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"Gold gain was increased." Except for junglers......

Maikal··65 votes·3,178 views
http://puu.sh/lnhTW.png

Before doing all 6 camps with your tier 2 jungle item gave a total of 621 gold (409 from your 4 non-buff camps) because you got 30 bonus gold for killing large monsters (Also I don't know where you got those numbers from in the patch notes. Gromp wasn't giving 80 gold at level 1. I took a screenshot of the correct gold values from the league wiki. Confirm them by viewing past twitch broadcasts or youtube vids before the preseason if you wish.).

Now doing all 6 jungle camps gives 568 gold (372 from your 4 non-buff camps). What the fuck. Almost every item got an increase in price, and core items on junglers were gutted with absurd cost increases. How are junglers supposed to hit their item power spikes unless they're snowballing? Where is our increased gold gain? From what I can tell, the only increased gold we're getting is from ambient gold, taxing our laners, and a little more from towers. Why do laners get an increase in gold from their minions and we get a decrease from our jungle monsters?

Put back the +30 gold passive on jungle items or actually increase the gold gain. This preseason is ridiculous. We're gaining 37 gold less for doing 4 camps, 53 gold less for doing 4 + buffs, and 73 gold less for adding both scuttle crabs to that. We're losing 2 - 3 minions worth of gold every clear, that's ridiculous.

How many clears do junglers actually do in the average game? I could see this leading to 300 - 500 less gold/game than you're supposed to get compared to last season even though jungle gold was meant to be increased as minion gold was to compensate for item cost increases.

EDIT: This was posted in patch 5.22, preaseason 6 start. Here are the patch 5.22 notes for reference as to what they thought jg monsters were worth and what they're actually worth: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-522-notes#patch-jungle-tuning

58 Comments

redniwediS9 votes

The jungle was made easier and was specifically not boosted in gold to force junglers to gank more. This also makes counter jungling stronger.

I don't necessarily agree with it, but I believe this is their idea behind it.

RisenDarkKnight19 votes

The jungler was not made easier. Watch any high elo jungler streamer or just try to jungle any low sustain jungler. I've seen so many executes this season. The first clear hurst a lot more this patch. The second and after are fine because of the OP item 2032 , but that just means that junglers are another 250 gold behind in the early game.

redniwediS1 votes

Since so many people seem to have missed it I'll say it again; I believe what I said is what Riot thinks. It's not what I think.

Maikal2 votes

I doubt that that was their intention. If it was, that's what they would've said. Instead, their explaination in the patch notes was that they intended on buffing the gold generation accessible from the jungle and making the jungle easier, and they failed at both entirely.

Also devourer junglers are much slower to stack due to the increased cost and lowered gold gain. They have much less time to spend time ganking now, unless those ganks will allow your team to snowball and then you can just gain complete control over the river/enemy jungle.

If their hidden intention was to make junglers more interactive early game, they failed utterly at that too. I believe they also acknowledged in one of their patch notes videos that they realize that junglers won't be able to pressure/gank as early due to the changes.

redniwediS1 votes

I believe they did say that...

Kuroi862 votes

The first clear hurst a lot more this patch.

Sounds like a bug, Krugs and Gromp got damage nerfs, the rest of the jungle got hp/ar nerfs. The jungle was meant to be made easier, if there's any problem it might be the changes to potions.

Maikal3 votes

Krugs and gromp did get damage nerfs, true. However, the new hunter's machete and hunter's talisman offer much less sustain individually than the previous hunter machete. That, coupled with the refillable potion only offering 200 total health compared to the 450 that 3 normal pots give (Obviously you can still just get the 3 normal pots, but it is still a rough clear because those jungle item nerfs were extremely harsh. Plus, junglers who can't start refillable potion are put at a disadvantage because they'll have to spend more gold on pots on subsequent recalls.)

Darkwind1 votes

Plus, defensive masteries are not as good for the early jungle as last patch.

magic pole1 votes

well, i asked myself if i really need the hunter's potion. it costs 150+250 = 400g = 8 health pots.

lots of junglers i can get away with buying health pots only for my first back. So i end up buying 3+ maybe 3-4 more. still cheaper than hunter's and gets me where I'm going. although the hunter's is kinda nice later on to stay topped off but if i can get away without it, i will.

that said i agree with you. jungle items are also more expensive, and warrior is nerfed imo. the old jungle items were a power spike. Lee sin or vi just bought warrior? watch out. now by the time they get that first item, laners have 1-2 items and the item barely keeps them relevant.

i don't really call jungle like i used to, but i still will if no one wants it. probably gonna start trying early junglers and just gank nonstop. also changed most of my rune pages to flat runes. i used to prefer scaling :/

RisenDarkKnight1 votes

Try playing any jungler with mediocre-bad clears. You'll see it yourself you take way more damage your first clear. Obviously champs like Warwick and Fiddlesticks are still fine, but anyone with low sustain get's wrecked now until they get item 2032 .

Weasel Kensei3 votes

{quoted}

Try playing any jungler with mediocre-bad clears. You'll see it yourself you take way more damage your first clear. Obviously champs like Warwick and Fiddlesticks are still fine, but anyone with low sustain get's wrecked now until they get item 2032 .

Its true, WW isnt the fastest clearer out there, but he can clear all 6 camps still with 3 pots and a machete, heal up on a scuttle crab, and gank before backing. Because he dosnt back, he can get all that done in about the same time as a low sustain jungle champ who had to back after 3 (sometimes 2) camps and walk back out again.

The worst is when your derp team dosnt leash you and you have to solo a camp with these new jungle items, then you may not have enough health + potions to clear a red/blue buff camp.

Even WW is going to be clearing with low health with no leash. This also means that leashing is reinforced meta by the balance team, as opposed to giving your jg a head-start, its basically expected.

I honestly dont get all these people who straight up think and say "The jungle is easier now" when that isnt true. Its more like if I gave you a 50 lb. sack of sand to carry, then reduced the weight to 25 lb. but took your sack away... yes you have less weight to carry, but I took away the tool that made carrying it quick and more manageable. That is what has happened to junglers, they took our tool away... or more accurately, they divided it up and made it more expensive.

junglerboy161 votes

Actually, the main changes are in the masteries.

There are no more flat armor, flat health, flat HP regen, or easily accessible sustain or damage boosts in the mastery trees.

Riot removed several core jungling masteries that made clearing much safer, such as recovery (flat regen, very strong early on), Toughness (at least as an easily accessible tier one mastery), Bladed armor (1% current health per second when attacked is about 10-20 DPS to most monsters early on, which is significant) Veteran's scars (the old flat health version, much stronger early game than % health), Perseverance (this one is slightly debatable and rather math reliant, mostly depending on how strong your early base regen is converse to your health and the amount of healing you could gain. This is arguably weaker early game on most champs), Reinforced armor (5 whole points of armor at level 1, much better than any % buff early game), Second wind (very strong synergy with Perseverance, new perseverance is kind of like this, but again, weak until later on), and then these last two which are of debatable strength comparatively speaking: Savagery (requires points in a whole different tree but is stronger than before) and Feast (no longer grants mana, and depending on your clear speed may give more or less health).

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

I've not been having any issues on my jungle clears. Though, that may be because I start with 3 Health Potions instead of Refillable Potion.

I find that after I finish my first clear and purchase my jungle upgrade (Skrimisher's Sabre, Stalker's Blade, or Tracker's Knife), I don't have sustain issues anymore.

Tribbles Foxfolk1 votes

{quoted}

The jungler was not made easier. Watch any high elo jungler streamer or just try to jungle any low sustain jungler. I've seen so many executes this season. The first clear hurst a lot more this patch. The second and after are fine because of the OP item 2032 , but that just means that junglers are another 250 gold behind in the early game.

Meanwhile, Kog'Maw with Krugs buff, Elise with just Q, and pretty much every jungler WITH A BRAIN laughs in your face and renders your point relatively negated.

Seriously, I've been able to do BLUE BUFF AT LEVEL 2 RIGHT AFTER GROMP AS ELISE AND WALK AWAY WITH OVER 60% HEALTH. No health pots used.

I'm gonna be honest: The jungle downgrade (Less strong, slightly reduced rewards. SLIGHTLY.) is not significant at all. In fact, it's probably POSITIVE! Off-meta junglers can be played more than in Season 5 (where jungle diversity was neutered and drained until it was mainly Lee Sin, a few tanks, and a couple Bruisers) and it's so much fun.

Downvote me if you want, but the jungle's fine and people are just SEVERELY overreacting about not being able to get 6 items before a 21/0 midlaner with 300 farm purely through AFKing in the jungle. (I don't even build Hunter's Potion, btw, waste of like 400-500 gold for so little actual sustain. 2 or 3 Health Pots automatically trashes Hunter's Pot.)

RisenDarkKnight2 votes

Elise is one of the strongest early junglers with the most sustain. You realize she heals with every auto attack in spider form and has a strong attack speed boost, right? Saying you are able to clear the jungle with a lot of health as Elise is like saying you can clear the jungle as Fiddlesticks/Warwick. Tank junglers who don't run any attack speed runes can't make nearly as good use of the krug buff. They are still fine because of item 2032 , but saying they didn't get their first clear nerfed is ridiculous.

Daedalus8717 votes

Not to mention that jungle items cost more.

NostolgicSkies3 votes

{quoted}

Not to mention that jungle items cost more.

as an evelyn jungler i stopped buying runeglaive cause of its cost increase and started going straight for licbane cause it seems to be more worthwhile now. i no longer upgrade jungle item past its first upgrade cause doing so seems to put you farther behind and seems to making ganking harder then if u just upgrade once and then build as though u where in a lane.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

as an evelyn jungler i stopped buying runeglaive cause of its cost increase and started going straight for licbane cause it seems to be more worthwhile now. i no longer upgrade jungle item past its first upgrade cause doing so seems to put you farther behind and seems to making ganking harder then if u just upgrade once and then build as though u where in a lane.

As a Diamond Evelynn jungle, I think you might be on to something... Runeglaive seems weaker now.

I'll give Lichbane a shot.

KingKong23502 votes

As a silver Evelynn jungler, my team will keep asking me to build cinder hulk

ImNotTicklsh4 votes

From my run through the new jungle I noticed a couple things, sustain is insane now after your first back. You get one of those hunter pots and you just end up running out of jungle to farm because of how quickly and easily it is. The Tiamat change hurt me a lot because I like to go shaco with a split push build, and it took me forever to finish my jungle item. BUT what I did take into account and what i did notice was that if my team didn't have every single lane pushed up to the enemy towers, because I am always at full hp near or full mana, this new jungle and items allows you to CONSTANTLY be ganking. And I think thats what they were going for here. You are either ganking or able to invade into the enemy jg and duel them, all of a sudden I felt like I was missing out on farm being in my own jungle because everything was dead.. And so I think the idea is that in a way you are forced to gank and counter jg more or else your farm will suffer.

And also thinking through that it would make sense seeing they are trying to speed the game up a bit, if your jungler never really NEEDS to back because of health (until later game) they're able to be ganking all the time which would (in theory) snowball those lanes, making those towers go down faster, making the minions stronger (cant remember if thats in effect yet), giving you more opportunity to go for dragons and rift heralds, it just makes the jungler have to branch out more rather then afk farm imo.

BluePolarizer2 votes

that's only after the first clear. the first clear is EXTREMELY painful.

ImNotTicklsh1 votes

I think that largely depends on who you are/did you take the mana regen rather than the machete? I took the mana regen and could not finish my first clear, but another go around I took machete and was just fine. I do think it does seem like it is a bit more painful, but not unbearably so. I did experience a couple games in which our jungler got executed 3 separate times though.. But once again, he took the mana item vs the machete.

BluePolarizer1 votes

it also depends on who you play. tanky AD or AP casters who rely on mana are the worst off. Those with AS steroids are much better off.

junglerboy163 votes

They passively boosted the gold income of the two lowest earning members of each team by 2(+0.1xadditional minutes) starting at 12 minutes.

What this does for the average jungler is two-fold:

  • You usually have noticeably less gold/items than laners early game (buff to power farmers who are just trying to scale quickly off of exp, and also to gankers whose main income is divided between camps and kills/assists)

  • By mid to late game, the jungler will tend to catch up pretty significantly in gold (just the passive gold I mentioned gives 313.2 extra gold at the 30 minute mark, additionally, due to the way bounties work now, even if you don't assist a kill, there is still a chance you get global shutdown gold)

Basically, Riot wants there to be fewer item dependent carries in the jungle, or the ones that are still used are intended to have noticeably lower impact in the early phases of the game. Other major points of interest that nobody seems to have noticed:

  • Junglers no longer pay a "ward tax" outside the occasional pink. This lifts a pretty noticeable burden on gold flow from junglers since many of them were the main warding teammate other than the support.

  • Jungler's aren't necessarily required to pay the "potion tax" either. With the addition of Hunter's Potion (it has excellent sustain) jungler's almost never have to back for pots, or spend gold on pots to begin with. This means more time out there farming and less time spending gold. Again, this change is an indirect nerf to early game for junglers, while being a buff to them after their (ideally) second back when they pick up an upgraded Hunter's potion and some boots.

  • Laners have more restricted sustain than before. They are forced to take either a refillable of some sort (which has limited sustain capabilities in lane, leading to more time spent backing) or they use normal pots (which are proportionally more expensive than before and can slow down a build pretty noticeably).

I think the true problem that junglers face right now is that games are so short and snowbally that the mid-late game benefits Riot has created for them don't have a chance to be realized in-game.

BluePolarizer2 votes

the jungle items now are 30-40% less gold efficient than last season, meaning ~400-500 gold less efficient. Ambient gold increase is ~300 gold at 20 minutes. Your gold income is ~180 less per clear. Simply by buying a smite upgrade you are 1000 gold behind laners in combat stats. Ganking a lane is literally like trying to aggressively fight as a 0-3.

junglerboy161 votes

Every other item is also drastically less gold efficient, your point is moot.

Your gold per clear is also not nearly as short changed as you claim. Stop hyperbolizing.

BluePolarizer1 votes

no it isn't. A diamond jungler made a spreadsheet of all item efficiencies in the game; jungle items are FAR less gold efficient than laner counterparts. you also lose on net 25 gold per camp due to the smite upgrade being more expensive and losing the 30 gold per large monster; with 6 camps + scuttle that's 175 gold.

junglerboy161 votes

Yeah, 6 camps. An average clear is only 4 camps, maybe 1 scuttle crab, since buffs are much slower to respawn and scuttle crabs are usually pretty contested while also having a long respawn. I already acknowledged that the early game is more gold restricted for junglers.

Again, I never said that the other items were nerfed equally, I just said you are trying to compare -30 to 40% gold efficiency as if the laners suffered no efficiency drop, where in reality the net difference in gold efficiency comparing junglers to laners is closer to -10-15%. You haven't taken into account the fact that many finished tier laner items sat at around +120% gold efficiency, while most (if not all) jungle items were either at or below 100%. Also, Junglers only buy one jungle item, after which they share the exact same item pool as any laner, and the way the bonus GP10 works is specifically to counteract that.

P.S. I would love it if you linked that spread sheet you're mentioning, because I'd love to compare notes with it, do some fact checking, etc.

BluePolarizer1 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/rU1xzdLK-jungle-items-are-now-extremely-gold-inefficient-and-are-best-skipped-on-most-champs

junglerboy161 votes

Ok, so the very first thing I'm noticing about the jungle items as he has them is this: The main cost inefficiency is tied directly to the tier two jungle upgrade (be it stalkers, skirmishers, or trackers). Outside of the base cost, the enchantment costs are actually all within reason.

Warrior is the closest to cost effective because it offers raw stats, and it's gold efficiency is parallel to that of most completed items in the new season. In fact, Warrior on its own has a gold efficiency of over 150%, which is exceptionally high this season, especially for an item without any sort of stacking based passive such as Muramana or Rageblade.

The other three enchantments have proportionally lower gold value because he is only accounting for the value of base stats. Cinderhulk's main strength comes from it's passives (AoE DPS and % HP). Runeglaive's main cost is centered in the Sheen proc/AoE/Mana refund. Devourer has always been super cost inefficient based on stats, but you and I both know that it is really strong because of the on-hit and the phantom hit passive, not the base AS.

For comparison, Void staff, which received no changes is less gold efficient than any of the jungle enchantments. In fact, the majority of items match the gold efficiency of the jungle enchantments, and only a slight handful of non-component items hit or exceed the 100% gold efficiency mark, most of which lack a meaningful passive or are based specifically on windows of extreme strength and weakness (such as Rageblade or Maw of Malmortius).

The majority of the gold inefficiency that you see from jungle items is tied directly to the abstract manifestation of the stats that are monster-combat specific (i.e. mp5 in the jungle, lifesteal vs monsters, on-hit life sap over time, bonus exp) which do not have a set gold value that is independently calculable.

Once you realize this, you can better approach the issues if any that junglers face at the moment.

BluePolarizer1 votes

here's the problem: the smite upgrades marginally help you gank, but in general, provide minimal (AKA near zero) combat stats other than red smite. This sets you 1000 gold behind the laners. But why should you do that when you can spend the 800 gold or so that you get from your first clear for a Vamp Scepter, Amp Tome + Boots, Longsword + Cloth Armor, Boots + Cloth Armor + Pots, etc. that directly help you in combat AKA help you both for clearing AND for fighting other champs?

You cannot calculate the cost of the jungle items independent of the smite upgrade because you have other options, such as not upgrading smite.

junglerboy161 votes

My point is that the issue with upgrading your base jungle item is nothing new (it's plagued us since they introduced spirit stone really) but you're using it for the crux of your argument on how junglers got short changed this season.

I'm not saying I like it, I'm just saying that it's nothing new or extreme.

BluePolarizer1 votes

the difference is, last season the smite upgrades were 350 gold. Now they are 700 gold. Season 4 jungle items were 2000 gold. Season 5 jungle items were also about the same. This season they're a whopping 2600+ gold.

qetzel1 votes

You could argue that the amount junglers have to spend on their own items is higher because they aren't spending vast quantities (more than any role other than support) on wards now.

Maikal1 votes

Not really because riot's very reason for those vision changes were because people weren't investing vast quantities of gold into wards. Cba to go look at their statistics again, but it was something like 10% of players buy 2 wards. Plus this is solo queue, not competitive. Junglers aren't forced to buy sightstones. And they didn't just increase the cost of all items. They decreased your gold income, and a lot of the items you need to build have recipe costs of 1k+ so it's not just that you need to invest more gold into your items, you're not even getting stats for prolonged periods of time until you can finish your item and inefficient recalls. It's a triple nerf, no gold investment into wards justifies this by any stretch of the imagination.

qetzel1 votes

Exactly the opposite. Taken from the patch notes "When vision is in an easily acquired consumable state, a few things tend to happen. For starters, vision becomes an arms race due to the inherent power of map knowledge - making the appropriate answer to 'how many wards should we have' universally 'as many as you can, always'. This means that, executed optimally, an entire team's excess gold income (or primary income, if you're a Jungler or a Support) is funneled into keeping up as much vision as possible at all times.

This means decision making around the questions 'when is the right time to ward?' and 'where is the right place to ward?' is thrown out in favor of sheer throughput. By removing 'safe' vision from the map (invisible wards) and placing the other vision resources on meaningful cooldowns, teams will have to think a lot more about where they light up the map, rather than ward coverage being a function of team gold advantage."

Well. Not exactly the opposite. The outcome of the change is that junglers and supports t the top levels of play will no longer have to spend their primary gold income on warding.

BluePolarizer1 votes

in my climb to s5, even in plat 1 and playing against diamond 5's it's usually that mid and jungle buy 1-2 pinks and 2-3 green wards per game, then upgrade their trinkets. Now I don't even have the option of buying green wards.

pripustas1 votes

Seems like Riot accounted only for "meta" junglers when they made those changes. Junglers like Lee Sin, Reksai, Elise, Master Yi, Shyvana get their power spikes without any items, so it's "kind of" ok for them to get their items later. But most other junglers are now complete shit, because they can't do 3 camps and buy trailblazers anymore. They have to do 3 camps and go buy hunters potion if they want to stay in the game. We get less gold now, jungler (and other) items are more expensive, and starting items are shit right now. I can do 3 camps with Wukong with a item 1041 item 2031 if I do the crab after blue to regen some health back. Without it, I get executed or finish wolves with 20health, so if enemy knows that he can just come being level 2 and get a kill or a flash or both.

Saphixia1 votes

"Junglers are in a pretty good spot right now, there is actually quite a bit of diversity. ADC's are the same but... wait... ITEMS ADCS UNDERPOWERED ITEMS BUFFS ADCS FUCK ALL THE JUNGLERS" -Rito Basically im a jungler main and so far i have had success with Warwick Tryndamere Jax Sion Malphite (Havent played everyone yet) But id like to say these are Carrys and Tanks (I also had some success with corki which i was surprised about

Yfrappefort1 votes

I find myself having more trouble clearing the jungle as Nautilus now.

Also, the removal of trailblaizer did not help. Really loved it for fast clears.

Tanks junglers took a hit...again...

The situation feel even worse then in preseason 5...

DREADN0UGHT1 votes

I found that jungling with rek'sai is quite the same tbh. But then again how can u not clear izi with a passive like that. Krugs then red into wolves, then clear bot scuttle and head for mid or bot gank ezpz.

On the other hand, I can't even jungle as j4 anymore. Too painful...

Restless Slumber1 votes

I think that it's to influence snowballing via ganking. It emphasizes team play rather than farming all day 24/7. Don't get me wrong, Udyr is one of my favorite champs, but playing him as a farm jungler nowadays isn't going to work unless you are very fast with your thinking, weaving in ganks between each camp to maximize your snowball.

Maikal1 votes

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