Congratulations Riot, you managed to make ADC broken

xJLx MCHammer·Aug 23, 2017·67 votes·4,788 views

When every class/role has to find a way to directly affect an ADC, you can no longer deny that the role is over tuned.

Supports shouldn't build specifically to help ADC champions, yet they do. Half the items a support builds directly affects an ADC more than any other person. Tanks that are found in Support roles, too lane or jungle now just build items that generally help the ADC.

Congrats adc2017!

Where they can now effectively stand on one spot and blow everyone away. You barely see other roles that get this much attention

As for Pro play Let's not forget that if we see a bot lane without an ADC anymore. Yet, seeing ADC literally sh***ing on AP mids through out early, mid, and late game is totally fine.

Watching the NA LCS this week goes a long way to show that's ADC are overtuned. They get played more because so many AP champions are no longer viable. Forget trying to kill a ADC champion with a assassin or many AP champions. The design that champions and mid champions should be able to 1v1 ADC champions is long ago

81 Comments

RaoulAug 23, 201726 votes

*implying that ADCs were ever optional or balanced at all...

AirKingNeoAug 24, 20174 votes

having a burst mid isn't optional.

having a tanky top isn't optional.

But man, having a DPS in the bot lane is fucking retarded.

Critmaster GarenAug 24, 201720 votes

{quoted}

having a burst mid isn't optional.

yes it is. there is a guy playing around diamond 2 by running garen mid lane right now.

the mid lane meta has seen phases where marksmen (sustained damage and not burst) and bruisers, even supports were run mid lane.

having a tanky top isn't optional.

bullshit. top lane is seeing bruisers, tanks, mages, assassins and even fucking marksmen.

since when are champions like Quinn Fiora Riven Yasuo Gangplank Ekko or Heimerdinger tanky? most of them dont build more defense than one or two damage+health items. their builds arent different than when youre running them mid lane.

Weiss GuertenaAug 24, 20175 votes

This. For every position except bot lane ADC you can pick between several classes.

For mid you can play assassins, mages who can excel in burst, sustained damage or utility, figthers... and ADCs. Top you can play a tank, a juggernaut or an assassin if you want to pick a fight, or a poke heavy mage or ADC if that floats your boat. Jungle is probably the most versatile role, as almost every single class has seen play there. Support, similarly, can be occupied by tanks, mages, enchanters - and again, specific ADCs.

When ADC's are "bad", they are still the only mandatory class. When they are "good" they have S-tier representatives in most roles. I think Riot and ADC players need to redefine their meaning of a "bad" and "good" place for a class to be in.

AirKingNeoAug 24, 20171 votes

Mordekaiser, Ziggs, Ahri, Aurelion Sol.

All are played as bot lane.

KnoyleAug 25, 20172 votes

Ziggs was barely two patches. Where are you getting this info? Bronze games? The only time I see those guys go bot is when my friends do that shit.

Votable JesterAug 25, 20171 votes

Well Mordekaiser has been played bot a decent amount and successfully, he just needs a team build around him.

AirKingNeoAug 24, 20171 votes

yes it is. there is a guy playing around diamond 2 by running garen mid lane right now.

THERE'S FUCKING RUBICK IN DIAMOND AROUND NOW WITH A 60%+ WINRATE ON FUCKING MORDEKAISER ADC!

You're trying to say because "omg an garen mid" is played that appearently ADC is the only required role meanwhile there's an Ahri ADC main in diamond, an Aurelion Sol ADC in diamond, fucking mordekaiser ADC player in diamond.

Wow, who knew anti-bruisers viable top lane. It's like Teemo and Rumble and Gnar aren't the only ones. Ekko isn't top laner anymore. Skirmishers have anti-bruiser and tanky mechanics in their kits.

Man, the boards really fucking enjoy downvoting people who are factually correct just because they don't like what they say. Thanks for suppressing the truth.

Critmaster GarenAug 25, 20173 votes

{quoted}

THERE'S FUCKING RUBICK IN DIAMOND AROUND NOW WITH A 60%+ WINRATE ON FUCKING MORDEKAISER ADC!

mordekaiser is one single bruiser who was deliberately designed to be able to duo lane with the juggernaut rework, lmao. he is one exception.

how many other champions besides morde do you know that can go bot lane and survive vs. a marksman and his support?

a single non adc who was made to lane with a support is able to lane on bot doesnt make champion diversity in the lane. like all the other lanes actually have many different champions and champion types you can take them there regularly.

the mid lane garen was just an example. you could just as well take other bruisers and skirmishers mid lane. or markmen. or tanks like galio.

xJLx MCHammerAug 25, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xlJbuYzE,comment-id=00050000000000010000,timestamp=2017-08-25T08:50:48.726+0000)

mordekaiser is one single bruiser who was deliberately designed to be able to duo lane with the juggernaut rework, lmao. he is one exception.

how many other champions besides morde do you know that can go bot lane and survive vs. a marksman and his support?

a single non adc who was made to lane with a support is able to lane on bot doesnt make champion diversity in the lane. like all the other lanes actually have many different champions and champion types you can take them there regularly.

the mid lane garen was just an example. you could just as well take other bruisers and skirmishers mid lane. or markmen. or tanks like galio.

Mid lane sees ADC, assassins, AP, and bruisers.

It's only ADC role that is mandatory

RaoulAug 24, 20172 votes

even now there are ADCs in mid in freaking LCS...

AirKingNeoAug 24, 20171 votes

And there was a juggernaut bot lane?

And a mage top lane?

RaoulAug 24, 20171 votes

When? When was there a Juggernaut replacing the ADC Botlane? (Outside from the very very short period where Mordekaiser was so busted that picking him could as well just let the enemy nexus explode?)

AirKingNeoAug 24, 20171 votes

What about Ziggs bot lane? What about Ahri ADC and Aurelion Sol ADC which people have played into Diamond ELO. How about the guy who still plays Mordekaiser ADC and still does well?

These are all niche picks just like Teemo top, Lucian mid. There's just less of them.

We have always had DPS bot lane. We have always had burst mid lane. We have always had tankiness top lane. Niche champions and picks that break the mold have always existed.

RaoulAug 24, 20172 votes

Ah yeah, Ziggs Botlane, wasnt that a nice few weeks of fresh air that couldnt hold the candel against the ADC bot and was only used if a ADC was mid instead?

You seem to think that just because they moved the ADC from bot to mid, suddendly it was a game with no ADC. >Nope, still a game with an ADC, just the ADC was mid.

AirKingNeoAug 24, 20171 votes

https://www.op.gg/champion/ziggs/statistics/adc Still above 50% winrate.

Ziggs had a 54% winrate during his days. ADCs weren't ran mid either. In fact, never. Wow, you really don't know your history.

was only used if a ADC was mid instead

Don't argue if you're just gonna blatantly lie and spread false facts.

RaoulAug 25, 20171 votes

So... why didnt it change the Meta forever and was gone like a month after it first appeared?

AirKingNeoAug 26, 20171 votes

Because the meta was changed by the game's patches to make everything else greater than it.

Shocker.

ADC Is TrashAug 23, 20177 votes

You realise that you are shit talking the role whose job is literally to carry. They really don't have any other purpose, so unless you wanna go back to season 5 (and I know I don't), then nothing is going to change. To change ADCs would require MAJOR changes to the entire game. Supports don't build for the ADC, they build for the team, sometimes it's the ADC who benefits the most from it. To change the ADC of the carry position would mean reworks for a majority of the marksmen.

ADC Is TrashAug 23, 20175 votes

Might I add it is also the tank meta, so really the ADCs are going to be stronger than any other role

xJLx MCHammerAug 23, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nova Frostwing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xlJbuYzE,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-08-23T21:53:47.007+0000)

Might I add it is also the tank meta, so really the ADCs are going to be stronger than any other role

In a tank meta, AP champions should be good. An AP champions by design should be able to CC an ADC champion while an AP champion burst them before the CC ends. It does work like that anymore. Now you really need multiple members to kill an ADC

ADC Is TrashAug 23, 20174 votes

No, AP champs have a lot of CC and burst, the marksmen have a large DPS and can take a tank down consistently

xJLx MCHammerAug 23, 201729 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nova Frostwing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xlJbuYzE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-08-23T21:52:59.479+0000)

You realise that you are shit talking the role whose job is literally to carry. They really don't have any other purpose, so unless you wanna go back to season 5 (and I know I don't), then nothing is going to change. To change ADCs would require MAJOR changes to the entire game. Supports don't build for the ADC, they build for the team, sometimes it's the ADC who benefits the most from it. To change the ADC of the carry position would mean reworks for a majority of the marksmen.

ADC aren't the only carry. They are attack damage carry because they scale well late game. At the moment, they are actually being played in mid lane because they can do a better job early, Mid, and late game

If ap champions were being played in botlane without adcs, ADC mains would go crazy

Dasdi96Aug 23, 201715 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xlJbuYzE,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-08-23T22:29:13.563+0000)

ADC aren't the only carry. They are attack damage carry because they scale well late game. At the moment, they are actually being played in mid lane because they can do a better job early, Mid, and late game

If ap champions were being played in botlane without adcs, ADC mains would go crazy

I remember when ziggs apc bot was a viable adc replacement. However, the boards and reddit went insane saying stuff like "adc2k17lul" and "adc is dead" when there was still stuff like graves jg, corki mid, and quinn top as well as ashe and jhin being great picks.

ADC Is TrashAug 23, 20177 votes

No, you don't understand. Ziggs was good because he could do everything that an ADC couldn't at the time, you dont seem to understand that as patches come through, the meta shifts.

THE META SHIFTS

Lethality was super good at the beginning of the season so ADCs were trash.

Now, after assassins have gotten a much-needed bench, and tank items have been buffed, ADCs are good. Why? ADCs are good into tanks.

Critmaster GarenAug 24, 201715 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nova Frostwing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xlJbuYzE,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2017-08-23T22:39:34.479+0000)

No, you don't understand. Ziggs was good because he could do everything that an ADC couldn't at the time

ziggs was good because of 1 reason alone.

**500 gold turret first blood **was broken overpowered and the bot lane turret lost its fortification buff at the same time. whichever team got the turret first blood on bot lane used to win the game with a chance of 90% off the gold from the kills and the gold from the turrets.

ziggs has a gimmick which allows him to 1 shot turrets from 40% health with a rank 5 w, which allowed him to be a viable bot lane pick next to marksmen at the time.

that was it. all there was to it.

adc at the time werent even weak or had scaling issues because of items, kits or some other shit. the entire problem at the time was nonstop pressure and 5 man gangbangs on bot lane for turret first blood, and games ending at 12 to 20 minutes as a result of it.

adc

were never

weak.

and ziggs was never stronger than adc. he was just a gimmicky pick in a gimmicky meta and wasnt even stronger than the marksmen he shared his lane with.

AirKingNeoAug 24, 20171 votes

If ADCs were never weak, then were tanks too strong?

ADC Is TrashAug 23, 20172 votes

You realise games are ending earlier right? You can snowball a gold lead incredibly quickly, and snowball into late game. legitimately, your argument is invalid simply because you don't seem to understand that every season is different.

xJLx MCHammerAug 23, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nova Frostwing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xlJbuYzE,comment-id=000100010001,timestamp=2017-08-23T22:36:29.982+0000)

You realise games are ending earlier right? You can snowball a gold lead incredibly quickly, and snowball into late game. legitimately, your argument is invalid simply because you don't seem to understand that every season is different.

Every season is different, what does that have anything to do with the state we are in. Your "argument" boils down, "x champion is broken but it's okay, y was broken too but now it's not".

On another note, the Overtuning of ADC items is something that has not occurred over the course of one season. This has started back in season 3 and where we are now

MizayaAug 23, 20172 votes

Not really, lol. It would bring something new to bot lane. And I'm quite bored of playing ADC at the moment because it's the same picks and the meta makes picking certain ADCs terrible.

TurquoiseYoshiAug 24, 20173 votes

So Corki (who is basically just a mage who builds AD) is being played mid and everything is a travesty.

I know Kog and Lucian appear mid, but Lucian has only consistently worked for Faker and Kog appeared once and lost.

Automated RivenAug 24, 20172 votes

That was the game where the AP damage was ADC kog on one team, and ADC corki on the other right?

RavenMagusAug 24, 201710 votes

They legitimately added the term "marksman" to try and get away from the nomenclature that the ADC is the team's carry and no one else matters.

And yet here we are today.

GayFluffyUnicornAug 24, 20174 votes

Changing terms doesn't matter when riot still continues to treat marksmen as leagues quarterbacks.

RozzetaAug 24, 20176 votes

This is literally what the game intended to do since season 2. Morello had an entire thesis made on why the one with the main damage output should be the priority target at all points in the game. I don't like it either, but this is not the result of incompetence.

Stevev45Aug 24, 20176 votes

Morello believe in strong stun and burst options, witch mitigated the problem. Since then, the main design philosophy is that people should be able to out play stun and burst with twitch reflexes instead of just using map positioning. So burst was systematically made less bursty (takes longer), less reliable (you can dodge it), shields were made stronger and more plentiful, burst items were made weaker, and hybrid items were made more defensive.

So no this isn't what the game intended from season two, since the stun and burst options are a shell of their former selves.

MordepoolAug 24, 20176 votes

It only took 4 Biased Class Updates

Beas7ieAug 23, 20174 votes

The League of ADC hasn't really hit me that much lately.

Of course I've been abusing the hell out of cheesing Gargoyle Stoneplate with Cho'Gath so I can pretty much 100 -0 most ADC's even if I do often have to use my flash to get to them.

General Esdeath Aug 24, 20174 votes

I noticed this a while ago too, in that most support items item 3109 item 3190 item 3222 item 3401 item 3050 item 3069 are beneficial to an adc and nobody else. That full tank Malphite doesn't need you taking damage for him, or shielding him. That full bruiser Olaf or Rengar doesn't want your shield/QSS. Maybe a MasterYi would like it, but that's because he's just a melee adc.

SoundChaosDebugAug 23, 20173 votes

I thought the meme for marksman was they were bad, adcin2k17

GeauxxAug 23, 20175 votes

maybe for the first month if that.

Even now it's not adcs themselves that are overtuned... it's the support items.

Adc never do much until... that ardent censor is built, that's when they go crazy

xJLx MCHammerAug 23, 20175 votes

{quoted}

maybe for the first month if that.

Even now it's not adcs themselves that are overtuned... it's the support items.

Adc never do much until... that ardent censor is built, that's when they go crazy

They just abuse it the most and always will. It's not just Support items, it's ADC items as well. They are overtuned to have both survival while giving them every offensive stat

There used to be a time when a QSS did not build into anything which meant they sacrificed offensive for surviability. GA used to only offer defensive stats but not offers both...etc Including introduction of new items, they are just too overtuned for survival throughout the game. You have videos of a Kog standing still and trading blows which champions who were designed to kill them

ADC Is TrashAug 23, 20174 votes

Might I add, ADCs never got any buffs that made them OP, it was the things that dumpster them that got nerfed.

Champion SkinAug 24, 20172 votes

Well to be fair when crit was made cheaper it kind of was a buff to ADCs since not many other champions build crit

GayFluffyUnicornAug 24, 20173 votes

NEVER got any buffs? S6 rework. This season botrk buff which is still overtuned. Draven buff. Zeal upgrades buffs, IE buff. Deaths dance buff. GA turned into an AD item. NO BUFFS YOU SAY?

NoblewindAug 24, 20171 votes

"Supports shouldn't build specifically to help ADC champions, yet they do. Half the items a support builds directly affects an ADC more than any other person."

How is ADC broken based on this? Please enlighten me. There have been more or less No significant changes to marksmen over the past year, yet there have been jungle changes (because JG was OP early in the season), and a significant set of buffs to support itemization.

Seeing ADC shit on AP mids? I wouldn't call Corki an ADC anymore, so who? Only Lucian?? Lucian benefits from the items he buys and actually is weak in the bot lane ATM.

50ShadesOfÀDCAug 24, 20171 votes

Redemption is for team ardent is also for team (Karma R+E,Janna R and more,),Locket affects everyone.

xJLx MCHammerAug 24, 20172 votes

{quoted}

"Supports shouldn't build specifically to help ADC champions, yet they do. Half the items a support builds directly affects an ADC more than any other person."

How is ADC broken based on this? Please enlighten me. There have been more or less No significant changes to marksmen over the past year, yet there have been jungle changes (because JG was OP early in the season), and a significant set of buffs to support itemization.

Seeing ADC shit on AP mids? I wouldn't call Corki an ADC anymore, so who? Only Lucian?? Lucian benefits from the items he buys and actually is weak in the bot lane ATM.

An ADC is broken because it benefits from items more than any other champion. What is so hard to understand about that? ADC haven't received significant changes? Armor items have been reworked. As per Phreaks analysis video, almost all armor items outside of Gargoyle was nerfed in gold efficiency. Items that ADC purchase have been buffed or reworked. BOTRK, IE, SS have all been buffed. GA items have been reworked for AD purposes. QSS has gotten an item it can upgrade to. Armor penetration has increase and given buffs (as per phreak). They benefit the most from suppers items like Arden, knights vow..etc. New ad items have also been introduced.

So please tell how did you come to the conclusion that ADC have barely been touched? Wtf is wrong with you? Where is your logic?

NoblewindAug 24, 20171 votes

They're supposed to benefit from items more than other champs. That's what late game scaling is.

Got me on those item changes, GA especially does help them more than it used to, but I don't think BORK was a huge change, it made the item useable when it wasnt bought before.

I totally agree that they benefit from the buffs in supp items, but I don't agree that the first position to point out as being too strong with respect to that is the ADC. Support buffs have made it too easy for ADCs to scale consistently, which is in part why you see late game champs like Twitch/Kog/Trist succeed even when games are only lasting 30mins. I disagree that nerfing marksman as a group is a solution to this problem.

Lethality was buffed but the effect of that has been changing the top ADC picks more than making ADCs stronger as a whole.

Wtf is wrong with me? Wow thanks...great way to have a conversation

xJLx MCHammerAug 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

They're supposed to benefit from items more than other champs. That's what late game scaling is.

Got me on those item changes, GA especially does help them more than it used to, but I don't think BORK was a huge change, it made the item useable when it wasnt bought before.

I totally agree that they benefit from the buffs in supp items, but I don't agree that the first position to point out as being too strong with respect to that is the ADC. Support buffs have made it too easy for ADCs to scale consistently, which is in part why you see late game champs like Twitch/Kog/Trist succeed even when games are only lasting 30mins. I disagree that nerfing marksman as a group is a solution to this problem.

Lethality was buffed but the effect of that has been changing the top ADC picks more than making ADCs stronger as a whole.

Wtf is wrong with me? Wow thanks...great way to have a conversation

I said what's wrong with you in terms of you saying, "ADC did not have any significant changes done to them."

That statement was totally in correct. Armor and HP values were changed. Armor boots passive was changed. AD items have been buffed across the board from BOTRK, to BT, to IE, to SS. New AD items were introduce. Old items were reworked to benefit ADCs. ADC were either nerfed or buffed. Support items that ADC benefit from the most due to proximity early game and late game sync has been buffed. Items like Knights Vow, Arden..etc have all benefited ADC's the most

The statement you made not correct.

I also never said or made a statement regarding nerfing the entire role. I just made a topic to say the changes over the course of 3-4 seasons have gotten us in this situation where not only are ADC mandatory in games, they are becoming the class in my opinion is broken. ADC by design will normally mean that changes tend to benefit or hurt them all in a similar pattern (but different degree)

It's time Riot address that ADC is no longer the role that is weak early game. We are seeing ADC go in mid lane, a lane that should be scared to go into from champions classes like Assassins, or mages. Instead, they are beating them in lane. Are they all doing it? NO! Of course not. People are still following the mage/assassin setup in mid. Give it another season with the way we are heading and you will see more ADC in mid lane. Last weeks LCS/LP have shown it. 25+AP mages, players can't pick any one of them because they don't have the early game to fight a Lucian/kog early game but they can't scale into late game as good...They lose out in mid game due to their disadvantage early game.

This was what AP and assassins were meant to do ADC champions; beat them early or mid game to make them fall behind and not reach a late game that is superior to ADC champions. We are slowly moving away from that where ADC are become better at early mid game for various reason that I have stated.