Why are all of Fiddlestick ratios so bad?

KoKoboto··3 votes·1,209 views

He has two basic abilities that do damage and are entirely conditional and have appropriate counterplay. Drain (walk away or CC him) Dark Wind (walk away from nearby ally units)

Yet both of them do trash damage.

Let's compared to other champions that only have 2 damaging abilities.

Zyra Q and E have high base damage because she only has these two abilities and it gives her some power even if she doesn't have plants up. Kayn has high damage ratios on Q and W because his E is an entirely utility based spell, it helps balance out his kit. Zed is similar in that his Q and E have nice base damage and good scaling while his W is utility and helps multiply his damage Ekko W has it's passive damage on it and he also gets damage from his passive which makes up for low ratio and damage on E.

Why do all of Fiddle's abilities have 45% AP scaling. Drain is an extremely conditional ability and often you will only get 1s off opponents the ability could threaten or get screwed over because the enemy will just kill you while you try to drain them off. In 1v1 situations the ability is useless unless you are really far ahead. In fights where you have someone to distract the ability doesn't do any damage. You're too open to CC and because you're squishy you get screwed over instantly.

His E does absolutely nothing if their is only one enemy. Also the best damage you could get off the ability is 435 (+135%AP) however most people will do good to avoid this. And if their are numerous enemies you won't be getting the damage anyways unless you are able to drain your target which is pretty unsafe ability.

R is pretty bad. If you don't get ahead early the ability doesn't deal enough damage to be threatening on your own. Also most champions with mobility (a lot of champions played now) will be able to get away from you. If you fear and CC your main target you're gonna get crowd controlled by other people. If you CC others to avoid getting CC'd yourself you won't deal enough damage to a target to make yourself threatening.

Fiddlestick has a pretty weak early game and if he manages to survive he only does mediocre at best. You have to try and get ahead with him early otherwise you won't do much.

Proposed buffs is to add another bounce to Dark Wind whenever he levels his ultimate. Also buff the ratio on the ability so that you're not entirely screwed over if you only have one opponent in front of you.

Allow Drain to heal off a separate AP ratio so that the ability isn't absolutely useless against tanks. Currently ADCs and other champions with healing will be able to out heal and out damage Fiddlestick EASILY if they buy some MR or have life steal items. He shouldn't be able to draintank an enemy ADC or off tanks too easily but he shouldn't die instantly like he does now if he tries.

Fiddlestick early technically has 2.5s worth of CC where the enemy can't retaliate fully but that doesn't mean anything.

For example if you fear them are you just going to walk away? You gotta position close for drain tether (if going closer is a good choice) and within that time you're wasting the CC duration. You get maybe 0.5s worth of no counterplay drain and than the enemy can fiddle up your sticks. So you fear (or silence depending on what you used) them but than your drain is on CD. Having this weakness should allow Fiddlestick to be buffed up in ratios without him becoming overbearing.

{quoted}

So when you say fear and silenced to death is he the one killing you or someone else?

I wonder is this with his ult on? Because if so he can kill you once every 3 mins.

Not trying to be mean but if you level fear you have no damage. but if you level damage you have no fear. Now if its late game a lot of champs will kill you in 2 or 3 hits.

18 Comments

Darkdemon6534 votes

Fiddle's W and R ratios are both up to 225%. His E can hit a target with a ratio of 135%.

Jmman2 votes

that is if they stand and don't move for 5 secs.

Plus dark wind will only bounce 3 times Max on a target. That is .45 + .45 +.45 for 1.35 to the target. (the other bounces get the .45 but not on the target you are on.

plus fiddle HAS to build the NON high ap items to stay relevant. He needs the hp and resist to last close up for more than 2 secs. So its you need the high ap items to do damage but need the low ap items to survive. Fiddle is in a very weird spot atm.

KoKoboto1 votes

For example if you fear them are you just going to walk away? You gotta position close for drain tether (if going closer is a good choice) and within that time you're wasting the CC duration. You get maybe 0.5s worth of no counterplay drain and than the enemy can fiddle up your sticks. So you fear (or silence depending on what you used) them but than your drain is on CD. Having this weakness should allow Fiddlestick to be buffed up in ratios without him becoming overbearing.

He will only get off 1s drain or 1 bounce of dark wind most of the time. And the abilities have good counter play which is often used.

King of Demons3 votes

His ratios aren't low and mobility doesn't mean you won't get feared and silenced into death

Jmman2 votes

So when you say fear and silenced to death is he the one killing you or someone else?

I wonder is this with his ult on? Because if so he can kill you once every 3 mins.

Not trying to be mean but if you level fear you have no damage. but if you level damage you have no fear. Now if its late game a lot of champs will kill you in 2 or 3 hits.

KoKoboto1 votes

For example if you fear them are you just going to walk away? You gotta position close for drain tether (if going closer is a good choice) and within that time you're wasting the CC duration. You get maybe 0.5s worth of no counterplay drain and than the enemy can fiddle up your sticks. So you fear (or silence depending on what you used) them but than your drain is on CD. Having this weakness should allow Fiddlestick to be buffed up in ratios without him becoming overbearing.

Jmman2 votes

The issue is they did the ratios like Dots. The problem is they might or might not to the max damage. And in his case they would most likely not do max damage.

Fiddles issues are 2 fold. Most newer champs have some form of mobility and / or CC. This mean this easy for reduce or escape his damage. Ahri Galio LeeSin Orianna Syndra Thresh this champs you will most likely see in almost every game. This can stop fiddles ult as soon as he lands. Now if he doesn't have item 3157 he will get blown up almost instantly. But we also have to have flash to put yourselves in the middle of the team and immune. Now you are needs ult, immune, flash to just to the full effect for non-mobile champs in a team fight. Solo ulting someone isn't soo bad depending on who they are. But if your behind don't try because your damage is weak. Really its just for people pushing the turret if behind.

Next are the items. since everything is a DOT that means item 3151 and DFG are reduced damage. item 3157 item 3116 are core for him. These have gotten nerfed bad. Nothing with Mana or mana regen is really good for fiddle. But his spells are soo expensive. But if you goitem 3165 this leaves him too weak to fight. Because he has to be close for damage. Now laning isn't that bad because you can stay back. But middle to late game you fill like a support because you are a glass cannon that has to be close and keep the enemy close for 5 secs to kill them.

So you have a champ that has had all his core items nerfed. Fear was changed to make people run from him thus self-countering his offensive output. The changed the crow bounces so that it killed his farming and random burst damage. And all the Meta champs are now mobile and/or a lot of CC. But I feel they should bump the ratios up some.

Now I'm not saying some of the changes were or were not needed but they did nothing to help fiddle QoL after the changes. And to be honest they made hard changes on a champ that had a 1% play rate seem "weird" to me.

Fixing it..... He needs more non-ult damage. Fear might need to be a skill shot or after being hit with Multiple spells, but it thinks its ok because it doesn't have damage or anything else with it. But removing some of the power from the ult to his other spells will help him a lot.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

I think that he could use a little higher ratio of damage and a little lower ratio of healing on his w, and maybe a bigger silence on e, but thats all. he does plenty damage.

Jmman1 votes

I would agree he can do plenty damage. However, it requires more mana than most AP champs. You have to have an extra minion / champ near by to bounce the crows from. Then make sure they say in drain range and not cc you.

I feel like he has too many variables or a check list he has to go down to make sure it can do damage without an ult. PLus his auto and minion wave farm is crap. His autos and speed of the missile needs help. I think its one of the slowest in the game. Right up there with his run speed.

But I think without his ult he is a support running around damage wise. I would move power from his ult to his kit.

KoKoboto1 votes

No he doesn't.

Arakadia1 votes

Cause he has insanely high base damages.

KoKoboto1 votes

W max rank 180 E max rank 145 R max rank 325

In comparison Malzahar who also has a lot of CC but lacks counterplay

Q max rank 210 W max rank 60 E max rank 220 R max rank 325

Fiddle stick base damages are average and are only above average when he is able to use them under good conditions which is not often for reasons I have mentioned before.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

W max rank 180 E max rank 145 R max rank 325

In comparison Malzahar who also has a lot of CC but lacks counterplay

Q max rank 210 W max rank 60 E max rank 220 R max rank 325

Fiddle stick base damages are average and are only above average when he is able to use them under good conditions which is not often for reasons I have mentioned before.

... Malzahar is full of counterplay. His E has short range so stay out of it. His Q is a skill shot. His W is cleared by any AoE ability or a single basic and his ult is slightly more than his attack range. By comparison fiddlesticks is all point and click sans his massive AoE ult which moves with him AND has hard CC.

@thread Fiddlesticks is meant to be an objective focused jungler. His ratios are fine, but his clearing tool - his E - needs to be buffed so that its an ACTUAL clearing tool. It shouldnt take 2~3 Es to clear a wave.

Jmman3 votes

Then you realize fiddles ranges are shorting than malz

q malz 900 vs 525 w malz 450 vs 575 (but the bugs are moved ALOT farther than 450) e malz 650 vs 750 r malz 700 vs 800

let look at it another way.

malz silence/damage is 900 fiddles is 750 Malz dot is 650 fiddle dot drain is 575 Malz ult cc is 700 range vs fiddle fear of 525 Malz pets aoe 450 but leash after 2000 vs 800 fiddle ult AoE (this one is harder because kind of different uses for the abilities so ill just give this one to Malz

so Malz has longer range on everything. Malz also has a hard CC for 2.5sec and for about 50% of your hp. By comparison all spell are point and click on the screen. Better question is why does animations take priority over fear?(other cc doesn't) If you only played fiddle you would realize you are hyper poling everything about a low played champ. I just don't understand some of the posters on here. I could say hey I had a burger for lunch here is my receipt and everyone will tell me I'm wrong.

then he looks and I'm profile and see I'm a fiddle main since season one. I think my input on the champ FAR out weighs yours. (57% win rate as support this season)

Edit this isn't looking at the passive's either.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted} ** If you only played fiddle you would realize you are hyper poling everything about a low played champ**

I couldnt agree more. I hate it when people claim "waaaaah OP" about someone who ISNT even meta and cant even get their facts right because of a blind hatred.

I think my input on the champ FAR out weighs yours. (57% win rate as support this season)

And this is why no one should take you very seriously. You have a bias. A HUGE bias. And i say that as someone who used to love fiddlesticks before the E nerf years ago.

Then you realize fiddles ranges are shorting than malz I didnt talk about ranges. Your argument was "MALZ IS POINT AND CLICK" when its not true. He has two point and click abilities; One of which is self CC (HIS ULTIMATE) and the other is a zoning tool because it doesnt do much on its own. Meanwhile fiddlesticks has three point and click abilities - one of which is hard CC and the other is a silence. At least malzahar has his suppression on his ultimate and his silence on a skillshot.

Jmman1 votes

And this is why no one should take you very seriously. You have a bias. A HUGE bias. And i say that as someone who used to love fiddlesticks before the E nerf years ago. ????

dude I was a mid and jungle with fiddle. I had to go support but I would win mid but not be able to carry late game like the "burst" Ahri Orianna mages. Mid he is so easily ganked like in the jungle. Who would know more of why someone ISN"T playing him jungle/mid than someone that did then had to make the move. His late game is just so ult dependent. Your a fear bot until you can ult. Sure you might try and throw some crows but don't get caught or you instant dead. Event if you are 12/0/15 you can be stopped by CC other mages have to damage in there kits without using ult to kill someone. Fiddle will only kill someone if they are dumb without his ult.

And honestly if you look at my games played and mastery and ratio my win rate would be WAY higher with just about any other champ. Because you stop fiddles ult and he is just a support running around. Heck I think I have a 63% win rate with blitz.

Arakadia1 votes

His W and R can reach thousand/thousands of damage in mid to late alone. I wouldn't call that low.

Jmman1 votes

you mean like 2,000 to 3,000 on a full build against a none MR building champ? like 1k against a tank? So I blow my load and get an ok ult and do 1000 to tank and 1750 to bruiser and 2000 to the adc with 2300 hp and die. Now I can't do that again for 2 mins. I have no damage. Take ANY OTHER MAGE and see what they can do. Then see how long till they can do damage again. You only take damage from drain/crows if you choose too.

Ahri with 400 ap will do 565, 1080, 400, 2430.... then know if a couple of secs another 2045

Orianna Syndra Veigar Velkoz Zyra Anivia can do just as much if not more than fiddle.

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