd enemy to compensate that and slightly improve her dueling ability) - she'd need to decide if it's better to get carries as fast as possible and risk to die afterwards/in the process, or to clean up after basically 4v5 fight (she's useless when not diving enemies) when everyone is low enough to pentakill them instantly.

Rebonack2 votes

Back when Eve got Eve'd her player base warned Riot not to turn her into a burst assassin because burst out of stealth is awful to play against. Riot made her a burst assassin and she was awful to play against. And they went and made Knifecat, too.

Regardless, I'm in agreement with the 'remove crit' part. Though probably not in quite the same way you're thinking.

I would suggest turning Last Whisper into a heavy flat penetration item and then making Crits ignore some (large) percentage of armor rather than dealing double damage. This would allow Crit-users to continue to function as hard-target smashers without making their damage against soft targets absolutely disgusting.

Because Rangers would no longer have such silly damage Assassins could be toned down to reasonable levels where Fizz isn't vaporizing folks with ~140 bonus MR anymore.

tbqh, a large part of the problem is Voidstaff and Whisper totally invalidating defense. If percentile penetration for skills weren't so easy to itemize for it would be MUCH easier to balance the value of defensive items.

Khristophoros1 votes

Back when Eve got Eve'd her player base warned Riot not to turn her into a burst assassin because burst out of stealth is awful to play against. Riot made her a burst assassin and she was awful to play against. And they went and made Knifecat, too.

Regardless, I'm in agreement with the 'remove crit' part. Though probably not in quite the same way you're thinking.

I would suggest turning Last Whisper into a heavy flat penetration item and then making Crits ignore some (large) percentage of armor rather than dealing double damage. This would allow Crit-users to continue to function as hard-target smashers without making their damage against soft targets absolutely disgusting.

Because Rangers would no longer have such silly damage Assassins could be toned down to reasonable levels where Fizz isn't vaporizing folks with ~140 bonus MR anymore.

tbqh, a large part of the problem is Voidstaff and Whisper totally invalidating defense. If percentile penetration for skills weren't so easy to itemize for it would be MUCH easier to balance the value of defensive items.

I didn't actually suggest a specific method of replacing crit. I just said remove it. They can figure out a solution to scale up autoattack damage. It's not hard.

Trading Aces1 votes

You forgot Akali.

Also Lee's taken a beating with the new Jungle.

Khristophoros1 votes

You forgot Akali.

I have a catch-all for other assassins because tbh fuck them all.

Actually you're right. She deserves a specific mention.

Akali's recent movement speed buff coupled with the S4 changes (stealth detection) were things which reduced counterplay options against her and it was only a matter of time that she'd prove to be problematic.

Matthevv1 votes

I was expecting leblanc, a little disappointed honestly. If you don't like assassins now, you should of seen them before. Riot has been toning down assassin's for a while now. This is nothing new.

Messaiga1 votes

I have to agree about the Rengar part, and I'd like to go into detail on it. As long as he keeps his stealth, he'll be toxic or useless. This is cause if he gets his kill then it's ridiculous because of the extremely low counter-play (He gains vision over you, move speed, can't even see him. What is there to do before it is too late? He dies or you do). When they remove the stealth they can fix Rengar, but I don't imagine this happening for a while since they thought they fixed him this time around.

The Whamboozler1 votes

We agree in exactly ONE department. Fizz is cancer. Complete cancer. He's just terrible design. It's easier to list off the things he DOESN'T have. Sustain. That's it. The little fish does absurd damage and snowballs insanely hard with very little effort. If he's ahead he's a nightmare of pain that you can't really stop, and even if he's behind he can delete a carry or squishy champ with ease and slip out safely. He's too safe for someone so bursty and full of snowball potential, and he abuses invulnerability, a mechanic which there is no real way to play around. He doesn't even have the super-weak early game of a champ like Kassadin. His mobility is gained very early making him able to pick and choose his fights from the very beginning of the game. He may lack some of his burst at level 2, but he is by no means weak.

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