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Murkshpere, support and other item questions

StoryDuck··19 votes·1,421 views

http://i.imgur.com/IaXEQwl.png

These were in the Black Market Brawlers game mode a long time ago. It felt like a rewarding way to earn some extra gold. Granted, this was before the items that grant %bonus shield and heal but I was wondering why these items never showed up in summoners rift. I'm curious from a game design perspective because it was a support item that was so enjoyable to use. I thought the interaction of shield to gold was interesting and unique. I felt that some supports liked the item and other didn't so I never felt it was a one item fit all.

So, if a Rioter has some time: What were the major issues with the Murkshpere item line?

Have you tried other unique ideas like giving gold for CC? (can you share some examples?)

What are some of the issues with support items that give gold?

There seems to be a direction with support itemization in that support items are gaining more power in activatable abilities rather then passive abilities, is this a design choice or are there other problems with creating passive abilities on items?

What goes into adding a new item to LOL?

Some MOBAs do not reduce the power of support type characters but rather allow them to be a focus of power (got to kill the healer first), do you feel it is a better design to have supports weaker?

What do you see as the pros and cons of stronger/weaker support characters?

27 Comments

Fashion Mage6 votes

I thought the same thing when I saw those items. I'd love to have them be available. The focus on shielding allies makes it feel like -the- enchanter support item, whereas the Ancient Coin line doesn't really do anything particularly supportive for one's allies.

StoryDuck5 votes

I would completely vote for this to replace Ancient Coin line. It was much more interactive and fun.

HalcyonDweller4 votes

Great post, now I'm curious about all these questions too!

StoryDuck1 votes

Lets hope a Rioter has some free time and can answer these.

THE RlVER KlNG3 votes

Honestly I'd take BMB items over the new ones Riot has introduced over the last couple of seasons any day

StoryDuck1 votes

A lot of those items were a ton of fun. It was this one that really spoke to me though and I was sad that it has never found it's way to Summoner's Rift.

Meowsic2 votes

as supp main i like this but its a little over tuned 20 cdr from your supp item is to muchhave it build out of giants belt instead of kindle gem or even make it build out of ageious and make it give mr and aroumr instead of hp would be nice for tanky supps that cant go in early cuz they start squishy

Silverjust3 votes

But there should be also more options for tanky supports to get CDR

StoryDuck2 votes

This would be nice. Leona in particular would love some items like that.

StoryDuck2 votes

Actually, I felt an item that gave no stats but mana regen and CDR was refreshing as an option. You could opt into that quick 40% CDR with this item path but you need to watch how squishy you are. It enhanced utility early instead of durability. There is already too many support items that give minor tanky stats.

Nymzo2 votes

I think the reason why Riot didn't let us have this item is because it would probably outclass the other 3.

It requires a little more skill since you have time the shield right but with 20% cdr and 150% base mana regen, everyone would buy it, whatever that you are an enchanter, a disrupter or a warden. Keep in mind that the upgrated support items, whatever it's an eye or not, give a maximum of 10% cdr and/or 100% base mana regen.

StoryDuck2 votes

I never really liked it on tank supports or mage supports. There was better options. The lack of any tank stats made it a bit weak for tanks supports and lack of AP didn't offer much for mage supports. It would feel good at early levels as just a Murksphere but it felt like a semi-dead item when I went to build it up. Of course, now with the other +%shield/heal items it would be pretty strong all around.

Fondling Gems2 votes

I think it is because the item was a good pick for any top laner in an unfavorable matchup. Nasus could just pick up one of these and run in to get 1-2 Q stacks. Suddenly you can't deny him as well. First of all he now has a shield you have to break through to even damage him, and the only way you can force him off farm (aka gold) is to threaten him with damage which he then turns into gold anyways.

It led to a situation of being a decent pick into any bully because it let you grab more farm than before and make up for farm that you would normally lose anyways thanks to the gold/5 and shield>gold passives.

It was a fun item, but too much of it's power rests in the hands of your enemies, for example you can't get anything out of it in a farm lane where the enemy isn't trying to fight you at all. In the same deal though it hard counters any lane that tries to force you off farm while being too easy for non supports to buy. Gold/5 is a really powerful stat when the item it is attached to is usable, and there isn't really any top laner that can't use a 60 health shield.

StoryDuck1 votes

A simple fix to be honest just make it that all self cast does not generate gold and not just damage from monsters. That said, I never thought of that (or noticed you could do that)! Lol, wish I tried some other solo laners with that item. I wonder if BMB will ever return.

Fondling Gems2 votes

Honestly I never tried it either, however I played almost exclusively support at the time and I tend to dig deeper into the balance of items when it comes to questions of whether or not they should be added than when it is just an alternate game mode silliness item.

I still think the item is too dependent on enemies wanting to fight. With something like item 3303 you are the one who generates the gold, with Murksphere you are dependent on enemies attacking you and furthermore you punish them for interacting with you.

Changing it away from generating gold on yourself would also hurt tank supports. They were the main ones buying it and that change makes it highly inefficient for a tank support to buy until it is the finished item.

StoryDuck1 votes

Hmm, that is food for thought, does it discourage interaction? I'm not sold it does but it certainly merits some more contemplation. how do you feel it compares to the Ancient Coin line?

Fondling Gems2 votes

It promotes more action from the murksphere user, but I found that near the end of BMB people just stopped fighting murksphere supports unless they could outright kill them. It ended up with a really aggressive tank support who wasn't punished for messing with enemies and enemies who didn't want to punish the tank support. Plus I noticed a couple people were hitting champs once to aggro minion wave then shielding themselves for gold and jumping in a bush to break aggro just before the shield broke.

There is also the whole 15 second shield thing and the mana regen it gave let supports mess around a lot with abilities. It was fun for the user but super punishing in terms of how much gold it gave and laning presence it had. Pretty anti fun for opponents who figured out how much of an advantage the item gave if you tried to fight near the user. The final form was also just super powerful. Somewhat smaller AOE and shield than locket, but usable multiple times per fight. Roaming supports also would use it to keep their jglers healthy as they went by because the 15 second CD didn't punish you for doing that.

StoryDuck1 votes

Hmm, interesting. I found it was really strong as just a Murksphere on tank supports in early but that the lack of defensive stats took their toll later when upgrading the item line. On the other hand playing as an enchanter it really helped out a lot to get that 40% CDR really quick with the Globe of Trust.

Hawkefire2 votes

I think the problem with the murksphere items was they were generating a massive amount of gold (as in, muuuuuuch more than the other items).

Mind you, I am going off of memory here, and it has been a long time since we had these items, so it is entirely possible that I could be wrong on this.

Why did they not simply nerf the gold generation then, since that seemed to be the biggest issue with it? Well...frankly I don't know.

Maybe they were afraid that they would have to nerf the gold gen by such an extent that it would feel bad as an item?

Frankly if that is the case though, then I would argue that they should be buffing the other gold generating items to compensate.

I still don't understand why they cannot find a way to make it so that a duo lane partner cannot earn an equal amount of gold as his lane-buddy, and while I am aware that a pretty significant amount of items would probably have to be adjusted to compensate for that, in the end I would still feel that such a change would be necessary so that we stop regarding support as little more than the unwanted but desperately needed 5th wheel.

StoryDuck1 votes

They need to be careful about having support items that grant as much gold as a laner because the question then becomes "Why have a jungler?" This has been off-set by other MOBAs by making the jungle camps more rewarding allowing stronger support characters. It comes at the expense of the unique strategic role a jungler plays as all the camps become team objectives and not just farm for a jungler. Another method some MOBAs use is that support itemization is Highly specialized for supports. Granting massive bonuses to healing and shielding as well as bonuses for CC.

There are other ways this has been balanced as well. Riot doesn't follow any of these though and has supports that are intentionally weaker then laners. This seems counter productive to me as it means one role in LOL is made to feel weak and it is this reason that I would love to hear their feedback on what support is supposed to be. For all I know they are slowly trying to get supports to laner strength or have plans to do so in the future. With how LOL is now I bet they have some really interesting ideas/opinions on the matter.

Hawkefire1 votes

Well, if the jungler ends up making as much gold as a laner, and a support makes the same amount as a jungler (IE, the support also makes as much as a laner), then frankly I don't see a problem here.

Sure, it means that we might see duo laners make a scene, however that probably wouldn't become mainstream simply because you would be giving up far too much objective control and you would also be giving up a lot of roaming potential as well.

Friendly Ram1 votes

i'd love if murksphere was added to the targon line and/or be a sub for forbidden idol in certain items.

StoryDuck1 votes

I would just love if it was added. I think in the tank line would be a bit much but as it is (with a few tweaks) would be pretty cool.

DarkRitual1 votes

I'd rather supports just be stronger champions than to have more must-buy item actives shoved down our throats.

Heroquet1 votes

Janna was incredibly fun and probably pretty abusive with this in the early game.

Come and trade VS two shields at lvl 1.

xxxDogmanxxx1 votes

https://i.imgflip.com/1m0aiu.jpg

Borbland1 votes

I really loved these items too.

Even though, if you realisticly think about it, the fact it has no penality for farming with that item makes it unlikely to be released on regular SR unless they change it.

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