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How the conversation about the Veigar changes went down at Riot HQ.

Yoella··484 votes·13,374 views

Riot: Alright everyone who are Veigar's biggest counters in lane right now, and what is he good at? Zed: I'm AD, energy, and teleport, his only hope is to instantly stun me and nuke me down. Kassadin: I passively resist 15% of his damage, teleport, slow, and am granted a shield when I attack him. He has to stun me first and then attempt to nuke me down even with my passive. Leblanc: I teleport everywhere and get damage on him almost without retaliation. If he doesn't stun me I can push him out of lane constantly. Riot: Alright thanks for the input! We've decided to not only give his stun a massive 0.75 second delay we've also given it warning particles so he can never stun you guys again! Zed: Thanks Riot, I can always count on you. I'll keep making those #BigLCSplays.

Riot: Alright what else can Veigar do competently? Ahri: Well his whole identity is to nuke people down. It's his only real valid playstyle. His ult looks pretty good. Riot: You're right, Ahri, his ultimate is pretty powerful. Let's compensate him for the removal of 20% extra damage by removing 20% of his ratio on R! Veigar: Wait, how is that-- Riot: Carrying on! Hmm how should we compensate him for these changes? Ahri: Well he's an immobile mage, which in this meta is pretty bad. I already had mobility and you gave me even more so why not give him-- Riot: A double hit on Q? Hmm but we'd have to make it an unreliable skillshot. Ahri: No, actually I was going to say how about giving him some mo-- Riot: More damage? Nah, how would giving him more damage compensate for taking away an item that gave him damage? Veigar: Actually I think she was talking about mobility, you know, like an escape? Maybe movement speed while Q is out or E is on the field? Riot: But what about MOVEMENT CREEP? I mean, it's not like your three biggest counters in lane have any significant mobility. Veigar: B-But they all teleport... Riot: So just stun them! Veigar: ... but you just gave that a massive delay... Riot: I can't hear you you're too short! Go have some negligible buff on W and go hang out in the corner with Cassiopeia.

Cassiopeia: It happened to you too, huh? Veigar: Yeah...

156 Comments

Pythagorean Thm84 votes

All of my upvotes

Dyvius41 votes

The only inconsistent thing is that Cassie is actually viable now because of her epic late-game scaling.

So it'd be more suitable if Olaf showed up.

Otherwise, I laughed my ass off reading this.

Neidox48 votes

I don't think Cassiopeia likes being Cassiopeia.

Dyvius15 votes

{quoted}

I don't think Cassiopeia likes being Cassiopeia.

to be completely honest I actually liked the Cassie rework from the beginning. She just feels much more playable than before. Which she is.

Auryiel16 votes

Now imagine all the Cassiopeia QoL fixes that went with the rework that should have been implemented years ago without Cassiopeia's new disgusting passive and forced playstyle

Wow, that's a champion I'd love to play

But yes Cass doesn't really have anything to do with the Veigar changes, those are just straight up nerfs and buffs while Cass had a complete change of identity

Yoella5 votes

I thought about it, but then I remember hearing he was played in LCS this year. So I decided against it.

Wheatloaf10 votes

There's always Urgot.

2pudge1cup15 votes

Her numbers got buffed to stupid levels which is the only reason she's "viable".

She was balanced before this whole nonsense.

Bakunetsu38 votes

i would give this 300 upvotes if i could

Zirzon27 votes

I normally try not support threads complaining about Riot but...

Riot: I can't hear you you're too short!

I could not possibly resist after the short joke... Well played sir!

VagaBond rfC14 votes

The thing that riddles me the most, is that there's a constant nerf towards Stuns, which can be mitigated by a large variety of items. All while Airborne CC (commonly known as knock-ups), which has only ONE item counter, is left as it is.

Veigar's E - at max range - isn't that much of a problem, so long as you're quick about your QSS. I am completely with you in that he's an immobile champion, that relies heavily on his E. This change will completely destroy Veigar's defensive capabilities.

cFlame12 votes

Riot doesn't want players to have to actually think about what they're buying or else they can't build glass cannon and go 15/0.

Yormaughm9 votes

I have come to the conclusion that this is absolutely true.

Apparently, item builds don't count as legitimate strategic options, but you don't have to take my word for it, just find one of the 900 posts about how buying items isn't "counterplay" because "it's not something you do, it's something you* buy*." Like making a meaningful decision in the item shop doesn't involve thinking?

I just had an idea for a great new game mode. Instabuild mode. In this mode there is no item shop. The instant you hit enough money to buy the item you were going to buy anyway the money is immediately subtracted and the item is immediately put into your inventory. Since 99% of league players always buy the exact same items in the exact same order no matter whatever else is going on, this should only enhance the player experience in a positive way by eliminating all that pesky backing you usually have to do.

FyreNinja10 votes

Veigar is fking trash now. Im not going to lie and say I mained him before, but I did play his, and as a FKING IMMOBILE MAGE who relies on a UNIQUE STUN to use 3 ABILITES and then be useless for another 9 seconds (or like 70 seconds) this "rework" is TRASH

Ulquiorra9958 votes

Because Zed they need Zed to give him Zed a weaknessZed to compensate Zed for his strength Zed in instantly Zed deleting people Zed

BakedLotion7 votes

best thread na

flibitydoo7 votes

I mean he also got a huge range increase on his Q

so he can farm way more safer than normal (he can also harass more easily at range and be generally safer in teamfights, assuming one isn't bad at the game and actually knows how to position squishy mages in the current meta)

and he can technically get 2 ap per Q last hit instead of just 1

and it's a skillshot now so he can just throw it over walls or at crowds since it damages multiple enemies now.

But this is the LOL community. We don't look at the positives, we look at the negatives and only the negatives. We don't pay attention to good behaviour, we look at the toxic players and assume everyone who plays LoL is toxic. We don't see buffs, we see nerfs and only nerfs.

Zarxis20 votes

{quoted}

I mean he also got a huge range increase on his Q

so he can farm way more safer than normal (he can also harass more easily at range and be generally safer in teamfights, assuming one isn't bad at the game and actually knows how to position squishy mages in the current meta)

and he can technically get 2 ap per Q last hit instead of just 1

and it's a skillshot now so he can just throw it over walls or at crowds since it damages multiple enemies now.

But this is the LOL community. We don't look at the positives, we look at the negatives and only the negatives. We don't pay attention to good behaviour, we look at the toxic players and assume everyone who plays LoL is toxic. We don't see buffs, we see nerfs and only nerfs.

Q is now unreliable. Even if Veigar was to constantly double-stack with his Q, he would still do less damage than current Veigar with a Deathfire Grasp.

W is now a nonfactor. Without E being a reliable stun against any champion (mobiles can simply jump away before it lands; immobiles can sit in it and still dodge his W), Veigar cannot land his W without help.

Veigar is on the precipice of becoming obsolete. Without his E, he is defenseless in lane, and if he can't lane, he can't farm. Current Veigar only serves to press E in fights if he hasn't gotten any farm. New Veigar won't even have that. New Veigar will have practically no CC and still no mobility.

In all seriousness, I'm willing to try a higher-risk-higher-reward Q in exchange for making it practically useless against the mobile champs it used to actually help Veigar with, but not at the sacrifice of W being basically an empty ability slot and E never stunning anyone, along with Veigar losing any chance of surviving any encounter with an enemy champion because he can't out-burst them (no W, weaker R) or effectively run from them (E is kill).

flibitydoo3 votes

{quoted}

Q is now unreliable. Even if Veigar was to constantly double-stack with his Q, he would still do less damage than current Veigar with a Deathfire Grasp.

W is now a nonfactor. Without E being a reliable stun against any champion (mobiles can simply jump away before it lands; immobiles can sit in it and still dodge his W), Veigar cannot land his W without help.

Veigar is on the precipice of becoming obsolete. Without his E, he is defenseless in lane, and if he can't lane, he can't farm. Current Veigar only serves to press E in fights if he hasn't gotten any farm. New Veigar won't even have that. New Veigar will have practically no CC and still no mobility.

In all seriousness, I'm willing to try a higher-risk-higher-reward Q in exchange for making it practically useless against the mobile champs it used to actually help Veigar with, but not at the sacrifice of W being basically an empty ability slot and E never stunning anyone, along with Veigar losing any chance of surviving any encounter with an enemy champion because he can't out-burst them (no W, weaker R) or effectively run from them (E is kill).

the first 3 paragraphs of your response indicate to me that for some reason you believe that skillshots are impossible to land and have a 100% miss rate I'm going to let you in on a secret: while abilities have cooldowns and manacosts,* they can be cast multiple times in the game*, and you can keep trying to land a skillshot until you are successful. You can actually win games with a less than 100% hit rate when it comes to firing skillshots.

Even though most of Karthus is shooting your Q at people, try him out. You'd be surprised at how viable this champion is despite 90% of his damage output coming out a 0.5 second delay explosion skillshot (and unlike Veigar, his wall isn't even a hard stun!).

And during a teamfight, landing skillshots is VERY easy.

New veigar is pretty much guaranteed farm due to the way his Q mechanics work now.

  1. the range is much larger so you can stand much more safely and play way more passively to farm up stacks. 2.It pierces the target, so assuming the enemy is a solo mid, they can't deny you your farm by body blocking. It goes through them (does damage) and you get the last hit anyways.

If you seriously can't farm because of the E change, then chances are, you

  1. don't ward. In which case, actually learn how to ward. trust me, all the pros do it. You get a free ward this season (and the last season), the 4 button on your keyboard actually has a purpose.
  2. you think that autopushing the lane and standing next to the enemy turret is a good strategy in the early game. Here's a hint: it's not. and as Veigar, one of the most passive laners in the game, that's how you call the enemy jungler over for a visit.

Why do you want veigar to have mobility? it's one his unique qualities that defines him as a champion. If you want mobility with targeted spells, you could always go akali. Or Kassadin. Or Ahri. Or play any ADC that has a dash.

As far as his E being useless, the aoe radius is still 375 (or 750 in diameter, aka you can straight up block every entrance and exit to the jungle due to how wide this spell is). It still lasts for 3 seconds. It's still a huge zoning tool. It's still a "5 enemies chasing you? Not anymore!" spell.

And you can do the wall-skillshot trick with it. (aka, if your opponent walks up next to a wall, throw the skillshot at them, but slightly away from the wall. This guarantees the skillshot hits because they can't move the other way through the wall. In this case, you would cast E, then use your Q to push them near a wall. If they walk into the wall to avoid your Q, you hit them with the W. If they don't, then they tank the Q. This is of course, assuming you actually cage them inside the stuncircle like how you are intended to play Veigar.

Finally, as far as Veigar's ult getting reduced in damage... first of all it's getting a large cd reduction second from my experiences with veigar, it's overkill 50% of the time third a majority of the time, most of the damage scaling comes out of the enemy AP because it's basically a single target slightly more damage variant of your w so why you would waste it's damage potential (and CD) on someone without ap (when you could have just hit them with the w for roughly the same damage) is beyond me.

Zarxis16 votes

{quoted}

the first 3 paragraphs of your response indicate to me that for some reason you believe that skillshots are impossible to land and have a 100% miss rate I'm going to let you in on a secret: while abilities have cooldowns and manacosts,* they can be cast multiple times in the game*, and you can keep trying to land a skillshot until you are successful. You can actually win games with a less than 100% hit rate when it comes to firing skillshots.

Even though most of Karthus is shooting your Q at people, try him out. You'd be surprised at how viable this champion is despite 90% of his damage output coming out a 0.5 second delay explosion skillshot (and unlike Veigar, his wall isn't even a hard stun!).

And during a teamfight, landing skillshots is VERY easy.

New veigar is pretty much guaranteed farm due to the way his Q mechanics work now.

  1. the range is much larger so you can stand much more safely and play way more passively to farm up stacks. 2.It pierces the target, so assuming the enemy is a solo mid, they can't deny you your farm by body blocking. It goes through them (does damage) and you get the last hit anyways.

If you seriously can't farm because of the E change, then chances are, you

  1. don't ward. In which case, actually learn how to ward. trust me, all the pros do it. You get a free ward this season (and the last season), the 4 button on your keyboard actually has a purpose.
  2. you think that autopushing the lane and standing next to the enemy turret is a good strategy in the early game. Here's a hint: it's not. and as Veigar, one of the most passive laners in the game, that's how you call the enemy jungler over for a visit.

Why do you want veigar to have mobility? it's one his unique qualities that defines him as a champion. If you want mobility with targeted spells, you could always go akali. Or Kassadin. Or Ahri. Or play any ADC that has a dash.

As far as his E being useless, the aoe radius is still 375 (or 750 in diameter, aka you can straight up block every entrance and exit to the jungle due to how wide this spell is). It still lasts for 3 seconds. It's still a huge zoning tool. It's still a "5 enemies chasing you? Not anymore!" spell.

And you can do the wall-skillshot trick with it. (aka, if your opponent walks up next to a wall, throw the skillshot at them, but slightly away from the wall. This guarantees the skillshot hits because they can't move the other way through the wall. In this case, you would cast E, then use your Q to push them near a wall. If they walk into the wall to avoid your Q, you hit them with the W. If they don't, then they tank the Q. This is of course, assuming you actually cage them inside the stuncircle like how you are intended to play Veigar.

Finally, as far as Veigar's ult getting reduced in damage... first of all it's getting a large cd reduction second from my experiences with veigar, it's overkill 50% of the time third a majority of the time, most of the damage scaling comes out of the enemy AP because it's basically a single target slightly more damage variant of your w so why you would waste it's damage potential (and CD) on someone without ap (when you could have just hit them with the w for roughly the same damage) is beyond me.

TL;DR at the bottom.

I'll let you in on a secret, in return for yours: mobility is a thing. Highly mobile champs tend to do well in League, in case you haven't noticed. Veigar's old Q gave him a degree of certainty against champions like Yasuo and Zed. Even if he missed his E, Veigar could at least drop his Q and ult on a target and cause significant damage. Old Veigar was practically guaranteed farm because he couldn't miss; new Veigar can, and more importantly, he can miss champions. If the projectile speed isn't high enough, his Q will be about as useful against champions as a Soraka autoattack (without any of the damage) if said champions have the reaction time of a snail-rock hybrid that had been exposed to marijuana.

The E change isn't going to prevent Veigar from farming- it's going to prevent Veigar from surviving ganks (or harassment by mobile champions) or landing his W. Veigar is currently considered to be a niche Katarina counter because he can instantly stop her ultimate and survive laning against her because his E makes jumping on him dangerous. I seriously doubt that these rules will apply if Katarina can simply walk at him to bait out his E, then Shunpo onto him to avoid the stun and begin wrecking his face.

Save your advice about warding and not autopushing for someone who didn't learn those rules multiple seasons ago.

I don't want Veigar to have mobility. I want him to have his E left intact because it's what allows Veigar to function against mobile characters. With skill, you can actually drop the stun directly on enemy champions! oooh, aaaaah It's this thing that good Veigar players have been doing for years. You've heard about it, surely? His E might still be able to do some zoning... Against immobile champions. Anyone with a dash or blink can simply bypass it or jump out of it. Even the ones that would be hit by the ring will now be able to simply walk out of it and dash/blink around/over it. Sure, it might stop a gank from an Udyr (if you can get to your tower before Udyr catches up thanks to his movespeed and tenacity), but Lee Sin, Talon, LeBlanc, Fizz, Katarina, etc. don't really care whether you drop it or not. The current E allows Veigar to play against these champions— he has the potential to actually survive ganks by aggressive, mobile jungles without blowing flash or having any mobility. It makes him stand out among immobile mages. He's never been a go-to pick for all situations, but his current E actually allows him to do relatively well even if he's facing mobile enemies.

How much good is that wall-skillshot trick going to do for you if the enemy Lee Sin/Vi/etc. simply dashes out of it and proceeds to shove damage Veigar can't afford to take down your throat? Good luck bursting them down without your W- even old DFG Veigar would have trouble with that, even if he landed his stun. At least he might be able to convince said mobile champions to back off by dropping off a full combo— you know, that thing that new Veigar won't have because his W has a 1.25 second delay. You mentioned Karthus and his Q? Yes, I've played Karthus. Extensively. And I did some math, just for you. "1.25=0.5x2.5". Veigar has to wait over twice as long for his W to land; that's enough time for plenty of immobile champions to simply walk across the AOE, let alone what mobile champions can do with it. In case you didn't know, Veigar relies on his E to land his W. Riot giving his E more counterplay than it already has means sacrificing his W; Dark Matter rarely hits anything with more brain cells than a flatworm if Veigar hasn't stunned his intended target. The new E means Veigar can potentially never stun a target. One can simply walk or dash out of the circle. Even if someone is trapped inside, Veigar has little chance of landing his W on a mildly competent player.

By the way, if you use your Q to trick someone into getting stunned, you're still sacrificing one of your burst abilities.

Veigar's ultimate is meant to be overkill against AP glass cannon champions, which are less popular as of late, what with the mana regen nerfs and lack of mobility many AP glass cannon champions have. Have you looked at Karthus' pick rate, lately? It does far less damage against non-AP champions, which are rather popular, and it's about to do less. DFG was pretty important in a Veigar-vs.-AD situation; it made him a threat (if the enemy didn't buy Hexdrinker, Quicksilver Sash, Banshee's, etc. and didn't have mobility).

You do realize that cutting 10 seconds off of Veigar's ultimate cooldown is fairly insignificant, right? Especially when you consider that he's still doing a lower net damage total without DFG (even with better Q farming) and is almost never going to land approximately 1/3 of his burst. You waste your ultimate on enemy AD champions because you need that burst to kill them— Q and W (they generally weren't enough even when we had DFG) are not enough if the game hasn't gone on for 2+ hours. Veigar's ultimate will be even more important after his changes because his Q will be dodgeable and his W will be a negligible blip that occasionally appears on players' screens, rather than an integral part of Veigar's burst.

I really don't know how to make things more clear; I feel that I have to ramble in order to cover every detail of of the consequences of Veigar's upcoming evisceration. Veigar need stun to land W. Veigar need W to deal damage. Veigar need stun to not die. Stun delay mean no stun. No stun mean no Veigar. Understand?

Reazale8 votes

Totally agree with this post. In order to change his E like they are doing , the rest of his kit needs major overhauls... and all he is getting are major nerfs and some mana and cd buff on meaningless things

Blue Moon Wolf7 votes

I got Veigar because I can't do skill shots well, riot has ripped me off worse than my job, and they have me working 7 days a week, under 40 hours so it doesn't count as full time (unless you count drive time, they sure don't -__-) and I'm making just above minimum wage.

hobomann27 votes

its the new fucking thing for league SKILLSHOT CREEP where FUCKING EVERYTHING HAS TO BE A SKILLSHOT!

Ebonmaw Dragon6 votes

item 3070 I cried

IceKingChernobog6 votes

I liked the Q change but making it a skill shot was unnecessary, as a veigar main this....hurts me

Aerothal5 votes

lol 10/10

Gigglebytes4 votes

Instant aoe stun of that length of time lacks counterplay and isn't really that fun to play against.

Yoella14 votes

Counterplay: Tenacity, Banshee's, QSS, Morgana shield, Sivir shield, anyone he can't 100-0.

"But that's not enough!" It's more than most champs have, especially to the degree it screws Veigar over. Don't whine if you're gonna face Veigar without any of the above.

Gigglebytes4 votes

Itemization isn't counterplay, its itemization. And the two champions with spell shields does not counter play make. Anyone he can't 100-0 are you kidding saying thats counterplay? Thats just surviving. While they're viable stategies, none of the things you mentioned is actual counterplay. The delay they added aso added counter play and it is actually not that hard to hit.

Copelando7 votes

When we talk about Zed, itemization is counterplay.

Curling Veigar4 votes

logic

CamaHa1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sadistic Veigar,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=EKkXJzKj,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2015-02-14T06:53:55.989+0000)

logic

What is dat and where can I get it?

Curling Veigar1 votes

I really don't care about the E delay. The only thing I don't like was nerfing his ult. That was unnecessary.

CamaHa3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sadistic Veigar,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=EKkXJzKj,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2015-02-14T07:08:26.731+0000)

At Riot Games

Awww too far away. I'm on east coast. we get no good stuffz.

LOL Spammer4 votes

How come the posts that have the most hate get the most upvotes? What is up with this community.

X Frady4 votes

[{quoted}](name=LOL Spammer,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=EKkXJzKj,comment-id=0019,timestamp=2015-02-14T16:28:48.627+0000)

How come the posts that have the most hate get the most upvotes? What is up with this community.

Simple, the positive community doesn't participate as much as the "negative" one. Same with politics.

Xenohaz7 votes

If something doesn't bother you, you have no reason to complain about it.

7ha7guy7774 votes

Viktor join the glorious group of delayed stun mages

junglerboy164 votes

At least Viktor's has a slow on it before the stun (I love Viktor's kit). Veigar doesn't even have a slow, just a big fat "WALK AWAY" warning before his stun drops.

G1Radiobot4 votes

Can we get a Morde shout out as well?

Yoella4 votes

I would, but I don't play Morde and so I don't want to make an unintelligent bash against Riot. If you or someone who plays Morde makes a post explaining the pros/cons of the changes or makes something funny like I have then I'd gladly support it though.

I main Veigar, so I can see exactly how these changes are going to affect him, whereas I've never played Morde. I feel like it would be unfair of me to bash Riot on a topic I am completely uneducated on. I can't say whether or not Mordes changes are good or bad, as I don't have that insight. But if someone does and makes a good post about it I will gladly support it.

Xengre4 votes

I think something is wrong... I can't upvote you enough. :/

PickleBabah4 votes

A better fix would be to just have a .25 second delay, and have a strong slow in the middle while having the stun duration be less.

Silverthane4 votes

this is so accurate its hilarious and painful at the same time

Killer X 123 votes

Cass does so much damage. lol

Risurin3 votes

so assassins have mobility to outplay a mage that doesn't have mobility, but that mage can one-shot anyone caught in his stun ? + Cass seems to be in a good spot if she is picked in a good team comp.... i dont understand this post...

JusticePauldrons3 votes

Honestly when it comes to counterplay I can see why the change happened. Having an unreadable aoe stun on a 16 second cooldown is ridiculous on paper. Maybe tone down the delay slightly to .5 seconds? That is the Delay for Demacian Justice and sounds about right to me. His Q change will let him farm a great deal better though for sure and his teamfight potential is still going to be strong.

FLY Slotmachiner3 votes

I thought they were going to compensate him by "Actually I think she was talking about mobility, you know, like an escape? Maybe movement speed while Q is out or E is on the field?" I was really hyped... item 3070 Veigar item 3070

Kingsgrave2 votes

Riot's thought process:

Veigar lands 1 thing and then kills you which is OP Leblanc has to land 2-3 things to kill you so its fine

Yoella3 votes

Also one is a mage with no mobility at all and the other is mayor of Juke City.

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