@Meddler: What are Lee Sin's "levers of balance"?

darkdill·Mar 16, 2015·19 votes·1,393 views

You gave us a good explanation on Bard's balance levers a little bit back, which really helped to show us how he can be tweaked for balance purposes.

On another note, it's no secret that people are hugely divided on opinions about Lee Sin. Some say he sucks if he doesn't snowball early, while others think he is oppressive as an early jungler due to how hard it is to counter his versatility.

And yet despite all the debate, Riot doesn't significantly change him. This leads me to believe that his balance levers are either "hard to pull", or that he just doesn't have enough to pull in the first place.

Can you give us some insight as to what balance levers Lee Sin has? It'd certainly help to give more context to his current power level.

11 Comments

DeadXeraMar 16, 201512 votes

Here's a list I can think of:

Base Stats (obviously)

Passive:

% AS given
Energy Return
Duration of buff/# of hits
Cooldown between procs (currently 0, could be added)

Projectile Base Damage
Projectile Scaling
Projectile Speed
Projectile Range
Projectile Width
Recast Base Damage
Recast % HP Damage
Recast Scaling
Recast Dash Speed
Recast Range
Spell Cooldown
Min/Max Time Limit between 1st and second Cast
Reveal duration

Cast Range
Dash Speed
Stats given to Lee/Target
Shield Base Strength
Shield Scaling
Duration of Shield / Stats
Spell Cooldown
Min/Max Recast Time limit
Ability to cast to minions/wards, adjustments made when doing so (like shorter CD for champion dashes, or increased/decreased stats based on target)
Ability to self-cast

Damage
AoE size
Recast Range
Slow % and duration
Reveal range/duration
Min/Max time between recast

Damage on Target
Distance moved
Knockback Speed
Secondary target damage
Secondary target Knockup duration
Cooldown
Cast Range

I'm sure there's plenty I'm missing, though.

DeadXeraMar 16, 20151 votes

Not sure why only one of my lists became bulleted... Bleh.

PæanMar 16, 20151 votes

Jeeezzzzzz man it's basically unreadable now. Beats what I was gonna say though... Lee's "power level is over 9000".

So good job giving real information xD

KaisadiIIaMar 16, 20152 votes

You need to leave one empty line before the list.

RetillinMar 16, 20156 votes

Oh there are a LOT of them. It's not that Lee has things that can be used to balance/shift his power. It's that Riot does not wish to do it.

SmokingPuffinMar 16, 20154 votes

Lee Sin has no shortage of balancing levers. That tends to happen when you have all the mechanics. Let me highlight some that are of particular interest for tuning:

Passive AS steroid size
Q projectile speed and range
W sustain strength

The problem with Lee isn't that he's OP. It's that he's excessively generalist. He can adapt to whatever change you make to the jungle, because there isn't anything he's particularly bad at.

ThePlasticSporkMar 17, 20152 votes

Technically speaking, Lee as a champion probably has the most balance levers you could toy with to change his power level in the game, but number of balance levers =/= good design. His kit does everything and has almost everything in it, so technically any balance lever that could be used on one champ can probably be used on Lee.

MarshallBanannaMar 17, 20152 votes

oh, he has a ton of levers of balance, arguably more than any other champion.

Riot simply decided not to pull on any of them.

RrettMar 17, 20151 votes

OMG. Lee sin is balanced.

His winrate is a couple of points below 50.

I never had a problem playing against one for 3 years now.

RisottoNeroMar 17, 20151 votes

Easy. Go here http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Lee_Sin/Background and look for patch history and look at all the nerfs and things they took away from him.

And if you want to believe people here they still need to nerf to half his ratios and base damage and remove other things before he's considered balanced.

TotalJerkMar 17, 20151 votes

Can you guys stop with the obnoxiously insinuating application of quotation marks? Second, you know damn well what his levers are, you're just doing the thing where you stealth diss Riot's competence while self-righteously making an indirect demand for a response in a way you know probably wont get one, allowing you to "call them out" for not replying. If you Lee Sin haters really want answers from Riot, stop asking disingenuously.

The reason most people consider Lee Sin among the most well-designed champions in the game is the fact that he possesses a metric ton of balance levers. Whether these levers need to be tweaked and if they are properly tuned is another thing entirely. I'm not saying he's fair, a champion can be perfectly designed and tuned horribly, as shown when Riot released... damn near every champion. They're terrible with the numbers part.