Aatrox VGU fundamentally changes what kind of champion he is

Khristophoros·Jun 12, 2018·29 votes·9,664 views

Aatrox's original kit relies heavily on autoattacking and as such has a lot of sustained DPS as long as he can stick on a target. This is sorta gated by his Q and E cooldowns.

His VGU has pretty much nothing as far as autoattacking or sustained DPS. He just gets a bonus to AD from his ult and that's it. His passive is for one attack so it's basically an ability. His Q has 3 AoE knock ups and his W has a short pull. That feels more like a tank, although it seems that he's tuned to scale well off AD so it's more of an AD caster/bruiser with a lot of CC.

I don't think this is a good thing. Imagine if Irelia lost her Q when she was remade. Irelia's remake was true to her original gameplay identity and that's why it was well received.

56 Comments

five oh tree Jun 13, 201817 votes

That's the point. His whole design was an outdated problem.

KhristophorosJun 13, 20183 votes

Currently he's a strong solo queue champ and is pretty healthy compared to a lot of other shit that's strong

five oh tree Jun 13, 201816 votes

No, it's not. You're basically calling tryndamere healthy. They're not overpowered or necessarily underpowered; they're outdated. He's either overbearing or useless because of the feast or famine nature of his kit. And he falls off hard as hell because of how outdated he is.

Don't downvote me dumbass.

KhristophorosJun 13, 20184 votes

Tryndamere is relatively healthy too. He has clear strengths and weaknesses and counterplay.

five oh tree Jun 13, 201820 votes

No he's not? all he can do is splitpush because that's all his kit can do effectively anymore. He's not a healthy champion. No one thinks he is, that's why he's eventually getting a VGU?

KhristophorosJun 13, 20183 votes

It's called having strengths and weaknesses. He's good at split pushing and dueling, bad at teamfighting.

SlythionJun 13, 201815 votes

If you think the only thing that makes a champion healthy is if they have strengths and weaknesses, regardless of context or specifics, then having a conversation about champion design with you is a lost cause lol

SalamencęJun 13, 20182 votes

{quoted}

If you think the only thing that makes a champion healthy is if they have strengths and weaknesses, regardless of context or specifics, then having a conversation about champion design with you is a lost cause lol

No no no this guy has been around since beta, he obviously knows what he's talking about.

KhristophorosJun 13, 20183 votes

I was responding to your "all he can do is split push"

Some champs CAN'T split push. Are they unhealthy?

SlythionJun 13, 20181 votes

again, context and specifics matter lol.

There are plenty of champions that can't split push and are still unhealthy, and there are plenty of champions that can splitpush and are healthy.

Champion health is more about the how and what else rather than the "what". You seem to struggle with that concept though

For instance: Tryndamere can split push but he has no "what else". Splitting is all he does and all he can do, which creates an unfun and unhealthy game dynamic because he's essentially a super-saiyan Banner minion. It's something the enemy team has to deal with rather than interact with.

edit: I suspect you'll begin talking about dueling as a counterargument so I'll just get this out of the way. Tryndamere's "dueling" is very limited to specific champions and all of his duels are 1-dimensional. They play out the same exact way, which is unhealthy

KhristophorosJun 13, 20181 votes

It was the guy I was responding to who thinks that this is what determines health. My point in my response is that if it does, then champs who can only teamfight are unhealthy too.

And his dueling does help add more than splitting. Some champs cannot split or duel. They can only shove, roam, and teamfight. I don't see threads from bronze players bitching about them every day though.

The idea that Trynd is an outlier of bad design is perpetrated by bad players who don't know how the fuck the game works. There are plenty of champions that are on par with him design wise.

Could his design be better? Sure. That can be said for most champs though.

SlythionJun 14, 20181 votes

Trynd is not the only champion who is unhealthy in design, but he is both unhealthy and outdated. The two things he manages to do well are the only two things he can do, and he accomplishes both of them in a very unhealthy manor.

Whether or not he's an outlier depends on if you can name multiple champions who sit in a both unhealthy and outdated spot like Tryndamere.

Hexs FortuneJun 14, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Trynd is not the only champion who is unhealthy in design, but he is both unhealthy and outdated. The two things he manages to do well are the only two things he can do, and he accomplishes both of them in a very unhealthy manor.

Whether or not he's an outlier depends on if you can name multiple champions who sit in a both unhealthy and outdated spot like Tryndamere.

I feel there is space in the game for a champ like tryndamere. If all he wants to do is split then that's ok. We have over 150 other champs doing things as well. Just add a bit more counterplay and I feel he's ok.

KhristophorosJun 14, 20181 votes

Trynd is also fine in skirmishes, not strictly 1v1s. He just sucks in full teamfights. And that's fine. Not every champion should be good at teamfighting. Tryndamere creates enough map pressure to cover that weakness which makes him viable without needing to teamfight aside from specific situations where it's favorable for him.

What's your argument for him being "outdated"? What qualifies as "outdated"? To me when you say "outdated" I think of WW's original instant teleport ult which has always felt like a hacked together prototype that should have never made it out of beta in that state.

Death by GlamourJun 13, 20181 votes

And on the opposite end of the spectrum do you think utilty fighters (which aatrox will become) like camile and irelia healthy are healthy?

five oh tree Jun 13, 20181 votes

there's no such thing as a "utility fighter." I'm pretty sure that's just a tank.

Irelia and Camille are unhealthy due to extreme mobility, which aatrox does not have. Does he have a lot of CC? sure. Is it avoidable though? most definitely.; All of it is skillshot based cc. It raises the skill floor and ceiling and, in my opinion, increases game health.

MetalGearTeemoJun 13, 20181 votes

Aka - he wasn't selling

PANAGIA PARTHENAJun 13, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bardent Censer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yGHIfsVv,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-06-13T00:24:12.395+0000)

That's the point. His whole design was an outdated problem.

Could not disagree more with your thinking.

five oh tree Jun 13, 20181 votes

Well that's okay that you disagree, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but riot gave him a VGU because they agreed with me :)

rtbf223434721Jun 13, 20181 votes

Lately Riot decisions are all crap so i think you're failing in compliment yourself.

five oh tree Jun 13, 20181 votes

That wasn't an attempt to compliment myself, and just because some whiny silver players on the boards disagree with riot's decisions, they're crap? Ok bud. The creators of this game have deemed his kit unhealthy- in addition to most players.

rtbf223434721Jun 13, 20181 votes

... some silver players, gold players, platinum players, diamond players, master players and even challenger players... Rank shaming is so popular this days...

If the "creators" of whenever had always right your phone would be a NOKIA.

PANAGIA PARTHENAJun 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bardent Censer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yGHIfsVv,comment-id=000100020000,timestamp=2018-06-13T12:33:45.329+0000)

Well that's okay that you disagree, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but riot gave him a VGU because they agreed with me :)

Yes, that's pretty much the whole point with riot lately ^^. But yes, hope their "plan F" goes well, truly do.

NorthmundJun 13, 20186 votes

I am fine and welcome with any gameplay changes that will make him strong, but when they NERFED him innLORE and RUINED his VOICE! That is where i draw the line.

GaliöJun 13, 20184 votes

This rework ain't shit compared to Galio rework to be happy about that.

GaliöJun 13, 20183 votes

Lmao on who downvoted me. They dont know shit.

Hexs FortuneJun 14, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Lmao on who downvoted me. They dont know shit.

I took a trip through your post history and saw your rise and fall in excitement over the Galio rework. I feel for ya, but going by your Galio laden match history you have at least adapted.

Have an upvote

[galio-happy]

GaliöJun 14, 20181 votes

There wasnt a rise and fall on excitement. I was negative almost the entire time. As soon as I saw the trailer I was fuming.

Also my gameplay drastically decreased since the rework going from about 20+ hours a week to about 6 at most.

New galio isnt fun at all. I just play to play.

Hexs FortuneJun 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

There wasnt a rise and fall on excitement. I was negative almost the entire time. As soon as I saw the trailer I was fuming.

Also my gameplay drastically decreased since the rework going from about 20+ hours a week to about 6 at most.

New galio isnt fun at all. I just play to play.

hehe, you held out some hope for a time that the W would at least keep the healing aspects.

My experience with old galio isn't close to yours but he was the first ever legendary skin I bought. I dug the old gate keeper wingspan and soaring animations.

New Galio lost his "constantly flying" aesthetic, which is a shame considering so few champs feature it Kayle Anivia Janna . That's the aspect that most resonated with me.

GaliöJun 14, 20181 votes

The nit pickiest thing with me visually is not only how he looks completely different but why did they make yorick (a hunchback) and Galio (a leaning flying champion) both SO upright. Like they are wearing back braces. And why did they give gatekeeper such an ugly nose.

Hexs FortuneJun 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The nit pickiest thing with me visually is not only how he looks completely different but why did they make yorick (a hunchback) and Galio (a leaning flying champion) both SO upright. Like they are wearing back braces. And why did they give gatekeeper such an ugly nose.

Reminds me of my world of warcraft days, where players were asking for orc models that stood upright like the heroes.

I assume being hunched over looks bad to most folks and Riot wanted to make them both a bit more acceptable to the layman

Jet SettJun 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

This rework ain't shit compared to Galio rework to be happy about that.

Galio kept a whole lot more of his kit than Aatrox did. Aatrox is entirely different except for the ult. In every sense of the phrase "this rework ain't shit compared to Galio" is incorrect.

GaliöJun 13, 20182 votes

Galio kept 1 spell and looks completely different. Wtf are u talking about.

Jet SettJun 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Galio kept 1 spell and looks completely different. Wtf are u talking about.

His Q fills the same purpose and is effectively the same except without slow. It even comes out like a combination between old Q and old E. And his W is his old ultimate. Aatrox has his ultimate. So there's that.

GaliöJun 14, 20181 votes

Loll then aatrox Q fills the same purpose as his old dash. If u wanna play that game :p

Jet SettJun 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Loll then aatrox Q fills the same purpose as his old dash. If u wanna play that game :p

Not the same at all unfortunately. And of course this rework changed how Aatrox even works fundamentally.

GaliöJun 14, 20181 votes

Not as all with Galios Q either ya goof ball. I'm making fun of your dumb comparision.

Acheron16Jun 13, 20183 votes

I don't mind he becoming more ability centric, but this "rework" straight up makes him ignore autos except passive empowered ones.

I don't play Riven because I like having to auto-attack to get results, instead of rolling my face across the keyboard and getting kills.

I never expected the rework to turn him into Riven 2.0, SILLY ME, RIGHT?

LeoXJun 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I don't mind he becoming more ability centric, but this "rework" straight up makes him ignore autos except passive empowered ones.

I don't play Riven because I like having to auto-attack to get results, instead of rolling my face across the keyboard and getting kills.

I never expected the rework to turn him into Riven 2.0, SILLY ME, RIGHT?

Riven needs to auto-attack also to get results you muppet.

NyarlathοtepJun 13, 20181 votes

Aatrox's original kit relies heavily on autoattacking and as such has a lot of sustained DPS as long as he can stick on a target.

We already have champs like that. And we all know how healthy they are. Besides, this playstyle is boring. You only right click.

HåppyJun 13, 20185 votes

Managing Aatrox's damage/sustain paradigm shift and his "unstoppable btw" knockup/escape, along with ranged poke. He WAS a fairly good champion. Now? Noooot so much..

NyarlathοtepJun 13, 2018

LOL sure bud. You healed whenever you were low on hp. So much for your sustain. There is nothing unique for his generic dash (well maybe minus the unstoppable part). His so called ranged poke was useless after laning.

HåppyJun 13, 20183 votes

He healed for MORE whenever he was low on HP. He would heal no matter what. However, it wasn't something you wanted up all the time - The Blood Price was the main way to get your blood well up, and then after that you'd use the heal to sustain with your incredibly buffed stats.

NyarlathοtepJun 13, 2018

He healed for MORE whenever he was low on HP

Which is what i said. You always had w to heal you when you were low on hp. There was no thought behind it. At the start of a fight, when you are high on hp you didnt have the heal on. But when you went low you turned that on. No special thought behind it.

incredibly buffed stats.

Which BY THE WAY you couldnt even make full use of them since the "incredible buffs" are a bit of base ad and atk speed. Both of his w damage and e scale with bonus ad while his passive gave him base ad.

KhristophorosJun 13, 20186 votes

We already have champs who use abilities to deal their damage too.

NyarlathοtepJun 13, 2018

Oh i didnt know we have champs that rely on hitting the sweet points in order to be dangerous (darius is the only one that comes to my mind).

KhristophorosJun 13, 20184 votes

There's nothing wrong with his new Q. It's actually a pretty cool ability. The problem is that he doesn't rely on autoattack DPS anymore.

NyarlathοtepJun 13, 2018

Aa dps is pretty one dimensional and binary and frankly, too boring. All you do is right click someone to death.

LilxPaprikaJun 13, 20181 votes

all the types champs are covered pretty evenly I would say so making him AOE vs AA doesn't make a difference, so would be best to retain/honor his original type. clicking spells isn't difficult either, what I like in league is getting my timings right, great decisions too. And as long as the AA are satisfying I enjoy just watching them slice and dice away with just a few right clicks on my part. The third AA that chunked was sick. In fact Aatrox's old kit made the AA** actually interactive** in that you could toggle it to either heal or chunk them. It was a brilliant mechanic that actually made AA fun. Plus range during ultimate also modified how his AA worked similar to Kayle, something this game could use more of. I like how yasuo's third q has range to it too for example.

NyarlathοtepJun 14, 2018

clicking spells isn't difficult either clicking spells isn't difficult either, what I like in league is getting my timings right, great decisions too. And as long as the AA are satisfying I enjoy just watching them slice and dice away with just a few right clicks on my part.

Indeed. Landing them, however, is a different story. Besides, auto attacking from a balance standpoint is not so healthy.

In fact Aatrox's old kit made the AA actually interactive in that you could toggle it to either heal or chunk them. It was a brilliant mechanic that actually made AA fun.

Indeed, i loved that too. A shame riot changed it.