Riven has the same problem a lot of other champions have.

Arya Riven·Jan 25, 2017·55 votes·4,293 views

CDR itemization is too strong and too easy to get. Riven's use to build Ravenous Hydra, defensive boots unless snowballing, potential defensive item or BC with no CDR, etc.

Now she can get 40% cdr by 1 item plus boots. + or two items + or . Getting 10% from runes.

Giving Black Cleaver CDR might have been a huge mistake on Riot's part, as well as popping it onto almost every other AD/AP/Tank/Support item in the game XD maybe they felt because people loved urf so much they would make the normal game mode urf.

Anyway. I feel CDR being so easily accessible is part of why Riven is toxic in the eyes of some players, she doesn't have to choose damage, tankiness or CDR, she can get it all just from Black Cleaver, like every single other AD top laner. I personally feel this itemization has countered all of Riot's progress in dropping the total AD and AP available from items. Thus letting powercreep happen despite those drops.

How do you feel?

Sincerely - ribbitmain boingboing

147 Comments

KaiokoJan 25, 201734 votes

I get that Riven is frustrating to play against but I honestly don't consider her to be overpowered or anything. I think she's actually in a good spot now compared to where she's been before as she is no longer the go to top laner but without being a joke of a champion either.

We shall see how lethality changes affects her but honestly considering most Rivens go item 3071 item 3142 item 3074 as their damage items, I doubt she'll be buffed much by it.

dominusxJan 25, 20173 votes

For NA at least Riven players go for lethality builds combinded with Fervor so i dunno. i also prefer the Fervor/lethality builds over the bulkier TLD builds used by Koreans there's even a video about riven playstyles (high elo only).

KaiokoJan 25, 20176 votes

{quoted}

For NA at least Riven players go for lethality builds combinded with Fervor so i dunno. i also prefer the Fervor/lethality builds over the bulkier TLD builds used by Koreans there's even a video about riven playstyles (high elo only).

I'm not sure what you consider high ELO but at the Platt/Diamond level I see all Riven players go Black Cleaver first at the very least then it changes between Ghostblade and Hydra and occasionally a Riven will pick up an Edge of Night if she can make use of it and the enemy team is heavily AP oriented.

The point of the matter is though -- Black Cleaver is always her first item meaning the Lethality scaling slightly better at early levels really don't make a huge difference on her.

dominusxJan 25, 201716 votes

cdr in general is too accesible both for ad champs and ap champs. Ziggs to my eyes is problematic ONYL for the fact that he can jsut spam his ass off and zone people without even needing to worry about mana with Morello. Morello was a niche item to counter healing now it's a go to item that allows you to spamm your ass off and the GW is just a little spice to it. Nerfing morello would bring in line alot of mages.

Spaceman5pffJan 25, 201713 votes

Pre mage update, Morello was just the OTHER mana regen item. Everyone bought either Morello or Athene, based strictly on which was more gold-efficient at the time.

YES even in athenes metas, people would buy Morello VS Mundo. However, when Items get THAT niche, they often get removed / reworked.

Nerfing Morellos wouldn't "bring in line alot of mages" It would make the non morellos rush mages the new top-tier. Cassiopeia Lissandra Ryze Leblanc * Even now, Morellos isn't meta defining. Plenty of games see 2 mid-short range mages building item 3001 into eachother right away. Some champions forgo Morello for a Catalyst item, or a Tear, or both.

Nerfing Morellos right now would just narrow the midlane meta down, just when it was starting to be more diverse than it has been in a long time.

*Leblanc usually likes to rush Morello. However, in scrappy lanes VS another AP, it is common to see her default to Abyssal rush into Sorc shoes.

Pierce The VealJan 25, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Pre mage update, Morello was just the OTHER mana regen item. Everyone bought either Morello or Athene, based strictly on which was more gold-efficient at the time.

YES even in athenes metas, people would buy Morello VS Mundo. However, when Items get THAT niche, they often get removed / reworked.

Nerfing Morellos wouldn't "bring in line alot of mages" It would make the non morellos rush mages the new top-tier. * Even now, Morellos isn't meta defining. Plenty of games see 2 mid-short range mages building into eachother right away. Some champions forgo Morello for a Catalyst item, or a Tear, or both.

Nerfing Morellos right now would just narrow the midlane meta down, just when it was starting to be more diverse than it has been in a long time.

*Leblanc usually likes to rush Morello. However, in scrappy lanes VS another AP, it is common to see her default to Abyssal rush into Sorc shoes.

Honestly as a mage player I would like an option for a 20% cdr item that isn't morello's, but I'm forced into morello's because it's A) the only 20% cdr AP item and B) only AP cdr tem that gives 100 AP.

Spaceman5pffJan 25, 20175 votes

I'm in the camp that thinks: A) No NLR item should give CDR. and B) No CDR item should give 80+ AP.

Need to be forced to itemize for it. It should be a style.

Extremely hard hitting spells with meaningful CD's or Spammier spells with less damage.

Pierce The VealJan 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I'm in the camp that thinks: A) No NLR item should give CDR. and B) No CDR item should give 80+ AP.

Need to be forced to itemize for it. It should be a style.

Extremely hard hitting spells with meaningful CD's or Spammier spells with less damage.

As someone who plays both AD and AP champions:

Explain black cleaver (gives a ton of AD and CDR) and essence reaver (builds out of NLR, and gives THIRTY percent CDR).

Skins ProjectJan 25, 20172 votes

Excuse me! Nashors tooth much! I'm quite sure thats 80 ap, 15+ap magic dmg on hit 20% cdr and then attack speed

Edit TO be specific 50% attack speed 80 AP Then as a unique passive 15+15%of ap bonus magic dmg on hit and 20% CDR

All this for 3k gold, what an item.

SpecterVonBarenJan 26, 20171 votes

http://i.imgur.com/f7FdEdG.jpg

Skins ProjectJan 26, 20172 votes

^.^

Pierce The VealJan 26, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Skins Project,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yE2E3JsP,comment-id=0001000100000001,timestamp=2017-01-25T23:39:33.125+0000)

Excuse me! Nashors tooth much! I'm quite sure thats 80 ap, 15+ap magic dmg on hit 20% cdr and then attack speed

Edit TO be specific 50% attack speed 80 AP Then as a unique passive 15+15%of ap bonus magic dmg on hit and 20% CDR

All this for 3k gold, what an item.

Wasting 1100+ gold on attack speed seems bad.

Skins ProjectJan 27, 20171 votes

What... Just what... 50% attack speed is like one of the highest ones in the game rn... Might even be THE highest... Then the passive gives you bonus dmg so the attack speed is even more useful.

Pierce The VealJan 27, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Skins Project,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yE2E3JsP,comment-id=000100010000000100010000,timestamp=2017-01-27T00:04:58.278+0000)

What... Just what... 50% attack speed is like one of the highest ones in the game rn... Might even be THE highest... Then the passive gives you bonus dmg so the attack speed is even more useful.

On an AP champion that isn't teemo, ekko, or Diana...

Yeah that sounds bad.

Most of the champs we're talking about won't have a chance to auto attack. If they did, they'd be buying lich bane.

Skins ProjectJan 27, 20171 votes

._. Wut.... RAKA? GNAR? It's 3k gold. Even without the attackspeed and auto buff it's still a strong item.

Pierce The VealJan 27, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Skins Project,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yE2E3JsP,comment-id=00010001000000010001000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-27T23:40:53.390+0000)

._. Wut.... RAKA? GNAR? It's 3k gold. Even without the attackspeed and auto buff it's still a strong item.

Are you joking?

I'm pretty sure you're joking.

Seriously Soraka and Gnar don't use this item please don't show up in my games.

Skins ProjectJan 27, 20171 votes

I have a 100% winrate on raka top. And a good attack speed gnar is just broken (Rare as they are) His w passive is 100% ap scaling along with 80 dmg on every third hit with a % max hp higher then vayne.

That's just rude, just because something is off meta doesn't mean it's bad.

Pierce The VealJan 27, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Skins Project,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yE2E3JsP,comment-id=0001000100000001000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-27T23:45:25.483+0000)

I have a 100% winrate on raka top. And a good attack speed gnar is just broken (Rare as they are) His w passive is 100% ap scaling along with 80 dmg on every third hit with a % max hp higher then vayne.

That's just rude, just because something is off meta doesn't mean it's bad.

You're bronze 4 man I don't think that 100% winrate in anything means anything in bronze 4. If it is as good as you suggest, then go ahead and carry yourself out with it.

Skins ProjectJan 28, 20171 votes

Ok. That is just rude.

I'm sorry if we have dissagreeing opinions, and that isn't something I'll ever downvote for. But this is flat rude.

I don't really care what elo your in but consider how others will feel when you say something next time. I don't give a shit if it's the internet and hence you should get used to it, it doesn't necessarily bother me but this is flat disrespectful.

Don't just call out someones rank and act as if their opinion is hence irrelevant due to it. This is my account in which I can do what I want in what ELO I want.

If you REALLY want to go there, do I need to point out your elo because it isn't respectable either.

Pierce The VealJan 28, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Skins Project,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yE2E3JsP,comment-id=000100010000000100010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-28T09:24:54.060+0000)

Ok. That is just rude.

I'm sorry if we have dissagreeing opinions, and that isn't something I'll ever downvote for. But this is flat rude.

I don't really care what elo your in but consider how others will feel when you say something next time. I don't give a shit if it's the internet and hence you should get used to it, it doesn't necessarily bother me but this is flat disrespectful.

Don't just call out someones rank and act as if their opinion is hence irrelevant due to it. This is my account in which I can do what I want in what ELO I want.

If you REALLY want to go there, do I need to point out your elo because it isn't respectable either.

I'm not doing it to be disrespectful. Plus, I'll go ahead and state my elo this season: Bronze 2. It's no excuse, but I just did my placements this season. I've barely played ranked this season, and barely played any last season and the season before as well. I don't have the time to play a few hundred games to get to plat.

However, I've played in every elo up to plat. Up to gold I've played with my own capabilities, plat was by duoing. Long story short what works in bronze 4 might not even work in silver. Nashor's tooth is a great item, on champions who already naturally want attack speed and AP, however on anyone else it's not worth considering. I myself am a suckler for off meta builds. I've been playing shit like Nocturne mid since season 2. But simply put most off meta builds don't work, or just aren't as optimal as meta builds.

Skins ProjectJan 29, 20171 votes

Alright, I guess thank you for clarifying because your last comment really came of as being a jerk. Personally I'v been up to gold by just tryharding but I'v kinda lost the spirit + being that I'm in china the net doesn't help much T.T.

Pierce The VealJan 29, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Skins Project,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yE2E3JsP,comment-id=00010001000000010001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-29T00:10:46.499+0000)

Alright, I guess thank you for clarifying because your last comment really came of as being a jerk. Personally I'v been up to gold by just tryharding but I'v kinda lost the spirit + being that I'm in china the net doesn't help much T.T.

I feel you. I used to play from Turkey, and now I mived back to the USA only for them to change the server location so permanent bad ping is fun.

I also hate people judging me based on elo. Ultimately, my point is nashors tooth isn't good on most casters simply because they're better off building something else.

Skins ProjectJan 29, 20171 votes

xD replied to the wrong person man :p

But yea I get your point, I personally just find it as a generally good item that can be outclassed due to it's very interesting niche.

& where did the server move anyways, I heard it was Detroit but I'm not sure.

Pierce The VealJan 30, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Skins Project,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yE2E3JsP,comment-id=00010001000000010001000000000000000000000000000000000002,timestamp=2017-01-29T05:19:16.088+0000)

xD replied to the wrong person man :p

But yea I get your point, I personally just find it as a generally good item that can be outclassed due to it's very interesting niche.

& where did the server move anyways, I heard it was Detroit but I'm not sure.

Chicago I believe?

Oh I was confused and wondering how I offensed you so badly lol.

BlåbæretJan 25, 201712 votes

CDR being put on everything is one of the reasons why we have too much damage. It's too accessible at no cost.

deadlychuckJan 26, 20171 votes

Which ironically for a long time, and arguably even now, it's easier to access on AD champions than on mages, despite still falling under the "magic" tab in the in-game shop xD

WoonStruckJan 26, 20173 votes

item 3142 item 3158 used to be the only CDR an AD champ was going to get without going into tank items.

Game was way more balanced when both AD and AP had a hard time itemizing CDR without giving up significant damage.

Pierce The VealJan 27, 20171 votes

{quoted}

used to be the only CDR an AD champ was going to get without going into tank items.

Game was way more balanced when both AD and AP had a hard time itemizing CDR without giving up significant damage.

Agreed.

I used to have 20% cdr runepages set up. Now those are trash.

Blumpkin NationJan 25, 20178 votes

ADs need less access to CDR than APs, IMO. Especially resource-less champs. But you can't really balance between the fact some champs use energy/mana/nothing.

But I do agree that CDR has become too common on everything. (TF doesn't need 20%, BC doesn't need 20%, Morello doesn't need 20% but I would like to see a buff to Grevious wounds if they ever nerfed the CDR and another CDR item added for APCs that doesn't suck like Zhonyas)

FalconPawwwwnchJan 25, 20177 votes

Riven's problem is that she can chain her Q's with no real downtime because the cooldown starts after the first Q

What Riot should've done years ago which would've fixed a lot of her frustration is to reduce her base Q cd by quite a bit but make it start after the third q

RalanrJan 25, 20176 votes

I personally see nothing wrong with BC having CDR, it's a core item for most bruisers because of it.

Honestly when it comes to bruiser offense items, the two core ones are BC and triforce. Both offered a large group of stats that weren't as extreme as an item dedicated to one, making them kinda like jack of all trades items. This allowed bruisers to get their offensive item and then build tanky as a hybrid damage and durability class, rather than having to rely on full damage.

Personally I wouldn't have put 20% CDR on triforce. I think that pumped it up to being too powerful of an item (and it was already powerful).

As for CDR as a whole? Yes I agree that it's become too commonplace. Now personally I like this because having 40% CDR on Sion means I get to use my ult more often (though I can do with just 20% cdr if need be). Though I do feel it has shifted to more of a midgame stat with the removal of Brutilizer, which was a core early game item for Riven and the reason she had a bad time early season 6.

My only issue with Riven is that her cooldowns feel very low even without CDR. Now like most/all CDR focused champions, this makes sense because their kits couldn't function as intended if they were stuck with mana or a resource. That doesn't make it fun to fight.

Arya RivenJan 25, 20173 votes

A fair post, but just to clarify.

13s Q 11s W 10s E 130s R

At first tiers.

RalanrJan 25, 20175 votes

Q cooldown starts after first cast if I remember correctly. So it's not really 13 seconds.

Sexy Jack RabbitJan 25, 20176 votes

I don't think Riven is in much of a bad spot right now? She's not necessarily broken or overpowered like previous seasons, but she's definitely viable and no longer a joke. Her core items aren't really Lethality based to begin with besides item 3142 , and even then I've watched a lot of Riven's take it Third.

I'm not a genius Riven player by any standard, hell she's not in my last 20 games even. Imo if for SOME reason she comes out of these changes too strong, I could just see a small nerf of 2 - 3 off of her base AD to bring her back into being balanced again.

AhristocatsJan 25, 20175 votes

you want me to list the number of champions that are a problem with cdr?

cdr is cancer, in dota2 there is only one item giving cdr (25%) and is not accessible to everyone in league cdr used to be a strat, sure not one item gave cdr but multiple item but you had DRAWBACKS for buying those items

now cdr is everywhere it's impossible to not getting 40% cdr on everyone

by the way riven isn't a problem, at least she's less a problem than like 30 champs, please stop making those threads

Arya RivenJan 25, 20172 votes

I am agreeing with you however...

AhristocatsJan 25, 20172 votes

maybe she will become overpowered with lethality, but let's just wait for now instead of risking to imbalance the game more

Arya RivenJan 25, 20173 votes

I'd rather love tap her first, then when the changes go through she can be rebuffed if needed. Than see her become 90% p/b.

NineTailedMysticJan 25, 20175 votes

All I hear from you now the past few days is blah blah blah Dota. I despise Dota's reliance on AAs. With almost no CDR or ways to scale your ability damage outside of ranks, abilities felt very dull and there was just such a huge reliance on the Damage stat.

Big LincolnJan 25, 20174 votes

i agree tbfH

it really made a big issue when Cleaver went from juggernauts/tanky bruisers only (and primarily HP) to having 50 AD and the 20% CDR

also that the armor shred is good for your whole team and not just yourself

Unlucky47Jan 26, 20174 votes

It's honestly really nice to see a riven main (i hate you) speaking against their champion. I used to play a good amount of vayne right before that buff to her q. I said that it was going to be broken and I had no idea why they were doing it because full crit vayne already two shotted people. 2 patches later theres 500 threads complaining about vayne.

I agree though. I think black cleaver is simply too strong of an item. Good health, damage, armor shred and 20% cdr are just too good for one item. My main reason for hating riven is that it feels like she never dies. Between her e being on a low cooldown and giving her a massive shield, to her q also being really low and providing three dashes, I just find the champion next to impossible to fight.

ZT XperimentorJan 25, 20173 votes

Don't forget essence reaver, that allows marksmen to spam like mages without drawbacks.

SpongebobIsLifeJan 25, 20171 votes

little damage though.

NineTailedMysticJan 25, 20175 votes

70 AD, 20% Crit, up to 30% CDR is little damage?

Twitch ChatJan 26, 20172 votes

strangely CDR is only difficult to get if you're a tank even though its a really strong tank stat. FH being garbage probably doesn't help that.

ZURELLJan 26, 20171 votes

dude forget it. riot is a bunch of trolls

ZURELLJan 26, 20171 votes

but then again i find ekko yas riven and those high mechanic or "play master" champs to be pretentious and underwhelming and predictable and not fun at all and play the weak champs like gp and stuff who absolutely get destroyed by these champs if i play gp. (also gp needs a slight buff plz. jsut to help survive laning phase more).

ArakadiaJan 26, 20173 votes

GP's laning phase is like one of the best? Wat. Sure he scales hard, but he has a real safe laning phase.

ZURELLJan 28, 20171 votes

must be thinking about low elo. high elo tho....

ZURELLJan 28, 20171 votes

any hig elo players i watch playing gp they just get zoned out of lane and dived if the mu is in the gp's favor. low elo probably ok but im not tlking about anything too conspicuous. just a subtle buff maybe to merely help survive but w/e. opinion is all relative