Why don't you ask people why they ban champs that their teammates have declared?
Because that's the main reason why people are reluctant to declare a champ.
I don't care if your last Yasuo jungle went 0/8, DON'T FUCKING BAN A TEAMMATES DECLARED CHAMP.
Nameless Voice9 votesI will still ban a heavily contested pick if last pick indicates that they want to play it, but has little chance of actually getting the champion and hasn't arranged to swap with an earlier pick.
XinZhao2WinNhao1 votesThere's no pick that's that heavily contested though. Yasuo's pick rate is 6%. That means there's a 3% chance the enemy team is going to get Yasuo.
Even the most highest picked champ has a 40% pick rate, that means there's only a 20% chance the enemy team will get him.
Nameless Voice2 votesI don't know where you're getting those numbers from.
He's banned in ~49% of games, picked mid in ~5.6% of games, and picked top in ~7% of games. That means that he is picked in 12.61% of games, and in 25.7% of the games that he is not banned.
And that's in Platinum+. He has a higher pick and ban rate in lower MMR (probably closer to 27%.)
Dolasaur1 votesThere's no pick that's that heavily contested though. Yasuo's pick rate is 6%. That means there's a 3% chance the enemy team is going to get Yasuo.
Even the most highest picked champ has a 40% pick rate, that means there's only a 20% chance the enemy team will get him.
Eh, not quite. You're forgetting the role of overlap when talking about last picks. There's a .94 chance that both teams choose to not pick him. The likelihood of that is equal to the square of both team individually choosing to not pick him. So sqrt(.94) ~= .9695. So if you know the entire enemy team will pick before your team's last pick, then they actually have ~3.05% chance to pick Yasuo :)
Of course, that's much more impactful at higher pick rates; a champion with 75% overall pick rate would have approximately 50% desired pick rate from both sides (rather than 37.5%).
Edit: I ban Zed and Rengar because I absolutely hate playing against them, regardless of strength or popularity or metaness. I do not ban them if someone on my team has put them up for pick intent; that's generally pretty arrogant and good way to destroy team coherency before the game even begins.
Amusingly enough, I personally have had more people that did not declare pick intent say "you banned my Zed" than I have seen people declare him with pick intent.
XinZhao2WinNhao1 votesNot exactly because under that model, both teams could pick Yasuo whereas in ranked that's not true.
You'd have to make extra calculations to demonstrate the fact that once someone picks Yasuo the other team can't pick Yasuo and that's a complicated calculation which depends on exactly which pick order the enemy mid is.
Dolasaur1 votesNot exactly because under that model, both teams could pick Yasuo whereas in ranked that's not true.
You'd have to make extra calculations to demonstrate the fact that once someone picks Yasuo the other team can't pick Yasuo and that's a complicated calculation which depends on exactly which pick order the enemy mid is.
I'm specifically talking about the situation the very first reply mentioned (last pick Yasuo) that you seemed to be replying to at that time. And if you know your Yasuo-wannabe is after their potential Yasuo-wannabe (because you can see yours is absolute last pick), then it's simple.
I definitely agree that the calculation is nontrivial if your Yasuo-wannabe is not last pick, particularly since once people actually start picking and banning champions, you have tons of difficult-to-quantify influencing factors (like is their mid laner equally likely to pick Yasuo if their team has 4 knockup teammates vs. 0?).
XinZhao2WinNhao1 votesThe chances of a first pick Yasuo is different from the chances of a 3rd pick Yasuo on the enemy team, so it's actually nontrivial even if your Yasuo is last pick.
For example Yasuo is not a very common first pick, he's more common as a 2nd or 3rd pick.
L Psy Kongroo5 votesSorry, not gonna let Yasuo slip through ban phase. There's a far greater chance of getting a trash Yasuo on my team than getting a good one, because like 90% of Yasuo players are trash. I'll always ban him no matter what, and tbh if we're talking about ranked here, people should have more than one champion they're comfortable on. Even OTPs have backup picks in case their champ gets banned by the enemy team.
XinZhao2WinNhao3 votesThen don't ask people to declare their pick if you're just going to ban them. This thread is a response to http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/dTmhgimq-if-you-dont-declare-your-champ because it got 38 upvotes and I'm trying to explain why people would want to hide their pick intent.
People say "showing your pick intent helps team comp" well if you have a 60% chance that people will ban your champ if you show pick intent why would you show pick intent?
L Psy Kongroo1 votesThen don't ask people to declare their pick if you're just going to ban them. This thread is a response to http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/dTmhgimq-if-you-dont-declare-your-champ because it got 38 upvotes and I'm trying to explain why people would want to hide their pick intent.
People say "showing your pick intent helps team comp" well if you have a 60% chance that people will ban your champ if you show pick intent why would you show pick intent?
But if I don't ask them to show pick intent, how can I find the trash Yasuo player who'll go 0/7 in the first 10 minutes and blame the team before afking?
Quepha2 votesThen don't ask people to declare their pick if you're just going to ban them. This thread is a response to http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/dTmhgimq-if-you-dont-declare-your-champ because it got 38 upvotes and I'm trying to explain why people would want to hide their pick intent.
People say "showing your pick intent helps team comp" well if you have a 60% chance that people will ban your champ if you show pick intent why would you show pick intent?
Pretty passive-aggressive to make a separate thread to respond to something instead of just responding directly.
XinZhao2WinNhao1 votesIt's a counterclaim. In a debate, there are 2 main threads - a claim and a counterclaim, and they both get their separate threads in which people can comment on the claims themselves. In most online debates there's also a 3rd thread for people to actually debate each other using both evidence from the claim and the counterclaim.
Quepha1 votesIt's a counterclaim. In a debate, there are 2 main threads - a claim and a counterclaim, and they both get their separate threads in which people can comment on the claims themselves. In most online debates there's also a 3rd thread for people to actually debate each other using both evidence from the claim and the counterclaim.
That is definitely not how debates traditionally work.
XinZhao2WinNhao1 votesIt's how a debate would work to be unbiased.
There are usually 2 types of debates:
Change my view debates where one person highlights one view and people try to debate that one view. Premises are accepted from the views of the original post and is the original post is usually biased towards one side
and an unbiased debate where each view has equal exposure as the other - in other words, if one of the views has its own thread and comments, the other view must have equal exposure and have its own thread and comments too
EndlessSorcerer2 votesThat said, I'd definitely ban a Yasuo jungle. They are picking an extremely suboptimal champion and that champion is Yasuo (who has a reputation for poor and/or toxic players).
If they start raging or pick another horrible jungler, I'm just going to dodge that game and be thankful I found out they were toxic/idiotic before I was stuck in game with them.
SwaggyMcGhee4202 votesYeah, lets embrace stereotypes and judge based off of past experience, when you're playing with a completely new player... Yeah, you should dodge if you see a teammate is toxic while still in champ select, but you shouldn't ban their intended pick just because its suboptimal.
XinZhao2WinNhao2 votesThis.
EndlessSorcerer3 votesHonestly, I'm willing to put up with odd picks at times.
In the past, I've played with and against some odd picks and seen them work to great success in that individual game. Some examples would include:
However, Yasuo is an iffy champion for me at the best of times even when played in his proper roles. Due to past experience (over the course of many games), I dislike having Yasuo on my team or on the enemy team, period.
This is due to many factors including (but not limited to):
I prefer not having him in the game, so he's my default ban. If nothing else takes priority over Yasuo at the moment (i.e. Riven/Zed after Championship Skin, Nunu after his buffs, Jayce/Kennen during Worlds, etc), I'm just going to ban him.
L Psy Kongroo2 votesHonestly, I'm willing to put up with odd picks at times.
In the past, I've played with and against some odd picks and seen them work to great success in that individual game. Some examples would include:
- Varus Support
- Katarina Support
- Talon Support
- Teemo ADC
- Thresh Jungle (though that was due to a miscommunication)
- AP Shaco Top
If it is a normal game, I'm generally willing to play with it without complaints.
However, Yasuo is an iffy champion for me at the best of times even when played in their proper roles. Due to past experience (over the course of many games), I dislike having Yasuo on my team or on the enemy team, period.
This is due to many factors including (but not limited to):
- His tendency to attract toxic players (similar to Riven or Vayne)
- His feast/famine nature (he will generally either snowball or feed horribly)
- His selfish playstyle
- His tendency to ruin team compositions when picked inappropriately
- His high popularity can mean he will often be picked if he isn't banned
I prefer not having him in the game, so he's my default ban. If nothing else takes priority over Yasuo at the moment (i.e. Riven/Zed after Championship Skin, Nunu after his buffs, Jayce/Kennen during Worlds, etc), I'm just going to ban him.
Someone gets it. +1
SwaggyMcGhee4201 votesI'm just saying that it's not ok to ban someone's intended pick just because you've had bad games with that champion in the past. The chance a Yasuo player is toxic isn't much higher than the chance a Shyvana or Udyr player is.
Jorencice1 votesI currently have a 100% loss rate against leblanc in ranked.
That includes if shes on my team.
It got to the point where i ban her every single game.
One time i had an enemy leblanc go 26/4 the very next game my teammate picked leblanc.
She went 0/16.
I will never again let someone play leblanc. I dont care if its fucking bjergsan on a smurf.
SwaggyMcGhee4201 votesBan who you want, but it's still a dick move to ban a teammates intended pick.
XinZhao2WinNhao1 votesDon't get mad if the Yasuo ends up picking Ashe jungle then.
If you ban someone's main, they're likely to get mad and pick a champ that they're not very good at.
EndlessSorcerer1 votesLike I said, if they pick another horrible jungler, I'm just going to dodge.
I'd rather just wait out the timer (watching a video or reading) than play with someone who is likely either a troll or an idiot.
SwaggyMcGhee4201 votesYou listed a bunch of examples of off-meta builds that have worked successfully in the past, yet you're unwilling to play with a Yasuo jungle. I know from experience that a suboptimal build has the potential to work well if the player has practiced it enough.
Slythion1 votesjust because you showed your pick intent doesn't mean you are immune to bans, especially if the chances of you getting a contested champ is low or if it's just a shjt pick to begin with
XinZhao2WinNhao1 votesSo it's a lose-lose situation then.
If you don't show pick intent and your champ gets banned, people say "well you didn't show pick intent so it's not my fault I banned it".
While if you do show your pick intent and your champ gets banned, people say "well too bad".
Also even if a highly contested champ has a 40% pick rate over a game with 2 teams, that means that there's only a 20% chance the enemy team will get him and an 80% chance that you screwed over a teammate for no reason.
Slythion1 votesnot true at all, you're cherry-picking situations
"If you don't show pick intent and your champ gets banned, people say "well you didn't show pick intent so it's not my fault I banned it".
that's only if:
a) it was a decent pick b) you were likely to get it
While if you do show your pick intent and your champ gets banned, people say "well too bad".
this simply...well of course. That's just like...obvious right? There is literally no way to stop that situation from occurring and it's not any one's fault but your own for not saying who you want to play
so basically, if you are trying to get a highly contested pick as 4th / 5th or even sometimes 3rd pick, you can't expect to actually be able to play that champion and you can't expect your team to expect a highly contested champion to get through to your late-pick stage. And you also can't expect your team to just be ok with your op "pocket pick" yasuo jungle either...that's simply unfair to your team.
Also even if a highly contested champ has a 40% pick rate over a game with 2 teams, that means that there's only a 20% chance the enemy team will get him and an 80% chance that you screwed over a teammate for no reason.
that isn't correct statistics. Let's look at Syndra atm:
http://champion.gg/champion/Syndra/Middle
10.38% play rate + 55.26% ban rate
= 65.64% total game participation rate
That 10.38% play rate is produced from the ban rate. The "% play rate taken from games where Syndra is not banned" statistic would be much higher than 10.38% , because the opportunity to play Syndra has risen while the total number of games has not.
Now to your point: Let's go with Syndra's pick rate (taken from games where the champion is not banned) which would most likely be about 50% and assume you are last pick. That does not mean that 25% of the chance magically goes to the enemy team while you (the person that is pick intenting Syndra) make up the appointed 25% of your team. That means that out of the 9 the players that are picking before you, there is a 50% chance that Syndra will be picked before you, with the % increasing by each person that doesn't pick it.
XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes1 solution would be a system where you can't click to ban a champ a teammate selected, so there are solutions.
"That means that out of the 9 the players that are picking before you, there is a 50% chance that their team will take Syndra, with the % increasing by each person that doesn't pick it."
No it doesn't. See, Syndra can't be played in every lane. She's really only good mid. So in a game where there are 2 mid laners, the chances of one of them picking Syndra is 0.1038/(1-0.5526) which is around 22%. However, the enemy team only has 1 mid laner, so the changes of Syndra being picked by the other team halves, so it's 11%.
Slythion1 votesyou end percentage doesn't make sense, because if Syndra has a total play rate of 50% without being banned and so how would the enemy mid laner only have an 11% possibility to pick her?
XinZhao2WinNhao1 votesHer play rate when not being banned isn't 50%. It's 22% which is 0.1038/(1-0.5526).
Each game has 2 mid laners who could pick Syndra, however, the enemy team only has 1 mid laner that could pick Syndra before your mid laner.
So the chances of the enemy picking Syndra halves to become 11%.
Slythion1 votesher total play rate is not determined by (play rate) / (not-banned rate) ...
XinZhao2WinNhao1 votesWhy would it not be?
DrCyanide1 votes1 solution would be a system where you can't click to ban a champ a teammate selected, so there are solutions.
That would create a bigger problem than the one you're trying to solve. You'd have people picking Support, hovering the most OP champion of the patch (bugs, reworks, new build, etc can push a champ over the edge) and saying they're not going to let your team ban them unless someone swaps roles with them. If no one swaps, the other team gets it, and your "Support" will either not try or troll.
I think I've accidently banned my own champion as many times as someone else on my team has banned them, and I use pick intent almost every time. It lets your team (particularly the first few picks) alter their pick for what's best for the team, instead of going blindly.
If you're really worried about allies banning your champion, would you at least hover your champion after the banning phase? That would provide your team with the benefits of pick intent without any risk to you.
XinZhao2WinNhao1 votesWas never a fan of autofill, but if they wanted to troll they could in the current system too. Besides if you can't play against the most OP champ then you shouldn't play lol
I hate playing vs Heimerdinger but if I had to I can still play well.
SwaggyMcGhee4203 votesI agree that it's acceptable to ban someone's pick if it's likely to be chosen by the other team, but usually you shouldn't ban someone's pick just because it's not the best pick in the game.
Slythion1 votesif the dude was insinuating that he was pick intenting Yasuo jungle...you better be sure that his team doesn't deserve to sit through that. Same thing with other experimental builds
SwaggyMcGhee4201 votesJust because it's suboptimal doesn't mean it's not viable.
Slythion1 votesand just because it's viable doesn't mean it's acceptable
viable means it can work, optimal means it does work. Save the "it might work" stuff for normals where playing around with people's win rates doesn't effect anything to much
SwaggyMcGhee4201 votesIt means it's capable of working successfully, just like any other build or champ in the game. If you practice AD Leblanc top enough why shouldn't you be able to play it in ranked?
Slythion1 votesAnd why shouldn't your team be allowed to say "hey, let's not do this because literally no one knows how it works and it isn't going to help our team comp"?
if you are going to take unconventional picks that might work out you'd be stupid to think that your teammates will be ok to just go along for the ride. And they'd be stupid to just trust that some random dude taking ad lb top will be successful
SwaggyMcGhee4201 votesI've gone 22/0 with LB top in platinum elo before, and that's because it can work if you know how to play it. There's always a level of uncertainty and unreliability with every pick, no matter who is picked, because you can never be sure that they're as good as their lane opponent or even know what they're doing. Obviously, testing something new out for the first time in ranked is a bad idea, but if you've played 50 normal games as Draven jungle, with good results, why shouldn't you be able to play it in ranked?
Slythion1 votesyou just completely ignored my first sentence and used a situational result to try to counter the second part of my comment.
Just because it can work doesn't mean it is likely to work from a random's perspective, nor should you expect your 4 other teammates to just assume that your some random god at ad lb top. Literally anything can work, I could go Soraka jungle and be 10/1 under the right circumstances, or AP renekton support with a score of 2/1/19. But why would you do these things that are obviously not the most efficient picks that put your team at a disadvantage and force them to adapt. Why do you think they don't have the right to go "hey, I'm not comfortable with this unconventional pick that no one knows how to adapt to or play with yet. Let's not have a game where there is a loose variable that we have no idea what the end result could be, and is more likely to fail than to succeed"
and on what account is that leblanc game, because you have no leblanc games on that profile that I could find...
SwaggyMcGhee4201 votesBecause you don't have a way to reliably know whether or not the off meta player actually knows what they're doing... You shouldn't ban a champ because you don't know how to play with them of if they don't work with your team comp... The chance of it working depends on the player's experience and knowledge with the role. You shouldn't be forced to play the meta just because it's the most effective choice. Azir has a pretty low winrate. Would you ban Azir if your teammates intended to pick him? You're basically saying that you shouldn't be allowed to pick an off meta pick because it puts your team at a disadvantage, when picking any champ that's not top teir puts your team at a disadvantage to some extent. Also, off-meta picks aren't more likely to fail than succeed, if the player is familiar with the strategy and has some experience with matchups (which the enemy most likely doesn't).
The Leblanc game was several months ago, on toothierosprey3.
Jesus Is My King1 votesif i saw support going mf. id ban it faster than you can react to her going mf support
XinZhao2WinNhao2 votesWell I hope people ban your picks too then.
Chalizard1 votesI guess you are right but you wrote that in such... Agressive?... Way that you get downvoted but what are you saying is True. Anyway I still ban yasuo just to not play against any not only cause I don't want one in my team.
Vekkna1 votesIt's one thing to knee-jerk ban a pick intent. It's a whole other deal if you check their history and decide to ban because they build Essence Reaver on Katarina. Not that you would ever do that.
...
XinZhao2WinNhao1 votesThat's called an even greater dick move if you purposely ban a teammates champ because you don't like how they play them.
Not that you would ever do that.
paperbIade1 votesThat's called an even greater dick move if you purposely ban a teammates champ because you don't like how they play them.
Not that you would ever do that.
idk why you are downvoted