Boards›Gameplay

Remove waveclear from ADC itemization

xJLx MCHammer··113 votes·4,191 views

Riot,

Don't be biased. When Ziggs was able to stall games due to being able to QWE waves, you nerfed him to the point that he couldn't do that anymore.

Yet, when ADC itemize item 3087 item 3094 or item 3085 that gives them both insane damage and insane wave clear, you turn a blind eye.

A tristana can nearly wave clear an entior minion wave with one auto if she has item 3087 item 3094 . She can do it with insane range and speed to the point that she can do it more efficiency than majority of AP mages. HELLO!! No, it's not just Tristana, Caitlyn can just form a trap around a turret entrance and use the same items.

STOP giving champions itemization to cover their supposed design. A champion may have been designed to do high single target sustained damage, but low wave clear. These types of items continue to give them insane damage and totally cover their weakness that they were designed to have. It's one thing to slightly help them but these two items item 3094 item 3087 combine not only help them overcome their supposed weakness, but surpass champions who's should it should be do wave clear better.

EDIT: Here is a clear example, that even the caster call it out as it's sooo good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbbtHsnncjQ at 57:00. One minion wave gone, in one hit.

To make it clear, I do think that ADC's can and should have wave clear. However, i don't think it should be granted freely without a downside. Hurricane used to be an item that granted you wave clear at a cost of that single target damage. Now, these items like hurricane, Static Shiv, and PFC are add too much damage and still granted that insane wave clear. Waveclear that not even AP champions can actually match.

136 Comments

ChaoticPinecone13 votes

Its funny how you use an example of Tristana.

PASSIVE: Enemies explode when slain by Tristana's basic attacks, dealing magic damage to all nearby enemies.

ACTIVE: Tristana places an explosive charge on the target enemy or enemy turret. After 4 seconds the charge explodes, dealing physical damage to nearby enemies. The explosion radius is doubled when used on a turret.

Trist is supposed to have waveclear. Shiv helps out, sure. But Trist isnt a single-target ADC when taking down minion waves.

...and in your clip Trist had to get 3 shiv procs + baron empowered minions to clear that wave from distance.

I get that you might not want ADCs to have wavelcear, but making stuff up doesnt help your cause. It wanst, "One minion wave gone, in one hit."

ModWulf Helhammer9 votes

Ok, then we remove any kind of waveclear on champions like Cass, Azir, Ryze..I mean they're supposed to be DPS single target damage so why do they get to have great waveclear?

The reason Ziggs was a problem was because he could do it from half a screen away, and since mana regen was a stat then, he never had to back. ADCs have to, you know, auto attack stuff, and absolutely none of them can do it from the kind of range siege mages do.

Waveclear isn't a class specific stat.

KoKoboto44 votes

Ummmm what?

Cassiopeia's weakness IS wave clear. She can't out push other mages because she focuses a lot on single target damage. Unless you decide to make Q first or something, it takes a damn while to clear a wave.

Ryze has wave clear but he needs to invest 2 Es and Q in order to wave clear, or get a minion down low enough. One of the reasons Ryze has super low win rate is becauuse his wave clear sucks.

Azir also has a shit win rate and his wave clear is also mediocre. He has to invest his soldiers positioning and "auto attack" numerous times to clear a wave.

Man cut the BS.

Penns19 votes

One of the reasons Ryze has super low win rate is becauuse his wave clear sucks.

i dunno about that tho

GayFluffyUnicorn6 votes

Compared to other mages he has shit waveclear. His waveclear specifically got nerfed over and over again and unlike other mages he is oom after trying to clear two waves.

Penns6 votes

i mean idk how it is after the e cooldown and q damage nerf but his wave clear in lane was aids when he was meta and his win rate was still low.

xJLx MCHammer3 votes

{quoted}

i mean idk how it is after the e cooldown nerf but his wave clear in lane was aids when he was meta and his win rate was still low.

His winrate was low because his range was low. He was able to stall lanes until team fighting. At team fights, he only needed a split second to kill an ADC. He was also really good at kiting melee champions.

Now, they nerfed his E minion wave(so the stalling sucks). They nerfed how Rylai's work, so the kiting is not good. They also nerfed his R burst damage to be damage over time.

I'm surprised he even has such a high winrate anymore. I think he is at 46% right now. He definitely should be a bit lower than that. I played this champion and have level 7 mastery. Last season, I had a huge winrate on him (like 70%) but after the nerfs he is not worth playing anymore. There are ADC who will outtrade you unless you land a W

My Heartshaker10 votes

"R burst damage"

"I'm surprised he even has such a high winrate anymore" "I think he is at 46% right now."

"unless you land a W"

... Do you even read what you write?

Thefrostyviking9 votes

{quoted}

Ummmm what?

Cassiopeia's weakness IS wave clear. She can't out push other mages because she focuses a lot on single target damage. Unless you decide to make Q first or something, it takes a damn while to clear a wave.

Ryze has wave clear but he needs to invest 2 Es and Q in order to wave clear, or get a minion down low enough. One of the reasons Ryze has super low win rate is becauuse his wave clear sucks.

Azir also has a shit win rate and his wave clear is also mediocre. He has to invest his soldiers positioning and "auto attack" numerous times to clear a wave.

Man cut the BS.

By the time a marksman has item 3087 item 3094 and item 3031 both cassio and Ryze can easily wavecler.

I know because i´ve played both ryze and cassio, as well as a number of marksmen.

wyvern0119764 votes

Really...by the time ADCs have these three items its way into the game. EVERYONE can wave clear by that time. I mean 10k in items on any champ usually results in a pretty good clear time. Not to mention they are level 13+ by then.

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

Yeah, the main thing that makes ADC's having great waveclear with just their auto attacks such a problem is that they sacrifice nothing to do it.

xJLx MCHammer4 votes

{quoted}

Ok, then we remove any kind of waveclear on champions like Cass, Azir, Ryze..I mean they're supposed to be DPS single target damage so why do they get to have great waveclear?

The reason Ziggs was a problem was because he could do it from half a screen away, and since mana regen was a stat then, he never had to back. ADCs have to, you know, auto attack stuff, and absolutely none of them can do it from the kind of range siege mages do.

Waveclear isn't a class specific stat.

NO that was never the problem

If the problem was that he can do it from half a screen away, they would have fixed and addressed it the same way they did with Anivia. Anivia had a problem when she couldn't ult, recall to base while still pushing in lane. Heim was able to keep his turret active while being anywhere else in the map without an issue. They nerfed Viktors E damage to minion when it was a problem in terms of doing it far too safe that it stalled games.

If the problem was his range, they would have addressed it accordingly, like they have with many other AP champions. Instead, they nerf his damage because his QWE was able to wave clear minions. Now, if a minion has baron empowered bonus, he can't not clear it. They also nerfed his damage so one W doesn't wave clear an entire minion wave like before.

In regards to Cassiopeia, she doesn't wave clear. She has to Q and constantly E minions. She can't use one ability or one rotation to actually clear a minion wave, even late game. She has to constantly use E. Normally, by late game, Q+3E will take down the first row. Otherwise, it takes too long if she just Q+W a wave/.That's not waveclear unless you consider Sunfire camp wave clear

As far as Azir, Ryze, and even LeBlanc are concerned, they are all slated for small reworks. Everyone who has seen Leblanc has already agreed that she has a problem in regards to her wave clear. They gave a single target damage champion easy access to wave clear. Her pre-rework was more healthier because you could force her under turret by constantly pushing lane. Now, she can poke and wave clear at the same time. Ryze will get rework eventually. Riot had a hard on for him.

Now, with all this said, yes, other AP champions have this issue to. My point is, normally, these champions have an issue with their kit. IE; Anivia's ultimate working from where ever you are; heim turrets working from any distance..etc. What the issue with ADC is stemming from the itemization. You don't see that kind of itemization on AP champions outside of item 3285 which has been nerfed for that reason. Yet, Riot continuously turns a blind eye on unhealthy itemization on ADC itemization.

Thefrostyviking4 votes

There was no way to fix ziggs waveclear though, except nerfing either his scaling, base damage or items.

Because he was designed to have the range he does, and changing it would cause far more issues.

Now he is a good/Average midlaner among many.

Chembaron Yamada8 votes

Question: Why just for ADCs? That's highly biased. There are many items supposed to help with waveclear.

item 3025 item 3074 item 3068 item 3748 item 3077 item 3285 item 3751 item 1402 item 1413 So remove these as well then? I mean, specific champions are supposed to have the weakness of having no waveclear, right? So why just remove it for ADCs?

Waveclear items exist for every class, don't just hate on marksmen and demand the removal of their items, at least be fair.

Enloct4 votes

One difference is that those all require you to get close to the wave. You can't defend a tower with sunfire, etc. The one "exception" is Ludens but it doesn't actually do jack shit.

xJLx MCHammer6 votes

{quoted}

Question: Why just for ADCs? That's highly biased. There are many items supposed to help with waveclear.

item 3025 item 3074 item 3068 item 3748 item 3077 item 3285 item 3751 item 1402 item 1413 So remove these as well then? I mean, specific champions are supposed to have the weakness of having no waveclear, right? So why just remove it for ADCs?

Waveclear items exist for every class, don't just hate on marksmen and demand the removal of their items, at least be fair.

To a point you are right.

The difference is, these champions by design must till suffer from not having the safety of range

A Tristana can wave clear, and it's extremely hard for you to stop it. At the range she is in, there is little you can do. A champion that uses item 3748 item 3074 must be at range and they tend to get punished for it.

Luden's echo is not really an insane wave clear item. It's normally the champion that uses it that has a problem.

The other items you mentioned arent really considered wave clear. They give some form of wave clear but it's clear that it's in no way overbearing.

wyvern0119761 votes

That's the advantage of being an ADC...ranged auto attacks. Its kind of a class feature. Other classes have higher mobility, cc, high aoe damage, or high hp to compensate while they wave clear. Ever watch even a Garen walk up spin a wave and be at full health 6 seconds later after taking multiple attacks from the opposing team? He is not even strong in the meta, but can wave clear. There are dozens of similar examples. People have to understand that whiners are going to complain about something. As soon as one thing is nerfed something else rises to seem strong in the vacuum. You cant nerf your way to balance. That is a never ending process.

xJLx MCHammer6 votes

{quoted}

That's the advantage of being an ADC...ranged auto attacks. Its kind of a class feature. Other classes have higher mobility, cc, high aoe damage, or high hp to compensate while they wave clear. Ever watch even a Garen walk up spin a wave and be at full health 6 seconds later after taking multiple attacks from the opposing team? He is not even strong in the meta, but can wave clear. There are dozens of similar examples. People have to understand that whiners are going to complain about something. As soon as one thing is nerfed something else rises to seem strong in the vacuum. You cant nerf your way to balance. That is a never ending process.

Youre confusing a champion kit with a role adc

if there was an item that suddenly granted Garen the ability to auto from range, you'd argue that it's not an item that he needs because his kit was designed to be melee. I'm not arguing that ADC's should not have built in wave clear, IE Sivir, Trist, Jinx. I'm taking about the fact that their normal itemization is built for nearly optimal damage but that was the intention, why does the built path still give them huge waveclear?

Asayake 5150glow3 votes

{quoted}

Question: Why just for ADCs? That's highly biased. There are many items supposed to help with waveclear.

item 3025 item 3074 item 3068 item 3748 item 3077 item 3285 item 3751 item 1402 item 1413 So remove these as well then? I mean, specific champions are supposed to have the weakness of having no waveclear, right? So why just remove it for ADCs?

Waveclear items exist for every class, don't just hate on marksmen and demand the removal of their items, at least be fair.

Because those items aren't nearly as good.

None of them can do 500 damage except for Rav (or Sunfire, if you never auto, or maybe Titanic if you have a million health), and that's because Rav is only built on people who are supposed to have waveclear, just not early game.

Chembaron Yamada4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LUvRym7X,comment-id=00050002,timestamp=2017-09-11T21:13:58.575+0000) [...] because Rav is only built on people who are supposed to have waveclear, just not early game.

Can't you say the same for ADCs, though? That they are supposed to have waveclear, just not early game?

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Can't you say the same for ADCs, though? That they are supposed to have waveclear, just not early game?

Because ADC's aren't supposed to have waveclear.

The difference is that Rav requires being in melee range, which completely defeats the point of waveclear. What's the point of waveclear? To make it impossible to seige since you annihilate each minion wave before it reaches your tower so your opponent can't do anything. A melee champion waveclearing is vulnerable, while an ADC is not.

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

Riot is deciding what ADCs are supposed to have and what not... And looking at these items and that Riot was increasing the ability of marksmen to clear minions with their kit in the past, it seems that they actually think that they are supposed to have waveclear.

10 fps1 votes

That's not true at all. Ravenous hydra is built on a large number of melee champions especially those with no waveclear.

Chembaron Yamada2 votes

And the argument that it shouldn't be a thing that ADCs don't lose damage building waveclear... I mean, come on, the hydra items are built for waveclear as well, they provide pretty good damage and oftenly increase the damage even further by providing an AA reset.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I will misclick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LUvRym7X,comment-id=000500020001,timestamp=2017-09-12T18:27:38.989+0000)

That's not true at all. Ravenous hydra is built on a large number of melee champions especially those with no waveclear.

Well, first of all Rav isn't build on that many champions. Second, most of those champions do not pose any problems when given waveclear.

10 fps1 votes

Majority of top laners build ravenous/titanic hydra. If they don't they're propably a tank, a triforce user or an attack speed champion.

And what is the problem exactly with ADCs having waveclear?

TyroneWatermelon6 votes

With that so, the only legit waveclear marksmen will be Sivir, Lucian and Jinx, Out of any other marksman like Varus, Ashe, Miss Fortune, Twitch, Xayah, Kindred, Jhin, Quinn, Tristana, Kog'maw, Caitlyn, Corki, while Draven, Vayne Kalista and Ezreal will have literally none.

Only 3 out of 19 marksmen will have access to above laughable waveclear, and that includes lucian's Ult, because it doesn't deal any damage to champions anyway Yeah, very good idea (sarcasm)

xJLx MCHammer11 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Do Not Exist,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LUvRym7X,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-09-11T19:32:04.057+0000)

With that so, the only legit waveclear marksmen will be Sivir, Lucian and Jinx, Out of any other marksman like Varus, Ashe, Miss Fortune, Twitch, Xayah, Kindred, Jhin, Quinn, Tristana, Kog'maw, Caitlyn, Corki, while Draven, Vayne Kalista and Ezreal will have literally none.

Only 3 out of 19 marksmen will have access to above laughable waveclear, and that includes lucian's Ult, because it doesn't deal any damage to champions anyway Yeah, very good idea (sarcasm)

They shouldn't have wave clear. That's exactly my points. They have should have high single target sustain damaged. Instead, they get waveclear along with high single target sustain damaged

Thefrostyviking4 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LUvRym7X,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-09-11T19:55:18.794+0000)

They shouldn't have wave clear. That's exactly my points. They have should have high single target sustain damaged. Instead, they get waveclear along with high single target sustain damaged

Waveclear is fine though because marksmen need to auto attack to do it, however what's not fine is that they with item 3087 and item 3094 along with a item 3031 can do it near instantly-

Using item 3085 and like 3-6 auto attacks? That's perfectly fine.

Using the static build and doing it in 1-2? Not k.

StairCasexd2 votes

Xayahs wave clear feels pretty good but yeah not much of a difference.

Kloqdq11 votes

Xayah, bad wave clear? What.

Tristana, Corki,and Twitch all have pretty damn good wave clear too. Many of the other champions on there can wave clear just fine as well but it's pretty stupidly ramped by Shiv and Hurricane existing.

Pop0001001 votes

Twitch's wave clear is pretty much just his ult which your playing him wrong if your using it for wave clear, W->E is not very good it does like 300 damage late game or like half a caster

Kloqdq2 votes

Twitch is pretty decent overall. It's not terrible compared to some.

Rockem Sockm6 votes

Play Ezreal for 50 games then go back to a crit adc. The energizer combo is Op and ridiculous.

lojician5 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LUvRym7X,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-09-11T18:16:15.315+0000)

Riot,

Don't be biased.

Funny joke

Onandaga4 votes

item 3085's waveclear is okay imo. The item that should be changed is item 3087. I'd really like to see it be reworked to cater to melee AP assassins.

Cowseed4 votes

Protip: You can link Youtube videos to a specific point in the video with the 'share' button and use of the 'start at' option.

Meeks0113 votes

item 3068 damage is pathetic if you actually ever look at it. Lower DPS than a caster minion.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

Waveclear is kinda pointless to complain about i think, i mean, so many champs do it easily and towers are,,,,,kinda weak anyway.

Ever saw a nautilus tank like 31 shots from nexus turrets lategame?

But i´ll agree that static and RFC are too strong, for even though they are alright by themselves they are indeed to strong together with an IE.

But don't go calling hurricane OP, it takes like 3-6 shots to fully wipe a wave using it,depending on time and other items, that's balanced enough.

xJLx MCHammer4 votes

{quoted}

Waveclear is kinda pointless to complain about i think, i mean, so many champs do it easily and towers are,,,,,kinda weak anyway.

Ever saw a nautilus tank like 31 shots from nexus turrets lategame?

But i´ll agree that static and RFC are too strong, for even though they are alright by themselves they are indeed to strong together with an IE.

But don't go calling hurricane OP, it takes like 3-6 shots to fully wipe a wave using it,depending on time and other items, that's balanced enough.

Without a doubt, towers are crap. My issue is that Riot seems to be turning a blind eye on ADC itemization despite the fact that other champions (non adc) get nerfed for those reasons. A viktor was nerfed for being able to E a oncoming wave. Yet, we see ADC's like Cait, or Tristana AA a minion when they have item 3087 item 3094 and clearly the entire wave after mid game. It's pretty clear at the top level when you watch LCS/LPL/LCK..etc that these items are causing the same issue that Viktor, Azir, Ziggs were nerfed for.

Just watch this weeks game between C9 and CLG, even the caster kept saying, "X just has to auto one minion to stall this push". What happens, the trist walks in range of the wave, AA's and pooof! the wave is almost all gone. The cannon minion survived with 35%hp...

When Viktor was doing the same thing last year, riot nerfed him for being able to wave clear nearly an entire minion. It's like, they seem to completely ignore some design decisions when it comes to ADC's.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LUvRym7X,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2017-09-11T20:27:53.263+0000)

When Viktor was doing the same thing last year, riot nerfed him for being able to wave clear nearly an entire minion. It's like, they seem to completely ignore some design decisions when it comes to ADC's.

Victor was doing it with like 1 or 2 items though, and his were a lot cheaper, everyone was kinda frustrated about playing against him because of it.

But for the same reasons people are now getting fed up with static and RFC, they are too good for game balance, offering extremely quick waveclear, a burst that marksmen aren't meant to have and they don't even lose much from building it compared to ruunan-phantom, instead it's very possible they gain a lot more in all but a few cases.

Usually Riot would nerf that kinda thing quickly, they sure did it with Ashe and jhin (altho over the duration over a few patches), however there have been cases when they were slow in the past.

Syndra, Zyra, brand, malz,zac and Ivern to mention a few.

I wonder what they are thinking about this time since they aren't showing any visible sign of doing much of anything, heard something about a nerf to Tristana's E mainly aimed at her lategame out of everything........

xJLx MCHammer2 votes

{quoted}

Victor was doing it with like 1 or 2 items though, and his were a lot cheaper, everyone was kinda frustrated about playing against him because of it.

But for the same reasons people are now getting fed up with static and RFC, they are too good for game balance, offering extremely quick waveclear, a burst that marksmen aren't meant to have and they don't even lose much from building it compared to ruunan-phantom, instead it's very possible they gain a lot more in all but a few cases.

Usually Riot would nerf that kinda thing quickly, they sure did it with Ashe and jhin (altho over the duration over a few patches), however there have been cases when they were slow in the past.

Syndra, Zyra, brand, malz,zac and Ivern to mention a few.

I wonder what they are thinking about this time since they aren't showing any visible sign of doing much of anything, heard something about a nerf to Tristana's E mainly aimed at her lategame out of everything........

Yeah, they were fed up. Viktor and Azir were able to wave clear easily. Yes, early on. Now, ADC can do it almost as quick. Mostly because teams throw as much items as they can to the ADC and it works out great. Why get a Ziggs to hold the lane when a cait with SS+RFG can do it better.

Enraged Piglet1 votes

ziggs and azir could do it better/ from a further range while having abilties that are good at zoning and for instance azir was able to do shit tons of damage and his ult playmaking ability was super strong.

Plus for adc's to waveclear they have to have rather good items. Most the time the team that has that waveclear will be the winning team. Wheras Ziggs or azir even if they themselves are 0/5 and there team is also feeding could stall games for 30 minutes.

Also azir wasn't nerfed because of his waveclear he was nerfed because he was strong. Though maybe he was never as strong in solo que but in tournaments he was.

Also your almost acting like there's no mid lane champion you can play that can really keep up with ad's. Like really, mid lane is almost always has a set of champions that are 1st or 2nd strongest in the game. It rarely if ever happens that it goes to 3rd strongest and I don't think it's ever been lower then that. The reason being that mid laners are in the middle of the map and influence everything. When midlaners have the ability to force the other mid laner to stay in there lane and can take there turret while poking the shit out of them while also scaling well and having play making abilities and zoning abilities in teamfights and the ability to still on top of that influence other lanes because the stronger mid laner ALWAYS influences the rest of the map even if they didn't leave there lane or have abilities like ziggs ult to waveclear mid-late game.

Enraged Piglet1 votes

also to add to this even though adc is strong right now. There aren't any S tier ad's right now. There's several A tier but the only S tier is kalista right now and it just happens that everybody sucks with kalista below diamond. And below diamond the only reason things like Twitch can be strong is that they get fed and the fact that teams don't know how to teamfight around him. Which if one or two people teamfight correctly and actually teamfight instead of your team going in for 2v5's and twitch isn't grossly fed which any champion can win games if fed then you'll probably win.

I'm actually a support main but made this account to try out ad and it's suprising how differnt teamfights look when the entire enemy team goes on you when your say a fed kog'maw and your team instead of peeling or playing around you will 100% of the time go for the enemy adc even if there like 1/7 tank frozen fist ezreal or some shit they can never kill because your team are all tanks with low damage and the enemy team has 3 assasains. Like really in this case instead of trying to kill the adc your team would just protect you but it doesn't happen even in the plat 4/3 games I'm playing right now. Hell right now I still can barely find any supports who even know how to lane half way decently or even attempt to try and ward aggressively. Honeslty as a support if you can give lane pressure and track the enemy jungler so you don't die to ganks you can literally get to high plat maybe low diamond.

So even if adc's are strong there really only op in certain cases like in low elo where no one knows what there doing which also kinda screws with both adcs even when ahead. The real problem in low elo is sense people throw all game your pretty much guarenteed as a trist or kog or twitch to outscale things like kalista which is the actual op champ.

Also caitlyn wasn't nerfed because of her wave clear she was nerfed because her traps gave her the ability to one shot everyone.

Quepha2 votes

Waveclear is easily accessible on ALL champion classes at the moment through itemization. Taking it away from only adcs seems like it could upset balance in strange ways.

xJLx MCHammer2 votes

{quoted}

Waveclear is easily accessible on ALL champion classes at the moment through itemization. Taking it away from only adcs seems like it could upset balance in strange ways.

Outside of Ludens echo, which AP item grants that insane clear speed that SS/RFG/Hurricane offer?

for melee champions, they do have Hydra but it they need to still AA the minion up close. It doesn't grant the champion the safety that RFG+SS does. These two items practically make it okay for the champion like Tristana to hit the last minion on a wave. That's almost the range of a Xerath full charged Q... a SIEGE champion.

Quepha6 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LUvRym7X,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-09-11T20:56:25.681+0000)

Outside of Ludens echo, which AP item grants that insane clear speed that SS/RFG/Hurricane offer?

Being an AP mage they already have amazing waveclear, that's a core part of being a mage.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

What grants mages their good waveclear is their kit. Almost every mage, with the only exceptions being...Uhm...Yeah, just Janna, Rakan, and Sona. Three enchanter supports. And maybe Ryze. That's it. Every single other mage has an ability that passes through minions, or is a wide ground-targeted ability.

xJLx MCHammer2 votes

{quoted}

What grants mages their good waveclear is their kit. Almost every mage, with the only exceptions being...Uhm...Yeah, just Janna, Rakan, and Sona. Three enchanter supports. And maybe Ryze. That's it. Every single other mage has an ability that passes through minions, or is a wide ground-targeted ability.

That's entirely true

While AP mages have wave clear built in their kit, they don't have items that suddenly change their aoe damage into insane single target damage. They had that time, it was called Deathfire Grasp because it was giving champions burst that weren't suppose to, and champions who already have burst, more burst. Riot decide to buff champions who needed it in their kit for burst and champions who were using it to burst when they weren't decide were left as is.

In this case, RFG+SS is giving some champions too much safety and wave clear that is on par, if better than many AP champions. I'm not talking about every ADC but it's clearly too much.

Again, it's one thing when the champion has that by design, IE trist small aoe burst after she kills a minion, or sivir, but seeing a Cait pretty much AA a oncoming minion to the point that it's more reliable then many AP champions is clearly not healthy.

10 fps1 votes

You are forgetting though, that unlike shiv, you don't have to wait for stacks for the AoE damage. Ravenous hydra procs AoE damage on every autoattack and the effect actually has range (350 for passive, 400 for active).

You are being biased. You have a problem with ADCs covering up a weakness with items but you are totally okay with bruisers doing the same and their item does it a lot better than Shiv.

And who said that ADCs were meant to have poor wave clear? You use Tristana as an example but that champion was made to waveclear hence her passive. Jinx is also the same and Sivir is the queen of waveclear ADCs. The only ADCs that comes to mind that have poor waveclear is Ezreal and Vayne. All the other ADCs have AoE abilities that can help them waveclear.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by xJLx MCHammer

Turrets need to ramp up damage faster
Gameplay67 comments
137
votes
Watching Fiora in LCS
Gameplay126 comments
116
votes
There is a good reason why AD are crowding out AP champions in mid lane
Gameplay117 comments
115
votes
It feels like everyone does too much damage
Gameplay78 comments
113
votes
It’s unhealthy when Mid is dominated by one class of champions
Gameplay82 comments
102
votes
"Sustained Burst Damage"
Gameplay129 comments
101
votes