Only 'cause something is frustrating doesn't mean it has to get nerfed

Malicious Metal·Jul 24, 2017·83 votes·2,826 views

I see people complain about the same things every day, usually aspects of a champion's kit that's annoying to deal with but part of the strength profile of a champion.

Biggest offender here is Caitlyn's traps.

They're annoying as balls to play against but they got counterplay and most importantly; It's Caitlyn's intended strength.

She's supposed to be great at Sieging and counter-sieging.

People need to realize that sometimes the stuff they complain about is working as intended.

Also, shame on you Gameplay boards. You made me defend Caitlyn even though I f*ing hate her guts.

123 Comments

Big LincolnJul 24, 201756 votes

being walled off from a lane is dumb

i'd like to play the game

Bob the ToastrJul 24, 201713 votes

Same. Why should the traps which can't be destroyed last just as long under turret as they do elsewhere? Most other similar abilities have disadvantages under turret: Azir : Sand soldiers last half as long Heimerdinger : Q turrets are prioritized by the turret and usually can be one shot by it Nidalee : Traps can be targeted and destroyed because turrets have true sight Shaco : See above Teemo : See above Yorick : Ghouls and Maiden are both prioritized by the turret Zyra : Plants can be one shot by the turret

So can someone explain why Cait's traps should have the full duration and effect and still be untargetable under turret when pretty much everyone else's similar abilities have disadvantages under turrets?

Edit: Lol so many downvotes.

I QJul 24, 20177 votes

Because they dont have HP, they are visible, they cant target you like Azir soldiers

Bob the ToastrJul 24, 20176 votes

But they're still untargetable and last like 90 seconds or something and she can put 5 of them under your turret.

ShahamutJul 24, 20174 votes

Wait till traps die, for Cait to leave, stay zoned, or step on them and get head shot. Counter play amiright? /s

Bob the ToastrJul 24, 20178 votes

I know right, only miss 3 waves of minions while you wait for them to run out

SociopathFriendJul 24, 20171 votes

While I think Cait's traps deserve some looking at, I can't help but find that half-assed arguments for both sides don't help

Cassiopeia : AoE poison that slows and you can't use abilities to get out of it (Turret does nothing) Elise : Spider-bomb that runs after you, slows, and does a ton of damage (Turret does nothing) Gangplank : Barrel sits next to you that slows, ignores armor, and does a ton of damage (Turret does nothing) Maokai : Sapling sits around to blast your for a percentage of your health and chase you down (Turret does nothing)

The game is not divided up into "Traps and not traps", there are plenty of abilities that likewise are not effected by the turret, none last as long as Caitlyn traps but none also take as long to come back up either.

The5lackerJul 24, 201712 votes

Tell me, do any of those abilities last 90 seconds?

SociopathFriendJul 25, 20172 votes

Do Caits? Only if you leave them and her alone.

If you: can't get a tanky support to clear them for you can't push the wave to get past them can't poke Cait enough to get her to back can't all-in her to kill her can't shield/sustain through the trap plus headshot

Do tell, what are you doing in lane exactly?

korg023Jul 24, 20171 votes

No its not dumb, its what happens when you play vs Cait if she is so annoying just ban her :)

HalcyonDwellerJul 24, 20175 votes

If the only counterplay to the traps is to not play, then there's something wrong.

Lincoln is right, getting zoned out so that you can't even play the laning phase is really unhealthy for the game. There's nothing fun about it, you don't even get to make meaningful decisions or strategies against it.

Teridax68 said it best:

{quoted}

This is a pretty succinct way to say it. Sure, champions are meant to be strong at certain things (and should be weak at other things too, Caitlyn), but ultimately this is a multiplayer game, and champions should be interactive as well as on theme. Caitlyn's traps are on theme, but are not interactive in many situations: in the laning phase, for example, even three traps can be an issue, because during that time it's not really possible for the laner to flank her or use an alternative route. Walling off an entire lane later on, particularly at choke points like the inhibitor turret, can be countered by dashing over the base walls, but that's counterplay reserved to mobile, survivable champions. The alternative is to push another lane, but that takes time and gives Caitlyn the opportunity to redeploy her traps. Effectively, the net result is that they remove interaction from the game and give players less options, instead of posing a challenge that can be overcome with unique tactics. The fact that the traps are indestructible until stepped on means taking the time to dismantle them isn't even an option either.

More generally, features in a video game should only be frustrating if they can be reasonably overcome. If a champion is frustrating because they have more reach than you, but suffer when attacked from an unpredictable angle, that's alright because there is a means of overcoming that frustration. If a champion has one really reliable effect, but is especially unreliable elsewhere, they'll be frustrating at times and easy to deal with at others, but will feel outplayable, so dealing with the frustration they present is a matter of adapting your play to the champion. When a champion outputs a lot of frustrating power, but doesn't feel like they can really get punished for it, that's when things turn bad, as is the case for Caitlyn and a few other champions in particular.

Teridax68Jul 24, 201718 votes

This is a pretty succinct way to say it. Sure, champions are meant to be strong at certain things (and should be weak at other things too, Caitlyn), but ultimately this is a multiplayer game, and champions should be interactive as well as on theme. Caitlyn's traps are on theme, but are not interactive in many situations: in the laning phase, for example, even three traps can be an issue, because during that time it's not really possible for the laner to flank her or use an alternative route. Walling off an entire lane later on, particularly at choke points like the inhibitor turret, can be countered by dashing over the base walls, but that's counterplay reserved to mobile, survivable champions. The alternative is to push another lane, but that takes time and gives Caitlyn the opportunity to redeploy her traps. Effectively, the net result is that they remove interaction from the game and give players fewer options, instead of posing a challenge that can be overcome with unique tactics. The fact that the traps are indestructible until stepped on means taking the time to dismantle them isn't even an option either.

More generally, features in a video game should only be frustrating if they can be reasonably overcome. If a champion is frustrating because they have more reach than you, but suffer when attacked from an unpredictable angle, that's alright because there is a means of overcoming that frustration. If a champion has one really reliable effect, but is especially unreliable elsewhere, they'll be frustrating at times and easy to deal with at others, but will feel outplayable, so dealing with the frustration they present is a matter of adapting your play to the champion. When a champion outputs a lot of frustrating power, but doesn't feel like they can really get punished for it, that's when things turn bad, as is the case for Caitlyn and a few other champions in particular.

The5lackerJul 24, 20173 votes

Of course, to make it worse, in addition to her uber-safety through traps, they decided to make her an even safer champion by giving her the highest range as well as a dash that slows chasing enemies. It's pretty safe to say the core design of Caitlyn, one of non-interaction and no-risk, moderate-reward, needs to go.

Teridax68Jul 24, 20171 votes

I agree to some extent: Caitlyn definitely has too much safety and reliability, as she has a whole bunch of tools to create space between herself and her target even when ambushed, and so definitely needs to have a lot of it shaved off. So far she has a malus in her kit that reduces her attack speed scaling, but even after her interaction with Runaan's was nerfed, it's still a bogus weakness, and doesn't stop her from outputting tons of damage late-game or kiting enemies. There are probably a great deal many ways to approach Cait, but I think in the end she needs to offer the possibility of really catching her off-guard and bypassing her defenses, as currently it feels like she always has more options than her attacker.

The5lackerJul 24, 20173 votes

Item one on page one, written in gold letters: Remove her dash. High range, high CC characters don't need dashes to be safe. It's totally overkill.

ElikainJul 24, 20171 votes

So, you want to tell me that Anivia and Taliyah are also problems since they can also wall you off from certain objectives when needed?

Big LincolnJul 24, 20172 votes

they're pretty annoying

Acheron16Jul 25, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y9WQWoTk,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2017-07-24T14:28:22.343+0000)

being walled off from a lane is dumb

i'd like to play the game

There are atleast 2 other lanes that you can push and even then, she can't completely wall of a lane, her traps are too thin.

Tails9016Jul 26, 20171 votes

Well go to mid la- Anivia "Hi"

Sahn UzalJul 24, 201715 votes

Aye, that's why her Attackspeed is below average now. She's great at sieging, but won't have as much DPS as other ADC's in a teamfight scenario.

karolmoJul 24, 201715 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y9WQWoTk,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-07-24T09:16:40.270+0000)

Aye, that's why her Attackspeed is below average now. She's great at sieging, but won't have as much DPS as other ADC's in a teamfight scenario.

Who needs DPS when you can 2-shot enemy carries

AFilthyCaitMainJul 25, 20171 votes

Why are you in range of getting two shot if youre in the backline

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/242/059/58b.png

The5lackerJul 24, 20174 votes

If the only way to balance a champion is to nerf their ability to perform their core role into the dirt, perhaps there's some underlying problem with the champion that needs addressing.

Evil YasuoJul 24, 201710 votes

We agree on something. I'm not a fan of nerfs to begin with. Every champion deserves their tools to do their job correctly, even if it's "annoying".

SnakDatSmilesBakJul 24, 20174 votes

Sometimes champs have to be nerfed. Sometimes they have to be buffed. But, you know this right? Champs can't always be perfect, yes every champ deserves their tools but sometimes the tools are just not fun. Fun is a big part of balance, because at the end of the day, this is a game.

The5lackerJul 24, 20171 votes

Here's the thing, though: Not every job needs to be done. There doesn't need to be a champion who can continuously zone out an area from complete safety. That's not necessarily healthy for the game.

MrHaZeYoJul 24, 20174 votes

Indeed.

BańgJul 24, 20174 votes

Just wanted to let u know all the high Elo players think Caitlyn is busted. Now idk about u but ur opinion doesn't really mean much when it's already a fact that the second Caitlyn is picked someone playing a melee champ is going to have a bad time late game.

Her traps grant her too much and are used carelessly .

Yea here's a tower I wanna take let me just invalidate melee champs from going near it haha working as intended tho xD

Caitlyn needs to have her traps given an actual cd and the amount she can use near a tower reduced .

AhristocatsJul 24, 201714 votes

cait is busted, and needs a nerf

this does not mean her traps need a nerf, it's her strength

BańgJul 24, 20172 votes

u nerf those traps and I'm fine with her the way she is.

DeathBurstJul 24, 20174 votes

You'd be fine because she would've lost her identity. And just look at all the recent nerfs they already made, they touched everything BUT her traps. Malicious Metal and Rubick are right.

BańgJul 24, 20172 votes

Her identity is making melees useless?

No it isn't. Traps not blocking turrets doesn't do Shit but make her fair.

Malicious metal is not right

Malicious MetalJul 24, 20178 votes

She makes ranged champs useless too.

Her Traps are a sieging tool and her dickin' melees isn't exclusive to her. Every melee champion struggles when it comes to Zone control champions and range.

Anivia for example screws over Melees just as hard and yet everyone seems to be fine with her.

BańgJul 24, 20171 votes

ANIVIA??? Dodge the stun and the slow is manageable.

Dear god comparing anivia to Caitlyn when it comes to Melees LOLLLLLL

The wall lasts for 4 seconds tops and I can wait it out. Also it doesn't let her do extra damage to me from a mile away

Malicious MetalJul 24, 201711 votes

She also has a Wall who dicks everyone who doesn't have mobility.

I don't usually pull the rank card but in the elo you're playing people don't know how to really utilize Zone control and play their champs to their full efficiency.

SnakDatSmilesBakJul 24, 20174 votes

I understand that she has an identity as a long ranged sieger. I am fine with her putting traps under towers. The only change I think she needs is a clarity change. Her traps should be outlined through your tower so you don't have to move your screen every time you want to look at the trap that is on your screen anyways.

NielarkenJul 24, 20173 votes

So by this logic why was soraka healing gutted? When that is literally her whole kit .

SkorchJul 24, 20175 votes

The difference is MM is saying her Traps are fine but annoying, meaning he is saying it is balanced, just annoying. Sorakas Niche at the time was still too strong.

More evidence of this being people want Cait to lose her seiging and zoning potential, not just a nerf. While Soraka got nerfed, she still has the same theme.

SkorchJul 24, 20173 votes

Yasuo ?

SnowplosionJul 24, 20173 votes

https://media.tenor.com/images/9dac8192b4b475477730e2e00bbcabef/tenor.gif

McsquzzyJul 24, 20172 votes

The solution here is very clear to me. Buff every champ until they are balanced. No more shall we hear about nerfs

TimX24968BJul 24, 20172 votes

Me whenever someone says Tryndamere needs a rework/nerf

Why are you whinning about the champ being a nightmare to deal with, when he kinda is supposed to be that way? (Just look through his quotes for why).

KloqdqJul 24, 20172 votes

I just want to see him be more than just a dude that is fapping top as he takes farm. Doesn't really fill like a blood boiling warrior with the way he currently works. Imagine if Guts didn't fight any monsters in Beserker or avoided battle all together. It would be a VERY different feel. That's why he needs a rework. His theme doesn't fit to his gameplay.

TimX24968BJul 24, 20172 votes

riot already stated that when there is a disconnect between theme and gameplay, his gameplay would take place over it. Also, committing to your "theme" doesn't mean common sense doesn't apply.

KloqdqJul 24, 20172 votes

Tryn doesn't really have meaningful gameplay though? All he does is spin to people, autos them and Ults. His ult is probably his biggest identity and in terms of gameplay, it's not the greatest. His kit just needs a big rework.

The EcdysiastJul 24, 20172 votes

Yes, but sieging isn't something ANYONE is supposed to be able to do during the early game.

And just because something is working as intended does not mean that the intention is correct. Case in point, Sated Devourer didn't have any bugs by the time they removed it. It did exactly what was intended, and that was broken as hell.

SkorchJul 24, 20174 votes

It being strong wasnt why it was removed, they didnt like people like Yi "Chill ima just farm 30 camps before first gank"

ShadowParkerJul 24, 20172 votes

Thank you for saying this.

korg023Jul 24, 20171 votes

Finally this! Someone with common sense. Most of the time annoying enemy team with some annoying ability is fun, people enjoy fun, this game is meant to have fun! If Riot nerfs everything people cry about then we will have champions running around offering free cookies since its not annoying!