@Riot: What will replace DFG as a high AP item for casters now that it's being removed?

Yoella·Jan 14, 2015·7 votes·6,875 views

I have mixed feelings about DFG being taken away. On one hand, the 15% max hp as magic damage + taking 20% more magic damage for 4 seconds seems way too strong, on the other hand it's a powerful, and often core, AP item that's now not in the picture. This is going to hurt AP champions a LOT just regarding the stats. There had better be a replacement item going online at the same time or I'll be pissed off.

I feel like a smarter decision would've been to nerf it, make it 120 AP + 20% CDR (or 15 magic pen), but change the active to be like BORK's 10% damage/self heal, except in magic damage instead of physical, and get rid of the 15% max HP magic damage and 20% extra magic damage for 4 seconds.

So, Riot, if any of you would be so kind to respond, are there any plans for an item to be released that will take the place of the 120 AP 10% CDR DFG? The active was overwhelming, but the core stats were essential for many AP champions. If so, how long will we have to suffer between the removal of DFG and the addition of said item?

56 Comments

SmokingPuffinJan 14, 201510 votes

Probably they don't know yet.

If you're removing such a staple item like DFG, you have to see what champions just flat out fall out of the meta. Then you figure out what they need to come back in. Maybe it's individual champion buffs; Ahri is an example of a champion that was probably more fun and interesting before DFG Ahri was a thing. Maybe it's a new item; Syndra buys DFG often but really all she wants is a huge AP stick. Maybe it's a rework; Veigar is totally married to DFG because the only thing he can do is 100-0.

Anyway, the point is that it's a process. They need to figure out where the problems are, then figure out a solution to those problems. We can speculate, and we'll probably be right about some of it, but it's better to get the information directly and concretely.

agbudarJan 14, 20155 votes

yea that never happens champions that fall flat out of the meta usually stay there until something happens that gets them back

how long has urgot remained non meta? how long has morde remained non meta? so many champs suffer due to balance of riot

YoellaJan 14, 20152 votes

I hope they don't rework Veigar, I love that little guy even without DFG.

CupcakeTrapJan 14, 20153 votes

{quoted} Veigar is totally married to DFG because the only thing he can do is 100-0.

Actually, DFG allows Veigar to do other things. Usually, Veigar has to decide between focusing on trying to get in position for a 100–0 erasure of a valuable enemy squishy and helping his team with his stun and meteor. DFG allows one to go double-or-nothing and try to accomplish both, because DFG+Q+R can (if you're ahead) one-shot a single squishy target, leaving your stun and meteor to help your team in the teamfight.

I think it's a popular misconception that Veigar is just a "100-0" Champion. That's an important part of his gameplay, but if all you do is walk around trying to catch people in 100-0 EWQR rotations, you're going to do rather poorly with him. That's the first trick in Veigar's arsenal, and it's always an important one, but as awesome as it looks it's not really that impressive. Lots of Champions can kill one target. You're not going to carry very hard if every fight you just trade yourself for the enemy mage.

Honestly, I'm worried that they're going to rework him into a rather bland "modern" Champion without such pronounced strengths and weaknesses.

WhereTheNamesAtJan 14, 20153 votes

One time I was playing Veigar. I caught the ADC and other AP mid in my stun. I DFG-Q'd the ADC killing them then just ulted the other mid laner killing them.

$$$$$ MADE IT RAIN $$$$$

CupcakeTrapJan 14, 20152 votes

{quoted}

One time I was playing Veigar. I caught the ADC and other AP mid in my stun. I DFG-Q'd the ADC killing them then just ulted the other mid laner killing them.

$$$$$ MADE IT RAIN $$$$$

You became a yordle of means.

OJ191Jan 14, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Probably they don't know yet.

If you're removing such a staple item like DFG, you have to see what champions just flat out fall out of the meta. Then you figure out what they need to come back in. Maybe it's individual champion buffs; Ahri is an example of a champion that was probably more fun and interesting before DFG Ahri was a thing. Maybe it's a new item; Syndra buys DFG often but really all she wants is a huge AP stick. Maybe it's a rework; Veigar is totally married to DFG because the only thing he can do is 100-0.

Anyway, the point is that it's a process. They need to figure out where the problems are, then figure out a solution to those problems. We can speculate, and we'll probably be right about some of it, but it's better to get the information directly and concretely.

"all she wants is a huge AP stick"

right the *misses all balls* *spews out a massive cone of morgana-snare-hitbox-sized-hitbox stun-balls* *DFGRignite* *dead enemy* had nothing to do with picking up DFG, nothing at all.

SmokingPuffinJan 14, 20152 votes

{quoted}

"all she wants is a huge AP stick"

right the *misses all balls* *DFGRignite* *dead enemy* had nothing to do with picking up DFG, nothing at all.

The play pattern you mention is one of the bad things about Syndra. Replacing DFG with something with equally big stats but a utility active would be quite a healthy change for her. Done right, the good Syndra players would prefer it.

We really want her core execute pattern to be - W a sphere, W it at them, E for stun, QR. Syndra doesn't need DFG to make that play pattern go.

OJ191Jan 14, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The play pattern you mention is one of the bad things about Syndra. Replacing DFG with something with equally big stats but a utility active would be quite a healthy change for her. Done right, the good Syndra players would prefer it.

We really want her core execute pattern to be - W a sphere, W it at them, E for stun, QR. Syndra doesn't need DFG to make that play pattern go.

nah I want her execute pattern to actually have to land balls (after fixing the completely fucked hitbox size on them, which would also fix the BS with her stun), as well as her other abilities to be able to 100-0 someone.

When Q is as spammable as it is, she shouldn't ever be able to kill with just WEQR which is undodgeable without using mobility spells (thanks riot for balancing stuff around league of mobility so immobile mages get even more screwed every patch)

Currently if you're a squishy immobile mage there isn't even anything you can do unless you can outrange and outburst syndra (so basically xerath, xerath and uh... xerath), because every time you try to CS she will spam Q, then you can either back or get deleted.

SmokingPuffinJan 14, 20151 votes

In order to be viable, immobile mages need to have some really strong thing. For Syndra, it's her pick potential. If you make it so that she can't kill squishies even when landing a 5 sphere ult, she's not going to see any play. I don't think there's much evidence to support Syndra being too strong even on live today.

I disagree about other immobile mages having no counterplay against Syndra. For one thing, it's obvious when she has a sphere picked up with W and the range isn't all that far. For another, she's also immobile and quite prone to getting say Tibbers'd or Veigar'd to death.

Basically, I think immobile mages have much bigger things to complain about than Syndra. Stuff like Zed and Fizz are way more problematic to handle if you're Viktor or something like that.

OJ191Jan 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

In order to be viable, immobile mages need to have some really strong thing. For Syndra, it's her pick potential. If you make it so that she can't kill squishies even when landing a 5 sphere ult, she's not going to see any play. I don't think there's much evidence to support Syndra being too strong even on live today.

I disagree about other immobile mages having no counterplay against Syndra. For one thing, it's obvious when she has a sphere picked up with W and the range isn't all that far. For another, she's also immobile and quite prone to getting say Tibbers'd or Veigar'd to death.

Basically, I think immobile mages have much bigger things to complain about than Syndra. Stuff like Zed and Fizz are way more problematic to handle if you're Viktor or something like that.

My issue with it is that she doesn't have to be fed, she just has to not be behind, then spam out some spheres anywhere, and either you run away or she WEQRignite and you die (or if you live it's obscenely low and you have to back anyway while she gets free farm/her team takes towers).

When a damage ability is spammable, they should actually have to LAND that spam to 100-0 someone.

DFG just magnifies the issue, not creates it, I've seen a fed DFG syndra delete uber-fed tanks FFS.

Penguin EclipseJan 14, 20152 votes

{quoted}

In order to be viable, immobile mages need to have some really strong thing. For Syndra, it's her pick potential. If you make it so that she can't kill squishies even when landing a 5 sphere ult, she's not going to see any play. I don't think there's much evidence to support Syndra being too strong even on live today.

I disagree about other immobile mages having no counterplay against Syndra. For one thing, it's obvious when she has a sphere picked up with W and the range isn't all that far. For another, she's also immobile and quite prone to getting say Tibbers'd or Veigar'd to death.

Basically, I think immobile mages have much bigger things to complain about than Syndra. Stuff like Zed and Fizz are way more problematic to handle if you're Viktor or something like that.

With the Q damage nerfs, E width nerfs, and DFG's removal Syndra will fall to the 1.5-2% pick rate she sat at for nearly 2 years after release.

It Is I EmotoJan 14, 20153 votes

DFG is an item highly recommended for Assasins, and it scales pretty well with burst mages, Like Annie, Syndra, and Leblanc. Removing it would also mean that those champions will have a harder time against tankier/hard to kill targets. Though, how about instead of 15% max health, 15% current health? making it more benifital when the target is at full health than at low health.

SEKAIJan 14, 20153 votes

Now you've mentioned it, mages seem to have a distinct lack of active items, only dfg and zhonya I think.

Which dfg I personally really don't have a problem with and the latter which I just despise, I personally think it would be better to just change the dfg instead of removing it completely.

YoellaJan 14, 20151 votes

Sort of item 3023 Twin Shadows too. It's not as AP heavy as Zhonya's, but the active can be pretty useful.

JevelFaithfulJan 14, 20151 votes

True that. I was looking at AP item (replying to this post) and noticed the twins actually have 80AP, that's low on hte end-game item scale. But Actually higher than voidstaff (admitedly, primarily a mrPen item).
If memory serves, 80 is the lowtier of end-game mage item, but it's the same as Seraph, RoA and Chalice. So twin is not an AP item, but it seems to fit the bill as a mage item.

YoellaJan 14, 20152 votes

Yeah I use Twin Shadows situationaly on a lot of AP mage champs, namely Veigar when I've got a lot of farm and need to either chase people down to plop my stun or find out where the enemy is hiding. Not the most AP heavy item, but the utility shouldn't be underestimated.

If I had a dollar for every time I foiled an enemy gank and saved either my own or my teams hide by releasing those ghosts into the bushes I'd be a very rich man indeed.

TTYgCVZuNmFeb 11, 20151 votes

okay guys lets all forget about archangels staff, the 1k haelth shield on the best champion in the game is wonderful.

. . . . . . . .

. . . Ryze item 3040 item 3146 item 3092 item 3060 actually seems like there is quite a few. MAybe its just about focusing on playing champs that dont solely rely on an overpowered kiting kit

thunderman1165Jan 14, 20153 votes

I'm pretty pissed off about the removal myself. I had wanted to play mid Elise this season (pls don't kill me), but this makes it much more difficult, since she relied heavily on this item to get off her burst.

Wînter FoxJan 14, 20152 votes

WHAT

Stop trolling me OP...

YoellaJan 14, 20152 votes

It was removed from the PBE today, Riot officially announced it will be gone by 5.2

Wînter FoxJan 14, 20152 votes

That's bs...and you know they won't be buffing Ahri Katarina Leblanc Syndra Veigar anytime soon to compensate. Looks like I'm gonna have to hear

Zed HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

every. single. game.

YoellaJan 14, 20151 votes

Yeah I feel ya, I wanna take Zed out back and shoot him dead. I hate that champ, such bullshit 24/7. Zed, Fizz, and Lee Sin need to go on a date with the nerf bat pronto.

ValiantDogFoodFeb 28, 20151 votes

I love you

Teridax68Jan 14, 20153 votes

Actually, Ahri is the poster fox-girl for champions who'll be receiving compensatory buffs, Veigar being another big candidate. DFG had been distorting Ahri's kit and forcing her to play like an assassin, and now that the item's removed she's likely to get tons more sustained damage and more mage-related power. Here's a quote from the Patch 5.2 forecast:

[{quoted}](name=Riot Jag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GinIa17t,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-01-14T01:00:50.369+0000)

removing this item gives us room to buff champion kits that would otherwise be overpowered if they could use DFG. The most obvious example is Ahri; more 'magey' elements of the character, like her sustained damage or kiting, end up getting washed out because she has so much power to blow up charmed targets with a DFG burst. This ends up forcing us to balance Ahri around her assassin playstyle because there's always the "I can buy DFG" route to consider; removing the item means we can buff her in more interesting ways while still keeping some of her burst because she can't just pick up a DFG and double down on a single playstyle.

Meddler's also experimenting on some changes that would emphasize the kite mage parts of her kit:

{quoted}

We are testing some changes to Ahri that support the kite mage pattern she used to use sometimes. Those changes (not guaranteed, but being experimented with at the moment) include things like removing the damage amp on charm, buffing her other damage sources and giving her a speed boost while her Q's in the air to allow more reposition plays and kiting while casting.

On top of this, a lot of high-profile assassins, including Zed but also Akali and Fizz , are either getting straight-up nerfs (in Zed's case) or changes that would make them less reliable:

[{quoted}](name=Riot Jag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GinIa17t,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-01-14T01:00:50.369+0000)

One of the other character classes we're looking at in 5.2 in Assassins. Some assassins have top tier burst potential that is loaded onto high reliability spells (think Akali or Fizz here) and don't have enough real weaknesses to compensate. Others may simply be too strong along a variety of dimensions; Zed being one of the best 1v1 champions in the game and an extremely efficient tower diver helps make him a super split pusher. However, him having such strong tower killing statistics (e.g. AS, bonus AD from W passive) on top of that makes for an overwhelming combination.

YoellaJan 14, 20151 votes

I hope Veigar gets buffed, he's one of my favorite champs to play. I hope they lower the cast delay on W or add some bonus damage to his stun. His main issue now is going to be fighting against people with tenacity, because he's going to have a considerably harder time to burst them down now.

Teridax68Jan 14, 20151 votes

Yeah, Tenacity tends to devalue crowd control overall, which hurts champions like Veigar a lot (it's also likely why the stun duration on his E is so high, though). While I'm not sure if he's getting more burst, he's likely to get buffs on the side that would give him more options beyond just point-and-click popping the enemy squishy.

YoellaJan 14, 20151 votes

As long as they don't take away from his ability to assassinate with his combo I'd be all for that. A lower delay on W or an increased AP ratio on Q (maybe 60% -> 80%) would allow him to do more with it than farm and poke.

I feel like the shorter delay on W would be the smarter thing to do here though, as it would give him the option and ability to deal damage outside his stun while simultaneously forcing him to decide between trying to combo or trying to just land W because of the cooldown.

Teridax68Jan 14, 20152 votes

This is a quote from Riot Jag on the Patch 5.2 forecast:

[{quoted}](name=Riot Jag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GinIa17t,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2015-01-14T02:02:45.937+0000)

The interesting issue with DFG is that despite being a nuke scaling off of percentage health and therefore in theory being a tank shredder, it ends up being arguably more potent on squishies since it reduces the threshold required to one shot a carry's low health pool by 20%.

Your point suggests to me that maybe there's an itemization hole for mages that want to deal with health stacking (that Liandry's is not currently serving). I think that's a good issue for us to keep an eye on.

From the looks of it, nothing's sure at the moment, but it's possible that there might end up being a health-shredding item specifically for AP burst champions, one that would fill the gap left by DFG. It's not exactly a guaranteed 120 AP + 10% CDR item, but it might work just as well.

YoellaJan 14, 20152 votes

I would be ecstatic!

Angry MonsterJan 14, 20151 votes

i hope not. Tanks are already killed fast enough. % health does one thing and only one thing screw over true tanks.

Mages should either be like ADCs and laying fire down as safely as they can or be an assassin and delete an enemy squishy. They can do both jobs without a % health item

Teridax68Jan 14, 20151 votes

"True tanks" tend to have it easier, actually. Maokai works like a hyper-tank and has been extremely successful since his rework, for example. Personally, I think the problem has more to do with penetration/reduction, whose many issues include devaluing stacked resistances.

I also think mages would be even better-suited to a percent health item than most AD champions, too: mages and assassins are inherently bursty in nature, which means they often focus on killing their target within one or two ability rotations. Blowing everything and having the enemy tank survive usually means being extremely vulnerable and weak for a fair duration. Marksmen, on the other hand, lay down constant damage, so regardless of how tanky an enemy is, they can eventually whittle down their health even without a item 3153 . Mages and assassins should have the option to deal with tanky champions too, which a percent health item would help with.

Angry MonsterJan 14, 20151 votes

When was the last time you saw a Mao be important in the late game as a damage source? Tanks die way to fast as it is. They can not dual anyone and with a little focus fire die in under 2 sec. I love how you pull the one tank in the game that has 20% damage mitigation as his ult and claim he is hard to kill. Cause every tank has that.

Its hard enough to build meaningful MR in the game with everything else. Unless riot is going to move every tank into the bruiser category tanks need to be able to survive for going pure tank.

Teridax68Jan 14, 20151 votes

I never said Maokai was a great damage source, though he's capable of dishing pretty decent damage for a tank. My point is that he's exceptionally durable, to the point where he can survive fairly well even against full percent health/penetration teams. This is sort of besides the point, but aside from the mitigation on his ultimate, he also has a lot of other tools (untargetability, the sustain on his passive, great base defenses, including the highest base armor in the game) that make him very resilient, so he can still survive for pretty good stretches even if people counter-itemize against him.

I also think it's a good thing that MR is difficult to stack to high amounts. Back when high-MR items like Force of Nature were around, mages were shut down completely with just a few items, and the entire role became unviable. Again, this goes down to burst patterns: if you stack armor against an AD champion, even if their spells don't deal that much damage they can keep coming at you until you keel over. If you stack high amounts of MR and mitigate most of the damage from a mage's rotation, however, they won't really be able to follow up, and by the time their cooldowns come off it's usually too late. There are ways of dealing with mages besides just stacking magic resistance as well (through effects like item 3102 's spell shield or item 3140 's anti-CC cleanse), so I don't think giving AP champions better access to health shred would be as bad as you think for tanks.

To add to this, AP champions tend to be extremely dependent on their spells to kill people, which tends to mean there's usually a health threshold past which a champion simply becomes too tanky to take down. Most mages have trouble with tanks because their rotation, while strong enough to take down squishies, doesn't affect tanky champions as much, yet that's also all they've got. A big reason why the game is so dependent on AD champions is because they tend to be the only ones capable of reliably killing tanks (and sometimes too well, as is the case now), a feature most AP champions lack.

Angry MonsterJan 14, 20151 votes

ah so your a mage fan boy that thinks mages should kill everything no problem.

Also mao is usually built AP bruiser not pure tank.

AbyssphereJan 14, 20152 votes

{quoted}

ah so your a mage fan boy that thinks mages should kill everything no problem.

Learn to read.

Angry MonsterJan 14, 20151 votes

i did. All you say is that mages should kill everything and bring up non tank itemization.

Teridax68Jan 14, 20151 votes

That's MotherTeresa1910, not me. Ad hominem aside, what I'm trying to say is that mages should also have the potential to kill tanks, and not just marksmen/AD champions (even AD assassins can kill tanks right now). The heavy dependence on skillshots and unreliable abilities for most mages means that even squishies aren't going to die to you "no problem", and so the damage from AP champions is a lot easier to avoid or mitigate on average than an AD champion's damage output.

I'm also actually proposing to buff tanks by addressing the issues with resistance penetration/reduction, which affects all champions negatively but is particularly bad for tanky champions. I'd like an ideal world in which mages have greater potential to kill tanks, along similar lines to AD champions, but also in which building resistances would guarantee you mitigation against the selected damage type without being devalued by a second-degree counter, which would buff tanks' survivability overall.

Angry MonsterJan 14, 20151 votes

So nothing should be able to kill a tank 1v1.(under 4 sec or 1 spell rotation). A tank should eventually die yes but it should require great effort or be overwhelmed by numbers 2+. That said tanks cant really kill anything in the late game since they are just D stats.

Though riot is slowly pulling tanks out of the game. Sej changes are making her more of a awkward bruiser(consistent damage) and Mao AP bruiser with AP health builds.(not healthy game play).

Lets pretend a tank get 180MR which requires major itemization to get.

if there was no MR pen in the game you would only do 1/3 of your damage. But with red magic pen, pen boots, 6% masteries and void the numbers drop off alot.

In this case

void takes of 63 MR masteries take 7MR then runes and boots take off another 23 leaving the tank with a grand total of 63 MR. 63 MR is rough 34% damage midagation.

I think mages pen damage output is quite fine there, since the tank has almost no kill threat. To get to 180 MR you need runes, locket, MR boots and banishes. And none of that is going to even protect against AD threats and every team has those.

With sorc shoes and void staff (both are efficient at all times) mages never have to worry about damage to tanks. Plus the above pen is also good against squishes allowing for almost true damage to them.

Again mages are fine

SmokingPuffinJan 14, 20151 votes

Liandry's definitely doesn't kill tanks well. It's resistable damage, its effects are reduced by tenacity, and it takes way too long to do the job. BoRK applies more %hp damage more often and even that isn't all that great for tank busting.

HexTechBomberJan 14, 20151 votes

It's hard to make a point for building Liandry's on every champion because those with damage consistency over time like Teemo, Singed, Cassiopeia, used it way better than those with burst. Especially for Brand too with his passive.

deadlychuckJan 14, 20152 votes

Great even fewer options for AP champions, i'm almost convinced that riot is attempted to phase AP out of the game completely.

Mana Nerfs (which afect the AP champions more than AD)

Lifesteal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Spell Vamp

item 3153 >> item 3151

like there is almost no reason to play AP champions anymore, unless they have a border line overpowered amount of burst or utility.

Angry MonsterJan 14, 20151 votes

You dont need a DFG replacement. No one built all 3 large rod items anyways.

YoellaJan 14, 20151 votes

Yes.. yes we did. All the time.

Angry MonsterJan 14, 20151 votes

yeah right. well maybe you did. Your unranked.

Most competent players do not.

HexTechBomberJan 14, 20152 votes

Are you kidding? Champions with high burst often would go for DFG, Zhonya and Deathcap and boom that's just a ton of damage ontop of their burst there.

Angry MonsterJan 14, 20151 votes

If your looking for the highest DPS with a mana build you would have a archangel staff or soul stealer . Champs like Kat maybe you could pull it off a build like that. Games should not being 6 item builds to start with. Any champ that is spell reliant and AP gets lich bane.

If i give that you have can, then you are not going to a guardian angel and be totally reckless and be just trrading one for one in most situations.

3 large rod items is not optimal

JevelFaithfulJan 14, 20151 votes

{quoted} Any champ that is spell reliant and AP gets lich bane.

I'll correct on that part : Any champ that is spell reliant, more DPS than burst (as they tweaked lb against it) and doesn't have a reallly slow AA animation can get lb. I don't remember it being a first pick on any champion recently tought. you'll want some decent Ap before you get it.

Ok I might be nitpicking on that one.

Angry MonsterJan 14, 20152 votes

I meant to say autosthere actually. spell reliant and autos. IE tf, fizz, lulu and maybe diana(?) types. Fiz and tf can actually rush it early.

Sometimes you see it on LB for split push, though not common. ExPEKE

JevelFaithfulJan 14, 20151 votes

Good pick. I have to admit I've seen tf and diana get it (been a while since I saw any of those. That's mostly it). haven't been looking at midlane in a while.