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I don't care if he has a negative win rate, if he's not "in the meta," if pros do not pick him...

Melledoneus··119 votes·8,444 views

Yasuo's kit is unhealthy. This is a basic fact. Having nearly unparalleled mobility in fights and during laning phase while also being able to zone enemies with a wall that can simultaneously be used defensively and aggressively is frustrating to play against. You basically need to find a way to CC a fed Yasuo and gang up on him to defeat him without him using you as a stepping stone to gut your carries. Yasuo does every assassin's job better where if he jumps an ADC alone, even if they are uber fed, he can 1v1 them and win no problem because of his wind wall.

He can use it mid-Q. He can cancel animations. He can essentially out-run your abilities and combos because he can move so damn fast in everything he does. And even tanks are made quick work of him because no matter how much armor or HP you build, Yasuo will shred you.

I'm sorry, but 100% crit chance has to come with a downside besides a SLIGHT damage reduction to crits. Nobody should hit late game DPS in two items.

Is this your average Yasuo QQ thread? Until this point, yes. So, let me make this a productive discussion. What can we do to make this champion less frustrating to play against? Here are some suggestions:

-Find a more interactive way for Yasuo to utilize critical strike chance. Simply giving him a free 2x multiplier on crit is basically encouraging stat-sticking design and the only way you can beat this is to kill him before he kills you by having more damage than him.

-Make Yasuo's E animation slower or give it a higher cooldown to make his mobility meaningful. There are no other champions in the game that can throw away dashes like that and not suffer for it at all. (Yes, even Riven pays for using her Q for running, such as losing her main damage combo)

-Turn windwall into something more strategic. Simply dropping a wall that stops ALL enemy projectiles basically invalidates almost every champion in the game from using a potent ability. It feels especially horrible when that champion relies on skillshots, like Ahri or Jhin. Watching all your efforts melt into a wall of wind sucks. I propose that wind wall should maybe be a quick-cast ability that briefly lets Yasuo slice an arc in front of him that moves forward from where he casted it, stopping smaller projectiles (Ezreal Q, Blitzcrank hook) and slowing bigger projectiles (Nami ult, Braum ultimate) as it moves through them. The cooldown will be long, but maybe there could be a charge system to make it more meaningful to use it. Right now it's such a feast-or-famine ability to use.

-Remove the ability to cancel important animations such as Q, E, windwall, or ult. Yasuo is a skirmisher, not an assassin. He should be dealing damage over time, not doing quick combos with little to no animation time.

-Remove the safety that his ult gives him. Yasuo's ultimate has so much power it's ridiculous. First, it refreshes his passive shield. So his ultimate essentially minimizes the risk of ulting in the middle of a fight with multiple enemies. Second, it grants him 50% bonus armor penetration for quite a while. More stats, yay interaction. Third, it positions him as far away from a turret as possible when he ults an opponent under a turret, sometimes not even requiring Yasuo's mode to be IN THE ANIMATION SPACE. Holy crap, this is the stupidest one. You're hardly safe under your turret while he can dive you from right outside the radius. Some of that power needs to go.

I'm open to any ideas. And to all the Yasuo mains out there, this means that your champion could get shiny new animations, so don't complain!

249 Comments

Lord Droverson34 votes

I ban him every game. I know he has "counters", but that later the game goes, I know he'll become a monster. He's like Nasus to me.

Even if I crush him in lane, it just feels inevitable that will will come back and carry.

Elikain3 votes

So you ban Susan as well? What's left of actual bans if you ban these two?

Sraeg20134 votes

He then gets one-shot by Vayne with even less counterplay apparently.

Catastrophic20 votes

I love how every yasuo main's argument to these threads is "oh a QQ thread please stop", and no counter arguments or actual discussion is presented.

Battlecast Sona11 votes

it's because the counterargument is "git gud" and "cc him" and "hard counter him", which everyone knows aren't real counter arguments because they're counterarguments to literally everything. People were saying this crap in defense of Tank Ekko when it was in every LCS game.

Sraeg20135 votes

The thing is, if you ignore those counter-arguments of "git gud", "cc him" and "hard counter him", then every single champion in the game has no counterplay, counterbuilds and counterpicks.

You do need to know champion cooldowns, ranges, gauge their damage at any point of the game, which champions are or aren't good against them, etc.

Yes, there are champions which are substantially stronger where it matters less, but when it comes to Yasuo "balance" threads, it boils down to "I want Yasuo to be so weak I will win against him without knowing anything about the game".

Kinnikuko4 votes

Basically this. These players who barely even touched the champ write these essays like they know anything about actual balance when their views are biased as HELL

AninLegions7773 votes

What other argument do you expect?! "Go to the reaver at the break of dawn, covered in red paint and chant 7 times "counter yasuo"" Something like that? Hell no. CC him. Legit. Hard Counter him. Legit since there are so many top and mid lane counters. Git gud. A joke but one with some truth in it. If you are good at the game, you won't have problems with a champions kit. Riven has far more mobility that Yas because Yas needs a target. Riven just spams it and deals a ton of damage. Do you QQ about riven? Nope. Riven has a shield that scales with AD, Ult that increases AA and ability range, Stun and Knockup. Do you QQ about her? Nope. Riven can destroy your ADC without full rotation of abilities but do you QQ about her? Noooope. Riven is by far more "unhealthy".

Serber19 votes

[deleted]

dakota saturn6 votes

{quoted}

Congratulations summoner! You've hit the lucky number 3,000 for the number of "Average Yasuo QQ threads!" You showed admiration by applying a side dish of "Gimme some suggestions on how we could make his kit less toxic hue hue" to pretend as if you don't just want to make the same repetitive complaint about one champion!

In line for the next meaningful and definitely going somewhere that isn't a beaten horse complaint, we'll host a thread complaining about Lee Sin and Zed!

Who on earth complains about Zed? He's actually in a really good spot - not too strong, not too weak. He has a lot of outplay potential, but he has to be smart in how he does it. When you die to him, it's because you messed up, not because his kit is fucking toxic and he presses a single button and erases your entire combo.

He's so easily countered it's not even funny.

His entire kit is negated by a single item. item 3157

But he can still do his job late game, unlike most assassins these days.

JustMonika134 votes

[{quoted}](name=dakota saturn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xon7nxlu,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-11-24T01:07:43.081+0000)

Who on earth complains about Zed? He's actually in a really good spot - not too strong, not too weak. He has a lot of outplay potential, but he has to be smart in how he does it. When you die to him, it's because you messed up, not because his kit is fucking toxic and he presses a single button and erases your entire combo.

He's so easily countered it's not even funny.

His entire kit is negated by a single item. item 3157

But he can still do his job late game, unlike most assassins these days.

You obviously weren't around for the first half of Season 6. Even past that, there are still the occasional threads.

dakota saturn5 votes

{quoted}

You obviously weren't around for the first half of Season 6. Even past that, there are still the occasional threads.

Yeah sure he was complained about a year ago - Both himself and items have been changed quite a bit since that time.

JedenVojak15 votes

sigh Well, let's address your general points.

Having nearly unparalleled mobility in fights...There are no other champions in the game that can throw away dashes like that and not suffer for it at all

His mobility is spammable but it's also limited and nowhere near as free as someone like Vayne or Lucian - his dashes are always in a straight line for a fixed distance, which must come through a unit which he has not traversed recently, which means you know where he's going to end for any given dash, which means you know where you can aim your shots. His dashes are also extremely position dependent both on his part and by the presence of enemies.

Catch him in the river, for instance, and his supposed super mobility counts for almost nothing.

while also being able to zone enemies with a wall that can simultaneously be used defensively and aggressively is frustrating to play against... Simply dropping a wall that stops ALL enemy projectiles basically invalidates almost every champion in the game from using a potent ability. It feels especially horrible when that champion relies on skillshots, like Ahri or Jhin. Watching all your efforts melt into a wall of wind sucks.

This ability has a number of ways to play around it such as

  • Move to the side of the wall than shoot
  • Move through the wall then shoot
  • Wait for the wall to wear off

Aside from that, it has an 18 second cooldown at max rank on an ability he maxes last. You can bait his windwall and take advantage of the cooldown to shoot him if you're so inclined. A good rule of thumb is to hold onto your CC move until you can circumvent his wall either by avoiding it or timing it out.

You basically need to find a way to CC a fed Yasuo and gang up on him to defeat him without him using you as a stepping stone to gut your carries.

Well, a fed champion tends to have a significant stat advantage over other non-fed people, especially since they tend to rush damage items so it can often be difficult to stop these types of champions. This is not something that's exclusive to Yasuo.

Yasuo does every assassin's job better where if he jumps an ADC alone, even if they are uber fed, he can 1v1 them and win no problem because of his wind wall.

Again, this is not something exclusive to Yasuo - Jax, Wukong, Jarvan and other melee fighter champs can jump on lone ADC's and murder them. In fact, some ranged ADCs are also pretty good at this kind of thing (like Tristana, or Lucian, or Vayne).

And even tanks are made quick work of him because no matter how much armor or HP you build, Yasuo will shred you.

Well, as an adc champion, it's natural that tank killing would be among Yasuo's strengths.

I'm sorry, but 100% crit chance has to come with a downside besides a SLIGHT damage reduction to crits

I don't think you're really taking into account the way that crit damage reduction actually effects Yasuo. Consider the difference between Yasuo and Jinx both building a statik shiv:

Yasuo builds the item and gains 48% effective bonus damage to his auto attacks from the crit (60% crit chance for him) on the item. Jinx Builds the item and gains 30% effective bonus damage to her auto attacks from the crit (30% for her) on the item.

While Yasuo does receive and overall larger offensive bonus from the item, keep in mind that Jinx is ranged and can fire her crits as AOE's up to 700 range - Yasuo must close the gap for his crit; the statistical bonus is to make up for his inherently riskier playstyle as a melee ADC.

Yasuo's ultimate has so much power it's ridiculous.

Really? It actually seems to be a pretty limited ability as far as ults are concerned. I mean, you have ults that can make people invulnerable, ults that can stun an entire team, ults that affect the game globally in a number of ways from healing the team to killing people across the map. I mean, Yasuo has trouble even using his ult by himself.

First, it refreshes his passive shield. So his ultimate essentially minimizes the risk of ulting in the middle of a fight with multiple enemies.

So his ult gives him access to the 1 second shield he has in his kit. That's not unreasonable given that it's an engage.

Second, it grants him 50% bonus armor penetration for quite a while. More stats, yay interaction.

Jax Lulu DrMundo Vayne Riven Olaf Talon Sivir are all examples of champions which have self-buff ults that give them bonus stats in some form or another. This is hardly something exclusive to Yasuo.

Third, it positions him as far away from a turret as possible when he ults an opponent under a turret, sometimes not even requiring Yasuo's mode to be IN THE ANIMATION SPACE. Holy crap, this is the stupidest one. You're hardly safe under your turret while he can dive you from right outside the radius.

Any long range mage or marksmen can often shoot you under your turret with multiple spells and auto attacks up to and including their ultimates, but because Yasuo can do this with his ULTIMATE that's somehow a bad thing?

Some of that power needs to go.

So an ultimate that lets you blink to an enemy, gives you a stat buff, gives you a short duration shield for some damage, on an ability which must either be triggered through a heavily telegraphed skillshot which must be set up or someone else from your team, is somehow beyond the scope of power for an ultimate? There are ults that completely shut down entire teams by themselves and win games, you know?

Yasuo's kit is unhealthy. This is a basic fact.

Well, I suppose if I simply outlined every strength a champion had and downplayed or completely ignored every weakness possessed by the champion or his abilities, I could claim that any champion was unhealthy. That would hardly make my claims facts, however.

Aptest4 votes

You assert that Yasuo does not have abilities which go beyond, in terms of fairness, what other champions have in the game. I agree.

However, that does not mean Yasuo is "fine". I think it is reasonable to also assume that:

  1. Players hate being VS yasuo both in lane and out of lane.
  2. Players hate having a yasuo on their team.

do you agree?

JedenVojak7 votes

{quoted}

You assert that Yasuo does not have abilities which go beyond, in terms of fairness, what other champions have in the game. I agree.

However, that does not mean Yasuo is "fine". I think it is reasonable to also assume that:

  1. Players hate being VS yasuo both in lane and out of lane.
  2. Players hate having a yasuo on their team.

do you agree?

Yes, however, I don't think that any changes should be made to the game on the basis of people hating a particular champion, because it's also clear that a large number of people like the champion as well.

I hate marksmen with both CC and escapes, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't exist.

Aptest1 votes

well.

Let's take Tristana, as an example. She's got a lot of jumps and her ult is definitely CC. lets assume nobody likes to see Tristana in a game. Exempt for Tristana players and there is a shit load of them. There's like a tristana every game if she's not banned. And everybody hates seeing her and bans her.

Is tristana in a good spot? Should maybe change tristana?

JedenVojak5 votes

{quoted}

well.

Let's take Tristana, as an example. She's got a lot of jumps and her ult is definitely CC. lets assume nobody likes to see Tristana in a game. Exempt for Tristana players and there is a shit load of them. There's like a tristana every game if she's not banned. And everybody hates seeing her and bans her.

Is tristana in a good spot? Should maybe change tristana?

No.

You have to understand - despite throwing around hyperbole like "everyone hates X" this is not really the case; rather there is a very vocal minority that hates X and they complain often and ban often.

While not always the case, people who complain and ban like this tend to be people who rather than learning how to fight and deal with a champion, instead rely on balance patches and bans to circumvent champions they have difficulty fighting. , with these types of people even if you nerfed the crap out of whatever they hated to the point of uselessness or reworked them into a "less offensive form", these people will not be satisfied; they will simply move on to hating some other champion.

A person saying "I like X champion" is worth 20 people saying "I hate X champion".

Terrorgheist1 votes

{quoted}

sigh Well, let's address your general points.

His mobility is spammable but it's also limited and nowhere near as free as someone like Vayne or Lucian - his dashes are always in a straight line for a fixed distance, which must come through a unit which he has not traversed recently, which means you know where he's going to end for any given dash, which means you know where you can aim your shots. His dashes are also extremely position dependent both on his part and by the presence of enemies.

Catch him in the river, for instance, and his supposed super mobility counts for almost nothing.

This ability has a number of ways to play around it such as

  • Move to the side of the wall than shoot
  • Move through the wall then shoot
  • Wait for the wall to wear off

Aside from that, it has an 18 second cooldown at max rank on an ability he maxes last. You can bait his windwall and take advantage of the cooldown to shoot him if you're so inclined. A good rule of thumb is to hold onto your CC move until you can circumvent his wall either by avoiding it or timing it out.

Well, a fed champion tends to have a significant stat advantage over other non-fed people, especially since they tend to rush damage items so it can often be difficult to stop these types of champions. This is not something that's exclusive to Yasuo.

Again, this is not something exclusive to Yasuo - Jax, Wukong, Jarvan and other melee fighter champs can jump on lone ADC's and murder them. In fact, some ranged ADCs are also pretty good at this kind of thing (like Tristana, or Lucian, or Vayne).

Well, as an adc champion, it's natural that tank killing would be among Yasuo's strengths.

I don't think you're really taking into account the way that crit damage reduction actually effects Yasuo. Consider the difference between Yasuo and Jinx both building a statik shiv:

Yasuo builds the item and gains 48% effective bonus damage to his auto attacks from the crit (60% crit chance for him) on the item. Jinx Builds the item and gains 30% effective bonus damage to her auto attacks from the crit (30% for her) on the item.

While Yasuo does receive and overall larger offensive bonus from the item, keep in mind that Jinx is ranged and can fire her crits as AOE's up to 700 range - Yasuo must close the gap for his crit; the statistical bonus is to make up for his inherently riskier playstyle as a melee ADC.

Really? It actually seems to be a pretty limited ability as far as ults are concerned. I mean, you have ults that can make people invulnerable, ults that can stun an entire team, ults that affect the game globally in a number of ways from healing the team to killing people across the map. I mean, Yasuo has trouble even using his ult by himself.

So his ult gives him access to the 1 second shield he has in his kit. That's not unreasonable given that it's an engage.

Jax Lulu DrMundo Vayne Riven Olaf Talon Sivir are all examples of champions which have self-buff ults that give them bonus stats in some form or another. This is hardly something exclusive to Yasuo.

Any long range mage or marksmen can often shoot you under your turret with multiple spells and auto attacks up to and including their ultimates, but because Yasuo can do this with his ULTIMATE that's somehow a bad thing?

So an ultimate that lets you blink to an enemy, gives you a stat buff, gives you a short duration shield for some damage, on an ability which must either be triggered through a heavily telegraphed skillshot which must be set up or someone else from your team, is somehow beyond the scope of power for an ultimate? There are ults that completely shut down entire teams by themselves and win games, you know?

Well, I suppose if I simply outlined every strength a champion had and downplayed or completely ignored every weakness possessed by the champion or his abilities, I could claim that any champion was unhealthy. That would hardly make my claims facts, however.

Hi!

I liked how you explained some points to the guy, i am a bronze player and i play Normal (Blind Pick) i enjoy even if i lose. I am Good with some Champions but very bad with others.

I am the 95% of players. I don't know anything about Game Design. I would like to ask you some Question if so many posts are made about this topic means that a problem exists.

  1. Why his Ultimate is AoE ? and same Why the tornado hit everyone and doesn't stop to the single target? why the designer took this decision? in team fight he can manage to shut down entire teams (your words)

  2. beside the 2 Assassins Fizz (which is pretty annoying) and Zed (which also caused problems) he is a fighter but he also Has an untarget-able Ultimate This Allows him to Dive under turret and Dash away. there is no such champion that can do this (zed can also Fizz but they are Assassins and beside this they have no passive or active shields).

  3. his shield blocks all projectiles > why last so long ? and also why the designer took this decision and he did not make the shield on Single shot or maybe with HP maybe with lower cooldown but based on Right Moment which emphasizes the skills... Lee Sin has a shield, Yasuo too but he also has a Life Saver (cait ult, Ez Ult, Jinx ecc. ecc. )

  4. why Yasuo has Crit Passive and also he has a Shield Passive why this double passive ? and extra Armour pen with Ulti ?

  5. why the dash is not like a Lucian's gap close? lee has a long range gap close but longer is the range harder is to aim Yasuo on target. it's a Akali Ultimate Style.

so what change if the windshield is different or the dash is just one or he has no Passive Shield ?.

Not everyone is good with Aurelion Sol... but who is good is too Good so he got a nerf (accettable) lower gank potential nerfing Passive and W.

So the point is Not everyone is good with Yasuo but who is Good is too Good with it (but keep doing what he does)... and it implies that who is bad in late game with his 100% crit chance is good too in late game (untargetable Ulti is the main reason)... it's not nice when he is underfed and he crits 2 consecutives hits for 900 damages.

the final point is that he has a lot of qualities and few defects we are complaining because we are bronze... but we are the bones and flesh of this game we watch the pros we buy the skins we try the champs we read the guide most of the games are played by bronze players.

JedenVojak3 votes

{quoted}

  1. Why his Ultimate is AoE ? and same Why the tornado hit everyone and doesn't stop to the single target? why the designer took this decision? in team fight he can manage to shut down entire teams (your words)

Well in the first place, when I talked about shutting down entire teams I was specifically referring to not Yasuo. Sejuani, Galeo, and Malphite for instance have AOE CC ults that can make an entire team do nothing.

As for Yasuo's skillshot passing through targets? Well in the first place, it's a very highly telegraphed move that has to be set up by using 2 normal Q's - if you get hit by it, it's your fault. He get's a big whoosh aura in general, after all.

For the more general question of why he has a penetrating skillshot, while I don't specifically know why (I'm not privy to the designers thoughts on the matter) you will see this type of thing much more often on melee champions in general; this is because they tend to have to play inside of a minion wave to deal with ranged opponents and their attacks, so their skillshots are more often allowed to pass through targets to even the odds.

  1. beside the 2 Assassins Fizz (which is pretty annoying) and Zed (which also caused problems) he is a fighter but he also Has an untarget-able Ultimate This Allows him to Dive under turret and Dash away. there is no such champion that can do this (zed can also Fizz but they are Assassins and beside this they have no passive or active shields).

Yasuo is actually not untargetable while performing his ultimate, though it's often the case that people who would target him are caught up in it.

Also, Yasuo is specifically designed to deal with ranged opponents - is it fair that a ranged champ can simply continue to shoot at him from under a turret without him being able to do anything about it? People will complain about something on Yasuo because "not a lot people can do it" but you have to look at the champions he has to go up against. If he had to face some big waveclear mid under their turret, he would have no way to face them whatsoever, he would just lose.

  1. his shield blocks all projectiles > why last so long ?

It doesn't last so long. Why are you throwing everything out at once when you know he has a shield? Maybe hold your CC move until after he uses it.

and also why the designer took this decision and he did not make the shield on Single shot or maybe with HP maybe with lower cooldown but based on Right Moment which emphasizes the skills...

The shield needs to last long enough for an engage or disengage - as a champion who ultimately has to close the gap to do most of his damage. Should he just automatically die to ranged opponents?

  1. why Yasuo has Crit Passive and also he has a Shield Passive why this double passive ? and extra Armour pen with Ulti ?

Because Yasuo is a melee adc. This means that, like many other adcs he's provided with defenses in his kit and steroids to make up for his glass cannon nature.

  1. why the dash is not like a Lucian's gap close? lee has a long range gap close but longer is the range harder is to aim Yasuo on target. it's a Akali Ultimate Style.

Yasuo's dash is specifically an engage - and requires the presence of units to work, while travelling a fixed distance, and in a straight line directly towards the unit. In comparison, Akali's dash and Lee Sin's mobility are both more powerful than Yasuo's - they have much more overall freedom in how they execute their gap closers, can make them work with only enemies present and are much longer ranged overall.

so what change if the windshield is different or the dash is just one or he has no Passive Shield ?.

He needs that shield to engage - if he's throwing out the wind wall or dashing, it's very often the case that he's running directly INTO the enemies, so that's when he requires it the most. If those abilities took down his shield, his shield would effectively not even exist, because he wouldn't have any time that he actually needed it up.

Not everyone is good with Aurelion Sol... but who is good is too Good so he got a nerf (accettable) lower gank potential nerfing Passive and W.

I don't know anything about Aurelion Sol, he was added after I uninstalled the game.

So the point is Not everyone is good with Yasuo but who is Good is too Good with it (but keep doing what he does)...

How good is too good? This is a very arbitrary thing to say. I could easily say that you are too good with... uh... Ashe and therefore that Ashe needs all the nerfs.

and it implies that who is bad in late game with his 100% crit chance is good too in late game (untargetable Ulti is the main reason)... it's not nice when he is underfed and he crits 2 consecutives hits for 900 damages.

Do you mean two hits adding up to 900 damage, or 2 hits each doing 900 damage? If it's the former, that's possible but not likely as he probably has to have around 200-250 AD and an infinity edge, if its the latter, that's not happening with an unfed Yasuo basically ever - he would need to have 400 AD to do that much damage on a crit on a person with 0 armor, which not exist in league.

the final point is that he has a lot of qualities and few defects we are complaining because we are bronze... but we are the bones and flesh of this game we watch the pros we buy the skins we try the champs we read the guide most of the games are played by bronze players.

I'm gonna be blunt here: first the game really can't be balanced around bronzes because you are bad at the game - nothing complicated would be allowed to exist if it were that way, since bronze players couldn't handle it. More importantly, League's largest revenue generator is the advertising revenue accrued from the LCS, not low level players buying skins, so your voice(s) don't really count as much as you think.

The Yetii Rider9 votes

The only solution to an unhealthy kit is to rework it.

But we have to rework Ryze for a fifth time. Kappa.

All Day Tay Tay9 votes

basically, i know yasuo is a bad champ, and more often than not loses games (by a small amount), i just dont wanna deal with him. hes annoying. basically a new teemo. hes not a good champ, hes easy to kill, but he will make you extremely frustrated

Project omen8 votes

Nice circlejerk post you got there.

Melledoneus4 votes

Thanks, but I prefer the term "constructive feedback."

Project omen9 votes

Hardly constructive. People will imagine all the absurd nerfs for Yasuo and decide his balance state simply because of how frustrating he is, which is highly subjective and, thus, will never be a reason to be addressed by Riot, when he is in a pretty good spot, especially after the nerf to his tank build.

Sanctimonious7 votes

And give him large compensational buffs for each of these nerfs.

Melledoneus17 votes

God no.

ShaolinToilet8 votes

It's well thought out but it's just so biased that no rioter is going to differentiate this from the other yasuo crying threads.

hunterspec6 votes

so nerf him into the ground what you are saying?

Melledoneus20 votes

If you took the time to read the post, I answer that very question. Let me know if anything specific was unclear.

hunterspec3 votes

{quoted}

If you took the time to read the post, I answer that very question. Let me know if anything specific was unclear.

obviously I'm not going to read an essay, I just glanced over the parts where you were crying about his passive and ult, and the word "remove" everywhere.

dakota saturn25 votes

{quoted}

obviously I'm not going to read an essay, I just glanced over the parts where you were crying about his passive and ult, and the word "remove" everywhere.

That's disrespectful

hunterspec1 votes

[{quoted}](name=dakota saturn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xon7nxlu,comment-id=0003000000000001,timestamp=2016-11-24T00:49:38.440+0000)

That's disrespectful

and the 2000 posts a day about yasuo aren't?

dakota saturn31 votes

{quoted}

and the 2000 posts a day about yasuo aren't?

Expressing an opinion isn't disrespectful.

Coming into a topic, downvoting the OP, then stating you didn't even bother to read what they wrote is extremely fucking disrespectful.

Are you trolling?

hunterspec1 votes

[{quoted}](name=dakota saturn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xon7nxlu,comment-id=000300000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-11-24T01:10:07.274+0000)

Expressing an opinion isn't disrespectful.

Coming into a topic, downvoting the OP, then stating you didn't even bother to read what they wrote is extremely fucking disrespectful.

Are you trolling?

no, just tired of seeing the same crap every day. most topics get downvoted into the ground for saying something about a champ.

are you trolling?

dakota saturn22 votes

{quoted}

no, just tired of seeing the same crap every day. most topics get downvoted into the ground for saying something about a champ.

are you trolling?

If you're tired of seeing it, then ignore the topic and move on. You don't have to go into every single topic just to insult the OP.

Anyway, it's clear you're either trolling or incapable of understanding basic human interactions. Have fun with whatever it is you do when you're not insulting people and being generally unhelpful.

Bye!

JustMonika136 votes

Yasuo's kit is unhealthy. This is a basic fact. Having nearly unparalleled mobility in fights and during laning phase while also being able to zone enemies with a wall that can simultaneously be used defensively and aggressively is frustrating to play against. You basically need to find a way to CC a fed Yasuo and gang up on him to defeat him without him using you as a stepping stone to gut your carries. Yasuo does every assassin's job better where if he jumps an ADC alone, even if they are uber fed, he can 1v1 them and win no problem because of his wind wall.

Again, I readily admit that he's extremely annoying. However, how can Yasuo use his wall aggressively, may I ask? Besides the stealth Q animation cancel (which doesn't matter as either you can still hear when 3rd Q is up and/or see the tornado coming), I can't come up with any. CC goes for basically any Skirmisher, Assassin, and even Divers. Don't tell me you can't pick anyone with non-projectile CC in order to keep him under control in teamfights, or hell, wait for him to blow Windwall?

He can use it mid-dash. He can cancel animations. He can essentially out-run your abilities and combos because he can move so damn fast in everything he does. And even tanks are made quick work of him because no matter how much armor or HP you build, Yasuo will shred you.

Windwalling mid-dash stops the dash (which is a fixed distance). Tons of champions can cancel animation. Most famously there's Riven. Outrunning your abilities? What are you doing fighting him with a wave incoming/ already present? Building HP is the best choice for tanks going against Yasuo as his ult bonus is only against bonus armor (runes, items, masteries), but alas the meta demands resistances being built.

I'm sorry, but 100% crit chance has to come with a downside besides a SLIGHT damage reduction to crits. Nobody should hit late game DPS in two items.

It already does come with a downside of damage reduction to crits.

Is this your average Yasuo QQ thread? Until this point, yes. So, let me make this a productive discussion. What can we do to make this champion less frustrating to play against? Here are some suggestions:

Lezgo.

-Find a more interactive way for Yasuo to utilize critical strike chance. Simply giving him a free 2x multiplier on crit is basically encouraging stat-sticking design and the only way you can beat this is to kill him before he kills you by having more damage than him.

So make it into another Tryndamere passive? Or Ashe passive or Jhin passive, two of the strongest ADCs by the end of the season? Especially when Riot (supposedly) stated that they wanted to shy away from starting the game with any sort of crit chance. I've said this all throughout the "WAH 2x CRIT SO OP" statements... the mere fact that Yasuo is a melee champion that thrives in extended battles means he has to have some damage steriod, but still have defensive capabilities. (Stonewall008 made a great video on melee carries as a whole and why they usually fail by either being too strong/annoying/whatever or being too weak/useless/whatever, and any attempts at fixing end in failure. Of course, he touched on Yasuo (while arguing that he considers him more of a Spellblade))

So let's talk about Way of the Wanderer as a whole... Yasuo gets double crit chance at the cost of crit damage (-10% on AAs, -25% on Qs). He also has a shield that he builds by "wandering" that adsorbs a certain amount of damage and is not controllable. His payment for the shield? Being one of only two melees in the game without MR growth. Yasuo needs to build some defensive things just to survive. His MR doesn't grow, and his base Armor and Health are nothing special. He cannot afford wasting slot spaces on more than three offensive items (third offensive item usually being lifesteal or defensive hybrid item), especially against enemies that know what they are doing and/or if he isn't snowballing. His damage steroid is double crit (and ult armor shred). All other skirmishers have their own respective steroids, even Ekko, the most assassin-like skirmisher.

So giving him an "interactive" crit passive will need to most likely provide him with some sort of free crit at certain windows, and certainly need number buffs thanks to having to build more offensive items if double crit is removed and if in a rework it is decided that his build is still to be centered around crit.

-Make Yasuo's E animation slower or give it a higher cooldown to make his mobility meaningful. There are no other champions in the game that can throw away dashes like that and not suffer for it at all. (Yes, even Riven pays for usig her Q for running, such as losing her main damage combo)

Animation is already pretty slow. Move Speed makes the animation and cast time faster. I can concede to the removal of Move Speed = faster animation. Also Yasuo does suffer from throwing his dashes, he loses another possible dash for a fixed amount of time, especially in the laning phase after pushing lane (which again, is something his does simply by being Yasuo).

Also... have I mentioned that his dash is the only dash in the game that is completely stopped by all hard movement CC? Whereas all other dashes are only canceled by Airborne displacements, and with other hard CC (stuns, snares, involuntary movement), the coding is so that it waits until the dashes stops in order to place the CC into effect. And that he is perfectly vulnerable mid-dash. Git gud at landing skillshots.

-Turn windwall into something more strategic. Simply dropping a wall that stops ALL enemy projectiles basically invalidates almost every champion in the game from using a potent ability. It feels especially horrible when that champion relies on skillshots, like Ahri or Jhin. Watching all your efforts melt into a wall of wind sucks. I propose that wind wall should maybe be a quick-cast ability that briefly lets Yasuo slice an arc in front of him that moves forward from where he casted it, stopping smaller projectiles (Ezreal Q, Blitzcrank hook) and slowing bigger projectiles (Nami ult, Braum ultimate) as it moves through them. The cooldown will be long, but maybe there could be a charge system to make it more meaningful to use it. Right now it's such a feast-or-famine ability to use.

It already pretty much is? With a higher-than-most-normal-abilities cooldown (rightfully so), most champions will have their normal projectiles up before he has his windwall, stopping him from using it again in a certain window of time, where he will have to rely on his mobility to keep him safe in that time window. Don't throw your skillshots collectively as a team when the wall is out. Don't try to press on being offensive when he blocks something non-ult and take the wasted wall as a victory. Don't use your ults when it is certain he has WW up, unless it is to bait it out in prep for a more dangerous ult projectile.

"Slowing" ult projectiles certainly is an interesting idea, but it sounds like a nightmare to code and implement, even with current technology. Apparently, they wanted to try something with slicing an arc Kass style to intercept projectiles in said arc, but at the time of Yasuo's inception, the technology wasn't available. This idea is cool and I would love to see it; it's been 3 years, surely they could pull it off... hopefully.

OH! Topic of "OMG NORMAL ABILITY SCREWS ULT!!!1!"...MasterYi Fizz Vladimir Fiora Maokai Sivir Nocturne Elise Braum (on first projectile) Camille soon to invalidate movement ults for a short time. Any sort of hard ability CC + Silence canceling channel ults like Jhin and Kat. Learning to play around anything that can screw up an ultimate is vital to the game. Yasuo isn't the only champion that can screw up ults; plenty of other champions and even items can say fuck you to ultimate abilities and often times can do so towards more ults with a shorter Cooldown on the ability that does so

-Remove the ability to cancel important animations such as Q, E, windwall, or ult. Yasuo is a skirmisher, not an assassin. He should be dealing damage over time, not doing quick combos with little to no animation time.

I don't know why animation canceling still exists in the game. Apparently Riven mains fought tooth and nail for it. Animation canceling in general needs to go.

-Remove the safety that his ult gives him. Yasuo's ultimate has so much power it's ridiculous. First, it refreshes his passive shield. So his ultimate essentially minimizes the risk of ulting in the middle of a fight with multiple enemies. Second, it grants him 50% bonus armor penetration for quite a while. More stats, yay interaction. Third, it positions him as far away from a turret as possible when he ults an opponent under a turret, sometimes not even requiring Yasuo's mode to be IN THE ANIMATION SPACE. Holy crap, this is the stupidest one. You're hardly safe under your turret while he can dive you from right outside the radius. Some of that power needs to go.

I'm okay with the removal of "ult placing Yasuo out of tower if possible". It doesn't always happen like some people like to insist, but it does so often enough. It's too much either way.

Flow shield refresh stalls death, perfectly normal stuff again... he's to be in a middle of a fight. How good will a Yasuo be if he dies too fast without doing much? Ult 50% bonus armor pen is his only late-game tank kill power. No, having 100% crit doesn't improve your chance of shredding a late game tank. If it did, ADC's wouldn't have to buy Last Whisper in order to do so (inb4, QQing about the fact that Yasuo doesn't need to build it. //points towards "needs item slots for higher defensive power" talk above). Skirmishers are to kill anything in their way, including tanks. 50% bonus armor pen for critical strikes for 15 seconds is Yasuo's tool for doing so.

I'm open to any ideas. And to all the Yasuo mains out there, this means that your champion could get shiny new animations, so don't complain!

I point to the people QQing about Katarina and LB being "trash".

Sraeg20136 votes

You basically need to find a way to CC a fed Yasuo and gang up on him to defeat him without him using you as a stepping stone to gut your carries.

If he tries to dash onto your carries through the front line and succeeds, that means you either don't have a frontline or your team is terri-fucking-bad.

Yasuo does every assassin's job better where if he jumps an ADC alone

A poor argument after the Assassin Update where every, but one, of the champions changed lost the ability to assassinate carries.

Turn windwall into something more strategic. Simply dropping a wall that stops ALL enemy projectiles basically invalidates almost every champion in the game from using a potent ability. It feels especially horrible when that champion relies on skillshots, like Ahri or Jhin.

There's a lot of abilities which negate other abilities making champion substantially weaker or outright useless. It's the same kind of strategy as ADCs not stepping in front of the tanks. Except that unlike an ADC stepping in front of the tank, an ADC doesn't outright die against the Windwall.

the only way you can beat this is to kill him before he kills you by having more damage than him.

Isn't that like... every single case of damage dealing champions? Dish out as much damage as possible to kill the other guy?

Remove the ability to cancel important animations such as Q, E, windwall, or ult.

That's a problem much bigger than Yasuo.

this means that your champion could get shiny new animations, so don't complain!

http://i.imgur.com/9sxHPBx.jpg?b

CrimsonCobra35 votes

The only thing I'd like to point out is that his E does have an inherent sacrifice: it replaces a potentially damaging ability. (Yes it does damage, but negligible damage.)

Also: I think Riven is just as bad in terms of balance. (Well, almost as bad. I suppose she does need items more than Yasuo.)

Battlecast Sona1 votes

E actually does pretty decent damage early on, it was getting maxed for increased mobility/against targets that stacked early armor for a while... since it decreases both the static CD and the on-target CD, as well as increasing the base damage (with bonus damage for hitting multiple targets for... reasons).

It's basically an example of how Yasuo is overloaded. His E is a neat ability and it has all this weird damage bullshit thrown into it seemingly at random that just adds extraneous power to his kit.

CrimsonCobra31 votes

Personally, I think it's other features that actually make him overloaded, but it's because he has all of this that it is the case. If he didn't have E's mobility he'd be underloaded actually. And very weak. On the other hand, if his E no longer dealt damage, his CSing would suffer slightly. Very slightly. (What I'm saying is that he benefits a lot from one aspect of his E, and very little from the other. I actually have an Idea for Yasuo that I'm going to go write up now that includes changing the damage on his E, but that's an entirely separate story.)

NovaKaiser5 votes

As a Yasuo main I have to disagree with some of your assessments here.

"no matter how much armor or HP you build, Yasuo will shred you."

Rammus Shen item 3143 item 3075 item 3047 RIP Drunken Samurai man

"Yasuo does every assassin's job better"

Zed Ekko Kassadin Evelynn Leblanc These are all Assassins that can easily 1v1 or dive a carry and kill them and dip out afterwords. When Yasuo dives in to kill a carry, often times it leaves him in a vulnerable spot that he can be CC chained and promptly murdered in.

I love how everyone whines about the windwall all the time. No one whines this much about Fiora and her riposte. That riposte blocks all incoming attacks, even melee attacks.

If you want to beat Yasuo in the top lane you should play Renekton. Everytime I see one of these jerks bring summoner 14 to top lane I want to rage like there is no tomorrow.

Play stuff like Renekton Garen Pantheon or Irelia These champions all have zero projectiles to block (Minus Pantheon and Irelia but Pantheon has a shield that can block autos so he does ok against Yasuo and Irelia's ult is only a minor part of her kit. Without the ult she can still easily burst Yasuo) and can use point and click CC on Yasuo and just murder him after that. (Garen can use his silence to prevent Yasuo from dashing through the minion wave. If Yasuo becomes immobilized then he is as good as dead.)

For the mid lane, play stuff like Cassiopeia, Annie, Fizz, Malzahar These champions can all restrict mobility, which means that our drunken friend Yasuo is a dead man. No matter how good you are with your windwall, you can't block an Annie tibbers ult. (such skill much wow) Fizz shark is kinda glitchy on the windwall. The windwall does not delete the fish, but it instead stops it right there. More often than not a Yasuo will inadvertently walk over the fish anyways even though it was blocked by the windwall.

If you want to piss off Yasuo as a support, you can play the shield game with him. Pick stuff like Karma and just AOE shield your team so that Yasuo gets cucked. Or play Lulu and ult and shield your ADC when Yasuo dives. Nothing makes me more pissed off to know that some hapless ADC lived just barely because some obnoxious support main cucked me with their annoying BS.

Other champs that work well against Yasuo: Maokai Galio Kennen Nautilus Udyr Warwick These Champions have obnoxious point and click/AOE CC (remember an immobile Yasuo is a dead swordsman)

Other champs that do well against Yasuo: Tryndamere Teemo Illaoi Jax Tryndamere MonkeyKing Darius -> These champions can all go toe to toe with Yasuo and come out on top. They just don't have any point and click CC.

Don't pick Riven into Yasuo unless you are good at Riven. In my honest opinion, I think Yasuo has a chance to outplay Riven. There is no outplaying obnoxious point and click CC and high burst. (Looking at you Renekton and Irelia)

I think it is fair to say that the Tank Yasuo stuff should be nerfed (that build is complete BS) but I am so sick of all these QQ Yasuo too OP/100% crit on 2 items/Everytime there is a Yasuo on my team he feeds, but on the enemy team he is a god.

I just want to play my favorite swordsman and not have people assume that I am some disgusting piece of garbage or that I am toxic right off the bat.

I don't say to every Syndra player I see "Wow, you must be some freelo abusing c*nt" despite my belief that Syndra is too op.

It would be nice if we could all just play the champions we like without being b*tched out by a bunch of whiny nerds over the internet.

I guess that is what /muteall is for huh?

AninLegions7774 votes

So many champs in the game are unhealthy. Yasuo top right now is weak. Pick Singed into him and proxy. Easiest lane of your life. Yasuo mid is also flipping weak. Mages are almost as strong as DFG era. If you don't like him, ban him but don't expect Riot to change him for being "unhealthy" cos then we'd have to change a lot of champs.

JustMonika132 votes

{quoted}

So many champs in the game are unhealthy. Yasuo top right now is weak. Pick Singed into him and proxy. Easiest lane of your life. Yasuo mid is also flipping weak. Mages are almost as strong as DFG era. If you don't like him, ban him but don't expect Yasuo to change him for being "unhealthy" cos then we'd have to change a lot of champs.

Can confirm Singed proxy is fucking Hell as Yasuo. I'd rather deal with Pantheon or Darius than a Singed that can properly proxy.

l Helios l4 votes

Meanwhile Khazix Rengar Vayne

Sorry man, got bigger fish to fry than Yasuo

Melledoneus3 votes

Well, two of those are getting big nerfs. Kha'Zix should be getting nerfed, not sure why he isn't.

Also, I'm not crying fowl over Yasuo being OP, I'm simply explaining that he feels absolutely terrible to play against if he is even half-decent.

l Helios l3 votes

No salt at all; I get your point. A very good Yasuo is frustrating, but I feel that's a rule for any champion. Example, if you've ever played against a really good Orianna, it's probably really annoying because she had a solid harass pattern and great team fighting potential. With experience comes better understanding and with that, better exploitation of annoying strategies that are just plain effective.

Melledoneus2 votes

The example you've brought up is a good one. Orianna is a control mage, who focuses on using her ball to zone and create areas of power. However, she has clear weaknesses like mobility outrunning her ball's speed, ranged harass, and extreme burst. Sure, she has tools to protect herself, but they are slow and take a while to set up, anyone with fast burst makes short work of her.

I don't see any clear weaknesses in Yasuo besides making it a 2v1 or just happening to be one of those champions that can beat him in a 1v1. Either that or him outplaying himself.

l Helios l2 votes

I mean the later case, him outplaying himself, happens a lot with any champion requiring a brain. I don't mind that being a valid situation in the game.

Even taking into account those who can 1v1 a Yasuo, let's go down the list. Aatrox Ekko Fiora Fizz Darius LeeSin Khazix Kled Renekton Zed Riven Ryze Trundle Udyr XinZhao This is not to say Yasuo can't win these fights, but these could be quite trying for the Yasuo player.

These were just ones that immediately jump to mind glancing over the list, most of these can do it early - mid game, but late game is obviously a different story. But here's my question: why would you ever try to 1v1 a Yasuo late game? Isn't it analogous to 1v1ing a Nasus late game? I doubt anyone would question 1v1ing a Nasus late game, they would just call you stupid. Why can't the same rule apply for Yasuo?

Even if we discuss weaknesses of Yasuo, let's see: No mobility if he isn't in a minion wave or a group of champions/monsters A long cool down on W, much longer than any skill shot or projectile that isn't an ultimate 0 sustain outside of items Fairly low base armor and scaling compared to most top laners A rather long lockout on same targets with E unless he's maxing it Ult is now reliant on crit, making bruiser builds inefficient, not even to mention the fervor nerfs Lack of bruiser builds ensures squishyness, which means if he tries initiate off his ult, he can easily be blow up

I just don't fully get the Yasuo hate. I get it's frustrating, but why do we think everything we deal with in League should be a joy ride? That's not the case in any game, every game in the world has frustrating things. But you don't get the opportunity to avoid it. You learn, adapt, and kick that annoyance's ass. I think if everyone ran through Dark Souls about 6 times they'd learn something about annoying and frustrating.

Sex on Rìft2 votes

Yasuo's kit is unhealthy, bch please there are other champions as well whose kit is unhealthy. Only reason I ban Yasuo is because I play jungle and I can't bare my teammates just feeding him and me having to deal with him later.

JedenVojak3 votes

Play Rammus jungle and you can fight all the yasuo's you want.

Rammus C'mon Yasuo. Come kill yourself.

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