Boards›Gameplay

The problem with Azir is the same as tank assassins: bad MR itemization

Hyrum Graff··5 votes·1,380 views

Armor itemization for tanks:

  • item 3143 item 3742 item 3068 Big-ticket HP+Armor items which give you a huge amount of effective HP vs physical damage.
  • item 3143 item 3110 item 3075 Designed to counter AA-based dps carries.

MR itemization for tanks:

  • item 3190 Always bought by the support and the aura doesn't stack, so it's often wasted stats
  • item 3065 has wasted stats unless you're mundo or another self-healer.
  • item 3102 doesn't have much HP, so it's not a great 1-item wonder, and its passive works vs burst, not dps.

Honorable mention: item 3156 Good vs AP burst, not so good vs dps

It's usually OK for MR to be weak

Because most AP champions are spellcasters. They have cooldowns, so MR has to be weak; if it's strong, they're useless.

Azir changes the paradigm

Azir brings marksman-level magic dps. Normal MR isn't sufficient against him. That's his problem.

This is also the problem with tank assassins (who, you'll notice, are all AP): MR itemization is designed to counter burst, not DPS. So if you build tank and use your base damages to do dps, you're much more effective.

The solution: New MR items!

As we covered earlier, we can't just buff MR, or we invalidate AP casters. So instead, we need a new type of MR item, the equivalent of Frozen Heart or Thornmail.

Some people will say "Locket is the MR version of FH." Well, kind of. FH reduces dps from aa-based champs, not AD casters. Locket reduces all magic damage. That means locket is equally effective vs AP marksmen and vs AP spellcasters, in which case we're back to the same problem, that strong MR itemization will invalidate AP casters.

We need a better way to counter-build Azir that doesn't stop an assassin from blowing me up. Tbh, I'm not sure what that item would look like. But that's what we need.

Edit for clarification

I don't think MR itemization is Azir's only problem. The point is that magic dps + safety is a problem because there's not an effective way to counterbuild Azir (or tank assassins).

Restated, if you could counterbuild Azir, his overloaded kit would not be as big of an issue, because a tank could dive him and lock him down long enough to kill him, instead of diving him and dying before anyone can follow up.

30 Comments

SaltyKracka3 votes

Frankly, we just need another big ticket MR item that avoids being the shitshow that Banshee's Veil has turned into.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

Frankly, we just need another big ticket MR item that avoids being the shitshow that Banshee's Veil has turned into.

I actually think banshee's serves pretty well as a big ticket MR item -- 70 MR is no joke -- it's just not a one-item wonder like it used to be, so it's a bad rush. Its passive also doesn't really fit well with the 'big ticket MR item' identity, nor does it help vs magic dps.

What if there were another item that built from the same components as banshee's. It has a unique passive with the same name as banshee's, but acts differently. This item, when you first get damaged by a spell, it starts a 3 second timer. If you're still alive when the timer runs out, you get a large shield.

That way, assassins/burst mages can still pop you (it's not a good 1-item wonder on adcs), but it gives tanks some much-needed survivability vs dps.

Sohleks1 votes

I would say banshees is a fine rush item for a few tanky laners. Mainly my Gnar. Cause as a resourceless ranged dps tank he can bully a squishy ap that dare went top vs. him rushing this. The lost HP is irrelevant because you can continue building that stat on other items like Sunfire, Frozen Mallet, or Black Cleaver. It's only at 6 items is the lower slot efficiency really felt and by then you COULD consider trading it out. In fact the low cost of this item is beneficial as it allows you to advance on further core items quicker. Gnar is a bit unique with those tanky manaless ranged dps traits however.

But yeah. Overall sustained DPS ap has incredible potential in game because of the design of tank itemization (favoring 2/3rds armor usually) but it's a response to the typical meta game with AD champs being the sustained damage dealers with AP champs beign burst / utility. Tank items are tuned around the standard meta game. As a result sustained AP champs that defy the norm have ENORMOUS potential to carry games by busting what incoming damage is normally like. Azir is not alone in this. Cassiopeia does this too and due to her potential power and skillcap she is hard to balance for professional and casual play. After that I would say Karthus comes next who is also really strong whenever IF he gets through laning unpunished.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

And Ryze.

The problem is, if they nerf those champions' dps down to normal levels, it's better to play a champ who can burst. But if the damage is high it's problematic because of itemization, as discussed.

Riot's solution thus far has been to make AP dps champs really hard to play. Which leads to the LCS vs regular people balancing problems we have today.

Talinis1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xucGfYtR,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-06-28T02:19:41.087+0000)

I actually think banshee's serves pretty well as a big ticket MR item -- 70 MR is no joke -- it's just not a one-item wonder like it used to be, so it's a bad rush. Its passive also doesn't really fit well with the 'big ticket MR item' identity, nor does it help vs magic dps.

What if there were another item that built from the same components as banshee's. It has a unique passive with the same name as banshee's, but acts differently. This item, when you first get damaged by a spell, it starts a 3 second timer. If you're still alive when the timer runs out, you get a large shield.

That way, assassins/burst mages can still pop you (it's not a good 1-item wonder on adcs), but it gives tanks some much-needed survivability vs dps.

Ya man, like an assassin can pop a tank in three seconds... ya not really, a tank getting frozen heart will reduce azir's dps, sure the rest of it doesn't do much vs azir but it combines with the other MR items. I mean, a tank isn't going to get only mr items in a match now is he and if they have adc with azir it isn't a bad buy, esp if top or jungle might rely on aa's as well. Azir's problem is too much mobility combined with his safety and zone potential. He should not have all that with that kind of sustain dps.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

Ya man, like an assassin can pop a tank in three seconds... ya not really, a tank getting frozen heart will reduce azir's dps, sure the rest of it doesn't do much vs azir but it combines with the other MR items. I mean, a tank isn't going to get only mr items in a match now is he and if they have adc with azir it isn't a bad buy, esp if top or jungle might rely on aa's as well. Azir's problem is too much mobility combined with his safety and zone potential. He should not have all that with that kind of sustain dps.

Whynotboth.jpeg

Erockandroll1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xucGfYtR,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-06-28T02:19:41.087+0000)

I actually think banshee's serves pretty well as a big ticket MR item -- 70 MR is no joke -- it's just not a one-item wonder like it used to be, so it's a bad rush. Its passive also doesn't really fit well with the 'big ticket MR item' identity, nor does it help vs magic dps.

What if there were another item that built from the same components as banshee's. It has a unique passive with the same name as banshee's, but acts differently. This item, when you first get damaged by a spell, it starts a 3 second timer. If you're still alive when the timer runs out, you get a large shield.

That way, assassins/burst mages can still pop you (it's not a good 1-item wonder on adcs), but it gives tanks some much-needed survivability vs dps.

While I like the idea of a MR item that's a bit better at handling DPS. DPS mages are pretty much designed to melt their targets, and their not really good at anything else. (No tower taking abilities that ADC's enjoy)

If anything, the DPS mage's weakness, should be an Assassin. But this would only hold if said mage was a glass cannon. But Azir's synergy with crystal scepter makes that a problem. Not only does it make him harder to burst, but it greatly increases his already good Zoning ability, making it harder for enemies to even approach him.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

While I like the idea of a MR item that's a bit better at handling DPS. DPS mages are pretty much designed to melt their targets, and their not really good at anything else. (No tower taking abilities that ADC's enjoy)

If anything, the DPS mage's weakness, should be an Assassin. But this would only hold if said mage was a glass cannon. But Azir's synergy with crystal scepter makes that a problem. Not only does it make him harder to burst, but it greatly increases his already good Zoning ability, making it harder for enemies to even approach him.

This seems reasonable.

Akali is SO HOT3 votes

Or how about we just nerf Azir instead of making tanks even more overpowered than they already are.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xucGfYtR,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-06-28T03:52:54.121+0000)

Or how about we just nerf Azir instead of making tanks even more overpowered than they already are.

Let's be clear: I don't want a new MR item that works against burst. As I said in my post, that would invalidate spell-based AP champs, which is bad.

If a new item did end up making tanks stronger and a certain class (assassins) weak, then that leaves room to buff those assassins in interesting ways. Or we can nerf those tanks elsewhere.

IMO, Your argument is in favor of "we should do these changes, but they'll also need some follow-up balance work", not an argument for "we shouldn't do these changes."

Sohleks2 votes

I do lean though that the problem with Azir. Is Azir. Safe high utility high scaling poke siege control dps mage. Don't dive him and you're probably done. Somehow get in his face over that range? You're ulted away and blocked, with some of the stuff you used to close the gap already exhausted. Hardly weak in lane at all and gives his team lots of options in terms of jungle choke fights or sieging or objective dps.... He has no defined strengths other than "generally overpowered" when played well.

Overbuff MR items and you see what happens to tanks and the meta like most of season six. AP champs get pushed away as 1 MR item blocks them too hard and 2 items block them forever. AD champs start to.. not really replace AP but they take the leading role in the meta and your AP champ is just that guy you have to bring along so they buy some cloaks. As a result you'd mostly see 1 MR item block your AP and you saw this build everywhere item 3068 item 3025 item 3065 . Ironically strong MR made armor super strong as well because the MR item was buy it and forget it and there weren't enough counters. Well today we have more competitive AP champs and black cleaver for fighters and overall a much much mroe diverse meta and I'm in no hurry to go back.

LiveYiOrDieHard2 votes

No, the problem with Azir is Riot still can't properly value range, mobility, and utility. All of which Azir has out the ass.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

we need one more mr item. veil is the only option to buy mr when the enemy ap carry has a lot of penetration thats mr boots and sv don't cut it. i don't like to buy banshees. its freakin useless.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

we need one more mr item. veil is the only option to buy mr when the enemy ap carry has a lot of penetration thats mr boots and sv don't cut it. i don't like to buy banshees. its freakin useless.

I think you could take away his ult entirely and he would still be strong in pro play (though much weaker in laning), simply by virtue of the amount of magic dps he does.

Blumpkin Nation1 votes

Are you high? Spirit Visage gives a lot for how much it costs. It's honestly the best MR item in the game.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blumpkin Nation,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xucGfYtR,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-06-28T03:46:40.230+0000)

Are you high? Spirit Visage gives a lot for how much it costs. It's honestly the best MR item in the game.

It gives 55 MR. That's nothing compared to the amount of armor you can stack, and Azir does marksman-level dps.

Aids cuz League1 votes

Id like to point out that the problem is indeed Azir. Each subsequent Azir soldier makes the ability do less damage, but the attacks double. AD people are far worse to deal with and tank AP is different in terms of MR building as a lot of the tank AP mages have % damage whereas the others do not. Frozen Heart does counter Azir as well as it actually slows his attack speed by a %. But all in all other than Azir, the problem lies within the company that balances the game, because when you build to counter, you also give the enemy an advantage. When you honestly imagine this game with no tank/defensive items, remove the % damage/true damage. You'd have an all around balanced game. Look at Taliyah, she has no % damage, still kills people, but she doesn't oppress.

I am against another MR item as mages who didn't receive updates have a hard time damaging tanks with 2 MR Items and Health, even though we have void staff, it's still a pain. Meanwhile Last whisper is the same price, gives less ad but Grievous Wounds on autos, or 15% extra damage. Hell, even Vel'Koz has a hard time damaging tanks and his ult deals true damage after 3 stacks and that's just dumb.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

Id like to point out that the problem is indeed Azir. Each subsequent Azir soldier makes the ability do less damage, but the attacks double. AD people are far worse to deal with and tank AP is different in terms of MR building as a lot of the tank AP mages have % damage whereas the others do not. Frozen Heart does counter Azir as well as it actually slows his attack speed by a %. But all in all other than Azir, the problem lies within the company that balances the game, because when you build to counter, you also give the enemy an advantage. When you honestly imagine this game with no tank/defensive items, remove the % damage/true damage. You'd have an all around balanced game. Look at Taliyah, she has no % damage, still kills people, but she doesn't oppress.

You're right that FH works vs azir. But when you build FH vs a marksman, you can take advantage of both the aura AND the armor. Building an armor item to counter a champion that does magic damage is not efficient.

I am against another MR item as mages who didn't receive updates have a hard time damaging tanks with 2 MR Items and Health, even though we have void staff, it's still a pain. Meanwhile Last whisper is the same price, gives less ad but Grievous Wounds on autos, or 15% extra damage. Hell, even Vel'Koz has a hard time damaging tanks and his ult deals true damage after 3 stacks and that's just dumb.

As I said in my post, we need an MR item that works vs dps, not an MR item that works vs burst, which is what all other AP champions are.

I'm not saying that tanks need to be buffed. If we added another MR item we'd need to do balance changes to the rest of MR, tanks, mages, assassins, etc. So be it.

Look past the numbers. This is about making it possible to balance Azir, not actually doing the balancing.

Aids cuz League1 votes

Azir has had a lot of nerfs, I honestly don't think he's that strong. I hate going against him, yeah, but is another MR item needed, not at all. Why not just change his soldiers so they have an attack speed of their own per champion level. Like... 5% per champion level, at level 6 this goes to 10% a level, they apply on hit effects at half the damage(Nashors AP dmg on hit/Wits End magic dmg on hit stuff) and slows through items are reduced to 1/3rd of effectiveness. (Rylais). This would be an effective way to keep his mage marksman style, while also keeping it less oppressive.

BloodyTompon1 votes

The problem with Azir is the same as tank assassins: bad MR itemization

I disagree. Increased MR itemisation necessitates increased penetration items. Having said that, I wouldn't be opposed to penetration changes. That's something I feel will need to be addressed eventually, but I think it will probably be a year or two away.

It's usually OK for MR to be weak Because most AP champions are spellcasters. They have cooldowns, so MR has to be weak; if it's strong, they're useless.

Azir changes the paradigm Azir brings marksman-level magic dps. Normal MR isn't sufficient against him. That's his problem.

Again, I disagree. Azir is not the first mage to bring sustained magic DPS. Karthus and Cass do this too. (Old Cass and Azir were experiments in giving magic damage more marksmen-like damage and power curves though- Slightly more multiplicative than the CDR, AP, Pen itemisation brought.)

The main problem is not the itemisation, it is Azir himself. He has two problems that are slightly related. Scaling way too well with skill/games played. The second is having so many strengths and few weaknesses -- This is related to ( or exacerbated by) the first in that a skilled player is often able to circumvent his weaknesses. In short, he has a case of Lee Syndrome.

The difficult in balancing him is again two fold. What strengths and weaknesses do you target? Do you balance around pro games and make him virtually impossible to pick up for new or low MMR players?

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

I disagree. Increased MR itemisation necessitates increased penetration items. Having said that, I wouldn't be opposed to penetration changes. That's something I feel will need to be addressed eventually, but I think it will probably be a year or two away. Because most AP champions are spellcasters. They have cooldowns, so MR has to be weak; if it's strong, they're useless. Azir brings marksman-level magic dps. Normal MR isn't sufficient against him. That's his problem.

Again, I disagree. Azir is not the first mage to bring sustained magic DPS. Karthus and Cass do this too. (Old Cass and Azir were experiments in giving magic damage more marksmen-like damage and power curves though- Slightly more multiplicative than the CDR, AP, Pen itemisation brought.)

The main problem is not the itemisation, it is Azir himself. He has two problems that are slightly related. Scaling way too well with skill/games played. The second is having so many strengths and few weaknesses -- This is related to ( or exacerbated by) the first in that a skilled player is often able to circumvent his weaknesses. In short, he has a case of Lee Syndrome.

The difficult in balancing him is again two fold. What strengths and weaknesses do you target? Do you balance around pro games and make him virtually impossible to pick up for new or low MMR players?

Perhaps I should have clarified in the OP, but I don't think MR itemization is Azir's only problem. The point is that magic dps + safety is a problem because there's not an effective way to counterbuild Azir (or tank assassins).

Restated, if you could counterbuild Azir, his overloaded kit would not be as big of an issue, because a tank could dive him and lock him down long enough to kill him, instead of diving him and dying before anyone can follow up.

BloodyTompon2 votes

Tank assassins have a different problem set to Azir. The problem with assassins is itemisation prevents their weaknesses from showing, Azir's problem is his kit preventing it.

I do think you're touching on something though. The MR and Ap itemisation isn't sufficient. Tbh itemisation in general is all over the place. Because it's a 'living' game Riot can't introduce an extra 100 items at once, they have to do piecemeal work, slowly adding and segregating the use cases. Every class update should have an associated itemisation cluster.

In going with that, the particular item cluster I think you're hitting on is the AP hyperscaling/marksmen type and the conjugate MR items.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

Tank assassins have a different problem set to Azir. The problem with assassins is itemisation prevents their weaknesses from showing,

This is true. Here's the thing: when you use items to cover up your weaknesses, you should be giving up some of your strengths. I believe that the problem is also that tank assassins don't give up much of their strengths for not building AP, because you can't effectively counterbuild magic dps.

I guess that's kind of the same thing I just said about Azir.

I do think you're touching on something though. The MR and Ap itemisation isn't sufficient. Tbh itemisation in general is all over the place. Because it's a 'living' game Riot can't introduce an extra 100 items at once, they have to do piecemeal work, slowly adding and segregating the use cases. Every class update should have an associated itemisation cluster.

In going with that, the particular item cluster I think you're hitting on is the AP hyperscaling/marksmen type and the conjugate MR items.

Related: this old post of mine is somewhat relevant.

BloodyTompon1 votes

when you use items to cover up your weaknesses, you should be giving up some of your strengths. I believe that the problem is also that tank assassins don't give up much of their strengths for not building AP, because you can't effectively counterbuild magic dps

While I agree with the not giving up enough strengths, wouldn't that just change the itemisation that tank assassins utilise? I think the issue was/is half kit-based, half itemisation. Imo the itemisation problem was Sunfire and IBG.

Related: this old post of mine is somewhat relevant.

Yeah, this is basically what I'm saying.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

While I agree with the not giving up enough strengths, wouldn't that just change the itemisation that tank assassins utilise? I think the issue was/is half kit-based, half itemisation. Imo the itemisation problem was Sunfire and IBG.

Yeah, this is basically what I'm saying.

It would force AP assassins to build void staff to be effective, which is one fewer tank item they can build.

BloodyTompon1 votes

If both top laners build it, it's the same wet noodle fight. Net result being they're both tankier and take longer to kill. They're isn't much incentive for a tank assassin to build void staff unless their main target (squishies) can survive and kill them. But if squishies build the tank MR item then 1) that shuts down too many people other than tank assassins. 2) it is the same problem as tank assassins- squishes building tanky.

I'm just not seeing another larger MR item as a solution for tank assassins.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

If both top laners build it, it's the same wet noodle fight. Net result being they're both tankier and take longer to kill. They're isn't much incentive for a tank assassin to build void staff unless their main target (squishies) can survive and kill them. But if squishies build the tank MR item then 1) that shuts down too many people other than tank assassins. 2) it is the same problem as tank assassins- squishes building tanky.

I'm just not seeing another larger MR item as a solution for tank assassins.

That's assuming you still have 2 assassins top.

Instead, imagine you have a tank vs an assassin top. The tank builds this new MR item. The assassin builds sunfire (?). The tank beats the living shit out of the assassin.

Part of the reason tank assassins work is because they're also strong in lane and snowball hard. This item would help to mitigate this.

BloodyTompon1 votes

And if they both build the MR item?

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

And if they both build the MR item?

Then they're stacking a ton of MR and are going to be much weaker to adcs.

Edit: misread that as "and if they build both MR items?"

For one, not all tanks do magic damage. But let's say this one does. If they both build the MR item, then it's a wet noodle fight top, and the real tank can farm up and outscale. Depending on the tank, they may also be able to shove the assassin into turret and roam.

RogueWill1 votes

I said it before, we need at item similar to item 3071 that basically will stack everytime you get hit by a spell making following spells weaker.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Hyrum Graff

DoTs can feel impactful if you show how much damage they WILL do as soon as they hit
Gameplay356 comments
825
votes
@meddler @kateykhaos The dragon icons need tweaking for clarity
Gameplay155 comments
299
votes
Can we all agree that towers are in a pretty good spot right now?
Gameplay138 comments
194
votes
DQ has problems. So did the old system. Introducing Club Ranked
Gameplay182 comments
160
votes
ZED CHANGES ARE TARGETED AT FRUSTRATION, NOT POWER
Gameplay213 comments
146
votes
Small Ekko nerf: better counterplay through better ult clarity (QOL for enemies)
Gameplay90 comments
127
votes