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Ludens and Nashors need to swap Movespeed and CDR

Maikal··33 votes·1,919 views

  • Ludens has movespeed which synergizes with running around to charge proc. Cool. But there are NO items that offer just cooldown reduction and AP without the mana regen (or attack speed) which a lot of champions don't need. And wouldn't cdr synergize with the ludens passive better than the move speed? If luden's is going to get it's ap nerfed, it should still be given cdr instead of move speed so that it actually has a relevant place in the game. Maybe nerf the AP down to 80 if the cdr is too strong.

  • Nashors on the other hand does have the cdr. But how does that make sense? It's an item that encourages auto attacking. What synergizes with auto attackers? Move speed (Although what doesn't move speed synergize with? Come on main it makes sense on nashors though). Nashors could basically be an ap version of zephyr minus the tenacity.

  • A champion that may be hurt by this change is Kayle, as she'd need to find another source of cdr for her ult and to have 100% up time on her E. However, if this change were implemented, then perhaps they could give Kayle some power back to compensate via more damage or making E decrease in cooldown with rank.

Thoughts? It just makes way more sense in my opinion for nashors to have movespeed and ludens cooldown reduction, as it'd finally offer a cdr source for champions that aren't mana based and it'd make luden's an appealing option after the AP gets nerfed as it has on the PBE.

37 Comments

ProfDrDeath14 votes

Riot should not give AP champions access to 20% CdR items without mana involvement.

Why?

Vladimir Katarina Kennen Mordekaiser

If an AP champion doesn't use mana, CdR is much more impactful a stat, as it is the only thing affecting your casting gating. And if you use mana, you'd need to compensate for the increased mana consumption with more frequent casts, anyway.

Fadedpf1 votes

Basically this. When they nerfed ludens they should have made it gain less stacks from mobility. Ahri Katarina Leblanc LOL FULL STACKS AGAIN

ElJanitorFrank5 votes

Noooo thank you. That would make Luden's Echo a must buy on pretty much any AP champion with decent scaling. If they didn't buy it before, there'd be almost no reason to not buy it now.

I completely agree, we don't have enough diversity when it comes to cooldown reduction and AP items, but giving the Luden's a buff is not what we need.

Ser Garland3 votes

Nashors is essentially made for kayle. A champion who needs that CDR and attack speed. Nuff said.

jDVL20eCYs1 votes

indeed.

Samflash31 votes

Then make it an item that only Kayle can buy.

. . . .

The Trent1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ser Garland,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xj8REny6,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-06-24T19:56:44.532+0000)

Nashors is essentially made for kayle. A champion who needs that CDR and attack speed. Nuff said.

why have a item that is only made for one champion? Kayle needs some changes anyways.

Partholonian1 votes

It isn't literally for one champion, there are other magic autoattackers. Although a lot of them are considered weak in the current meta.

Mandang03 votes

I really like this idea! Credit to you for coming up with something out of left field that makes a ton of sense.

straight4free2 votes

Firstly, Nashor's does give AP and CDR without mana regen?

Second, it is intentional not to give manaless champions CDR + AP from many sources without dead stats. Those items would be permanently picked and affect the balance of the champion.

Also, CDR on Luden's would make it even more mandatory than it already is on many mages.

Maikal1 votes

Riot wants to nerf Luden's, and are currently making it give 20 less AP in exchange for 3% more move speed on the PBE. Really though, the movespeed on luden's is just a nice stat to have rather than something than actual utility that makes it worth getting.

If the cdr is too strong, they could even just nerf Ludens to 80 AP and it'd still be nice. Champions could exchange the mana regen for the Ludens passive essentially. And although Nashor's does have AP and CDR, you also put a ton of gold into attack speed which synergizes with very few champions, mainly just those with on hit effects/procs, which is why the item is so expensive.

straight4free2 votes

{quoted}

Riot wants to nerf Luden's, and are currently making it give 20 less AP in exchange for 3% more move speed on the PBE. Really though, the movespeed on luden's is just a nice stat to have rather than something than actual utility that makes it worth getting.

If the cdr is too strong, they could even just nerf Ludens to 80 AP and it'd still be nice. Champions could exchange the mana regen for the Ludens passive essentially. And although Nashor's does have AP and CDR, you also put a ton of gold into attack speed which synergizes with very few champions, mainly just those with on hit effects/procs, which is why the item is so expensive.

Again, for good reason.

Katarina specifically would be an absolute monster if Luden's gave CDR. No thanks.

Terchio1 votes

Katarina ... eh, not so much. Her passive makes her burst instagib anyways, as long as one cycle does you in.

However, Luden is not supposed to be an all-in-one item, giving everything you need, plus a boost of damage on top for free, though that's how it's acting. It needs the AP drop, it needs to keep the CDR off, but it really should drop its movement speed instead of add it on... Why is that item getting the highest movement speed boost tied with Zephyr? We do know that Zephyr is far more niche than a burst + burst item, right? Why all that utility for Luden's? That's what I don't get.

straight4free1 votes

{quoted}

Katarina ... eh, not so much. Her passive makes her burst instagib anyways, as long as one cycle does you in.

However, Luden is not supposed to be an all-in-one item, giving everything you need, plus a boost of damage on top for free, though that's how it's acting. It needs the AP drop, it needs to keep the CDR off, but it really should drop its movement speed instead of add it on... Why is that item getting the highest movement speed boost tied with Zephyr? We do know that Zephyr is far more niche than a burst + burst item, right? Why all that utility for Luden's? That's what I don't get.

Kat doesn't only fight in teamfights. CDR on an item that is already mandatory will make her laning stronger. If her laning gets stronger her weakness becomes diluted and she would need nerfs, without question.

Risurin2 votes

{quoted}

  • Ludens has movespeed which synergizes with running around to charge proc. Cool. But there are NO items that offer just cooldown reduction and AP without the mana regen (or attack speed) which a lot of champions don't need. And wouldn't cdr synergize with the ludens passive better than the move speed? If luden's is going to get it's ap nerfed, it should still be given cdr instead of move speed so that it actually has a relevant place in the game. Maybe nerf the AP down to 80 if the cdr is too strong.

  • Nashors on the other hand does have the cdr. But how does that make sense? It's an item that encourages auto attacking. What synergizes with auto attackers? Move speed (Although what doesn't move speed synergize with? Come on main it makes sense on nashors though). Nashors could basically be an ap version of zephyr minus the tenacity.

  • A champion that may be hurt by this change is Kayle, as she'd need to find another source of cdr for her ult and to have 100% up time on her E. However, if this change were implemented, then perhaps they could give Kayle some power back to compensate via more damage or making E decrease in cooldown with rank.

Thoughts? It just makes way more sense in my opinion for nashors to have movespeed and ludens cooldown reduction, as it'd finally offer a cdr source for champions that aren't mana based and it'd make luden's an appealing option after the AP gets nerfed as it has on the PBE.

  1. item 3152 has cdr has ap doesnt have mana regen (or attack speed). and technically item 3060 and item 3025 lol. I dont see why luden, out of all item should be changed ? furthermore if you need cdr without mana regen, may i suggest cdr boots ? even on spells casters, sometimes 15% cdr is better then 15 magic pen and its cheaper anyway.

  2. item 3115 champions that build it, usually can get a lot from its cdr. You acknowledge one of the champion that would be affected by this change, but in counter part i would like to know what are you trying to improve with these changes ?

I dont understand what you are trying to do with those changes? specially since you already mention buffing kayle to compensate, this change doesnt start right, as it creates a problem without clearly solving one in particular ?

Terchio2 votes

Ludens has movespeed which synergizes with running around to charge proc. Cool. But there are NO items that offer just cooldown reduction and AP without the mana regen (or attack speed) which a lot of champions don't need.

AP + Mana Regen + CDR items: item 3165 item 3504 item 3174

AP + Attack Speed + CDR items: item 3115

AP + CDR, not Mana Regen/Attack speed: item 3023 item 3060 item 3152 and all Runeglaive items

No AP + CDR items? I don't follow...

And wouldn't cdr synergize with the ludens passive better than the move speed?

No, you most certainly do not proc Luden's only every 10 spellcasts, or even close to it. Most champs do it easily every cycle, as they run around waiting for it to return. Ryze and Cassiopeia are basically the only exceptions to this, but even they rely on being far too sticky to use it as a typical mage.

The funny thing about the Luden's nerf was that they actually thought dropping to 10 charges per spellcast did anything at all beside maybe delaying combos by 30 movement charges, which isn't much at all while waiting for cooldowns anyway.

Nashors on the other hand does have the cdr. But how does that make sense? It's an item that encourages auto attacking. What synergizes with auto attackers? Move speed (Although what doesn't move speed synergize with? Come on main it makes sense on nashors though). Nashors could basically be an ap version of zephyr minus the tenacity.

Generally, Nashor's is allowed to have conflicting mechanics like Attack Speed and Cooldown Reduction because no one does use them together properly. It allows such items to be more gold efficient than their non-hybrid counterparts. Somewhere down the road, however, the hybrid fantasy got lost, and this item (along with Guinsoo) kept falling further and further behind.

These items are supposed to be strong early items which heavily help champions right away, but then after that grab, choices need to be made to make them viable into lategame. Superstacking stats is not as viable on anyone who starts hybrid, such as AD + Armor Pen + Crit + AS, or AP + MPen + CDR. The early power is supposed to make up for the late issues, but that hasn't been the case in a very long time.

A champion that may be hurt by this change is Kayle, as she'd need to find another source of cdr for her ult and to have 100% up time on her E. However, if this change were implemented, then perhaps they could give Kayle some power back to compensate via more damage or making E decrease in cooldown with rank.

Well, she could always use one of the other numerous CDR + AP items available. She may even work better with the Mana Regen, as her W really weighs down her mana expendatures.

And overall on Luden's, that item is a cancer because it is made to replace a cancer. Dropping MS isn't going to do the trick, as it's imitating the Lich Bane which dropped heavily on its stackability many patches ago. Luden's may not have the potential damage of Lich Bane, but the higher reliability on spellcasters as well as the obscenely high AP tagging along is what makes this item particularly a cancer. Highest AP in the game plus free damage on top of it was never going to be healthy. Just adding CDR like Deathfire Grasp had won't make any difference on a burst champion when running is a more effective charging mechanism anyways.

Iron IV dude1 votes

{quoted}

No AP + CDR items? I don't follow...

item 3134 item 3067 item 3071 item 3508 item 3024 item 3401 item 3110 item 3190 item 3056 item 3065 item 3158

Onegarion1 votes

Pretty sure he means there aren't any AP +CDR. Its a question after he gives OP the items that have the stat combinations he says aren't around.

Terchio1 votes

... I don't follow. Why are you listing CDR items without AP?

Widder881 votes

Nashors Tooth need an Amplifying Tome added to the recipe like Athenes/Morellos.

10% CDR on the item is fine. 20% is maybe too much sometimes. Maybe exchange Stinger with Recurve Bow, and make the on hit effect stronger. But Nashors Tooth as it is would be fine with a recipe change.

BakedLotion1 votes

{quoted}

Nashors Tooth need an Amplifying Tome added to the recipe like Athenes/Morellos.

10% CDR on the item is fine. 20% is maybe too much sometimes. Maybe exchange Stinger with Recurve Bow, and make the on hit effect stronger. But Nashors Tooth as it is would be fine with a recipe change.

Nashors does have an amp tome

Widder881 votes

{quoted}

Nashors does have an amp tome

It is item 3108 + item 3101

Morellos and Athenes will be item 3108 + item 3114 + item 1052 item 3108 + item 3028 + item 1052 after next patch.

But they forgot Nashors Tooth. It will be buffed to 80 AP, but you have to wait for 2180 Gold after Fiendish codex to get these 50 additional AP. That sucks hard.

Partholonian1 votes

Unless you actually had 3 open slots you'd probably have to skip the amp tome even if it was in the recipe, though. And if you're building up to Nashor's at all you presumably don't mind building some AS and CDR, anyway.

Not that I would object to another tome being added to the recipe, but it's not like you're not getting any useful stats between Codex and the completed Nashor's, either.

TotalJerk1 votes

It was a deliberate choice not to put CDR on Luden's

What Is Smite1 votes

Nashor's is viewed as more of a Hybrid AP item for champions who weave in AA's with their abilites while they also make use of something like lich bane, what I think is that Riot imaged this item for: Kayle, Twisted Fate, Diana, AP Ezreal, Full AP Sona, Teemo, and maybe Ekko

Solidair31 votes

I am going to have to disagree, if only because kayle really likes that CDR on nashor's

Slamurai Jack1 votes

You realize that if Ludens gave 20% CDR, every single mana using mages first 2 items would be item 3174 item 3285 without exception. 40% CDR on mages is an enormous spike in power and as it stands now, they need to make significant sacrifices in order to get that 40%, either through giving up magic pen boots for CDR ones, running CDR per level glyphs instead of MR or AP, or by building both Morellos and Athenes and giving up a different AP item.

Lajinn51 votes

The last thing Luden's needs is buffs

SoMNia1 votes

What? Whom would this help? Vladimir? item 3285 is the mage equivalent of item 3087. It gives movespeed, charges when moving, and makes your spells stronger. That's its whole thing. I could see it granting CDR as well, just like Shiv grants attack speed, but they just nerfed its casting charge, unfortunately.

As for item 3115, I suppose if you replaced item 3108 with item 3113 in its build path and gave it 10% CDR and some movespeed, it really would be an AP Zephyr, but do we need one of those? On that note, why does Zephyr provide no movespeed in its buildpath, but jump to a whopping 10% when completed?

If you want 80 AP and 20% CDR, just build item 3165 anyway. It's pretty cheap, and even without the mana regen and the passive, it's still gold-efficient. And with every new champ lately having some form of healing, grievous wounds is pretty useful.

Partholonian1 votes

{quoted}

On that note, why does Zephyr provide no movespeed in its buildpath, but jump to a whopping 10% when completed?

Because there aren't many AD/movespeed items for it to build from? It has no crit so it can't build from Zeal (which has plenty of other options anyway) and its movespeed is constant and not a proc so Phage is out (and has non-matching stats).

SoMNia1 votes

It was more of a rhetorical question. Zephyr's most outstanding features (being the only way to build tenacity without boots, and the single largest percent movespeed bonus of any item) are not granted in any amount until the item is completed, which is frequently just not a good design unless we're talking about unique passives (ITT: Luden's Echo). This is why Bami's Cinder exists, why almost nobody ever builds Essence Reaver, and why the new Black Cleaver is in an awkward place in spite of being a very good item. No, not every buildpath has to be smooth, and sometimes certain bonuses need to be delayed. There are reasons for the Cleaver to be awkward, but Zephyr? Nothing it does is unique/otherwise unavailable, nor is it particularly broken if you get it early — indeed, all of it CAN be had earlier by building other items. Multiple other items, though. A good buildpath for the specific combination of stats that Zephyr provides just doesn't exist.

LordKentravyon1 votes

No. That would devastate item 3115 Azir

Also the other stuff people said about mana, and resourceless abuse

BodyByDave1 votes

No thanks. This makes luden's stronger for poke champions (whom it is not for) and weaker for assassins in most cases (target audience).

AP CDR choices for people that don't give a crap about mana: item 3060 item 3152 item 3023. These will all be pretty nice too after the AP changes.

And item 3065 is damn near good on every single character in the game.

Consider taking more CDR on your runes if you really just want raw ap items and continue on to buy all of the NLR parts.

Are1 votes

Actually, the change would be helpful to assassins. Now that every mage gets MS, it's harder to catch up to them/catch them out. I don't particularly enjoy the 10% MS on Ludens

Drunk Rummate1 votes

Ludens would have to cost 4500 gold if it came with 20% CDR instead of 7% movespeed.

Partholonian1 votes

Movespeed would make much less sense on Nashor's IMO; Luden's is an item that rewards you for moving.

Meep Man1 votes

Would be a cool swap, but I think it might imbalance some things. For example, Ziggs and other high poke Mages would become REALLY GOOD all of a sudden, unless Im missing something. Teemo would become even more annoying as well.

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