What if Alistar's E healed minions more and champs less?

Hyrum Graff·Jun 10, 2015·3 votes·1,103 views

Alistar pulverizes his way through pro play

Here's a quote from the linked article:

Obviously, Alistar is a team fighting powerhouse, so keeping him down usually has to happen in the early stages of the game. Unfortunately [...] his laning phase is extremely safe. [...] "[Alistar has] a lot of sustain, so even poke champions can't do too well against him. It's impossible to all-in an Alistar because he has his ultimate."

I was thinking, what if we nerfed its heal on champions, but gave it a x3 multiplier for minions (or something like that)?

In line with Riot's design philosophy, this would accentuate Ali's strengths (heal up your minion wave to shove into tower) and weaknesses (susceptible to poke). In the process, it also makes Ali even more unique.

Thoughts?

19 Comments

aaronconlinJun 10, 20152 votes

item 3060 item 3512 item 2137 item 3025 You had a tower?

Stars ShaperJun 23, 20151 votes

It took me 3 seconds before falling near to death from laughter xD

S H A Y C 0Jun 10, 20151 votes

what if allistars e did something useful instead...?

Hyrum GraffJun 10, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=ToiletteOfDoom ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xff98ZJT,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-06-10T19:08:16.454+0000)

what if allistars e did something useful instead...?

Look at these numbers, in my other reply. A rank 5 minion heal of 350 (+50% AP) would be pretty crazy considering the cooldown reduces on minion death.

Drunk RummateJun 10, 20151 votes

That seems like it would be exceptionally useless after the lane phase. Minion health scales really high now since they removed resistances so as the game goes longer it would become essentially nothing more than a way to pop your passive.

Hyrum GraffJun 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That seems like it would be exceptionally useless after the lane phase. Minion health scales really high now since they removed resistances so as the game goes longer it would become essentially nothing more than a way to pop your passive.

Live values are:

Self Heal: 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 / 180 (+ 20% AP)

Ally Heal: 30 / 45 / 60 / 75 / 90 (+10% AP)

What if it were more like:

Alistar heals himself and allies by 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70 (+10% AP). When healing minions, this heal is multiplied by 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5

Restated,

Allied champion & self heal: 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70 (+10% AP)

Allied minion heal: 30 (+10% AP) / 80 (+20% AP) / 150 (+30%AP) / 240 (+40% AP) / 350 (+50% AP)

MTemptyJun 23, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xff98ZJT,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-06-10T19:17:28.327+0000)

Live values are:

What if it were more like:

Restated,

A strong teamfight support is given strong waveclear? Not something you want to see. Think, tank morgana with a little less damage and a 70% damage reduction for 6 seconds.

Hyrum GraffJun 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

A strong teamfight support is given strong waveclear? Not something you want to see. Think, tank morgana with a little less damage and a 70% damage reduction for 6 seconds.

I dunno. Morg has black shield, better pick potential, better single-target cc, and more zone control with her ult. Plus, the option of building AP to be a damage threat if she wants (which also gives her waveclear).

MTemptyJun 25, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xff98ZJT,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-25T02:31:11.606+0000)

I dunno. Morg has black shield, better pick potential, better single-target cc, and more zone control with her ult. Plus, the option of building AP to be a damage threat if she wants (which also gives her waveclear).

I don't know about better pick potential. Ali's W-q is about as good as it gets. Likewise in the field of single-target cc. Zone control, I can agree with. Her ult can really force enemy champs to deal with her. Ap morg support isn't going to get much past her third item. I'd argue Ali gets more out of a triforce with his innate tankiness than morg does building ap.

Hyrum GraffJun 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't know about better pick potential. Ali's W-q is about as good as it gets. Likewise in the field of single-target cc. Zone control, I can agree with. Her ult can really force enemy champs to deal with her. Ap morg support isn't going to get much past her third item. I'd argue Ali gets more out of a triforce with his innate tankiness than morg does building ap.

Ali w-q is a lot shorter range than morg q, rquires vision, doesn't last as long (but tenacity doesn't do as much as vs morg) and exhausts all of his cc for a couple seconds. All in all, I think Ali has nearly as good ability to make the pick itself, but morg's a better pick champ just for that last point: she can keep helping after she makes the pick, whereas ali just kinda sits there waiting on cds. Ali def has the better teamfight engage though.

Plus, Ali (like live morg) would be making a big tradeoff for his waveclear (wavebuff?): he'd have to max E instead of Q or W. And we both know how frustratingly long a 13 sec W / 9 sec Q cooldown is in a teamfight.

overall I'd hope it would give Ali a little more in the way of interesting decisions when leveling up abilities. With the numbers I proposed, his lvl 2 minion heal is a little overtuned, but it was just an example to give you an idea of what I was thinking of: a way to give a dominant teamfight champ like Ali more meaningful weaknesses (poke champs) in lane, where he is supposed to weak, while giving a buff to one of his unique but currently underwhelming sides.

MTemptyJun 26, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xff98ZJT,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-25T20:15:15.222+0000)

Ali w-q is a lot shorter range than morg q, rquires vision, doesn't last as long (but tenacity doesn't do as much as vs morg) and exhausts all of his cc for a couple seconds. All in all, I think Ali has nearly as good ability to make the pick itself, but morg's a better pick champ just for that last point: she can keep helping after she makes the pick, whereas ali just kinda sits there waiting on cds. Ali def has the better teamfight engage though.

Plus, Ali (like live morg) would be making a big tradeoff for his waveclear (wavebuff?): he'd have to max E instead of Q or W. And we both know how frustratingly long a 13 sec W / 9 sec Q cooldown is in a teamfight.

overall I'd hope it would give Ali a little more in the way of interesting decisions when leveling up abilities. With the numbers I proposed, his lvl 2 minion heal is a little overtuned, but it was just an example to give you an idea of what I was thinking of: a way to give a dominant teamfight champ like Ali more meaningful weaknesses (poke champs) in lane, where he is supposed to weak, while giving a buff to one of his unique but currently underwhelming sides.

Fair enough. I don't like the idea itself, but i like the notion. One of the more annoying things about playing Ali is the 13-14 seconds of complete uselessness, where your Q and W are down and you cant do anything other than auto attack people and pop your insignificant heal.(assuming you don't have the awesome but niche Ardent censor). It would be nice to be able to tune ali to seige builds. However, I worry that with the proposed change to heal, you actually start to win out against poke supports. Champions don't fair well against minions early on. Building a huge minion wave advantage could push them out of the bush and under their turret. You can then hard reset waves more easily and control the lane with ease.

Willahelm FulberJun 22, 20151 votes

Hey man it's been a while. I'm some guy who delightedly debates a lot of things. You may not remember me, but I hoped to ask your help on formatting posts. I'm currently into a game called "Destiny" and I feel that posts formatted like you do would be perfect for the forums over there.

Hyrum GraffJun 23, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Willahelm Fulber,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xff98ZJT,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-06-22T14:47:05.049+0000)

Hey man it's been a while. I'm some guy who delightedly debates a lot of things. You may not remember me, but I hoped to ask your help on formatting posts. I'm currently into a game called "Destiny" and I feel that posts formatted like you do would be perfect for the forums over there.

Unfortunately, I barely have enough time to play league at the moment, much less pick up another game. I'll keep in the back of my mind, if/when I'm less busy, though.

Willahelm FulberJun 25, 20151 votes

I'm not really asking you to pick up the game (honestly if you were though get the new $60 version that includes all the DLC... I spent ~$100 more than that just for 1 year of gameplay), much rather I'm hoping that you can help me assemble posts. I'm trying to be the "you" of Destiny's forums.

Hyrum GraffJun 26, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Willahelm Fulber,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xff98ZJT,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2015-06-25T23:49:13.065+0000)

I'm not really asking you to pick up the game (honestly if you were though get the new $60 version that includes all the DLC... I spent ~$100 more than that just for 1 year of gameplay), much rather I'm hoping that you can help me assemble posts. I'm trying to be the "you" of Destiny's forums.

It's not the money that bothers me, it's the time -- you can look at how much I've posted in the last few weeks compared to earlier in the year, or last summer... I haven't played league in 3 days, and barely have time to stay on top of the Boards home page, much less comment on every post in Boards Feedback like I used to -- I catch up with that over the weekend.

I'm happy to hear that I've inspired you, though. In addition to simply enjoying being a part of this community, I've also hoped I could be a role model for positive posters. :)

Wish I could help you more; if only IRL stuff weren't a thing... good luck!

Stars ShaperJun 23, 20151 votes

Siedge Cow + TP would be OP

Hyrum GraffJun 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xff98ZJT,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-06-23T10:50:48.110+0000)

Siedge Cow + TP would be OP

Maybe. Depends on the tuning. But yeah, lots of disengage + minion wave heal + damage reduction for dives is a pretty sweet combo for siege teams. I think it'd be worth, though, if in return Ali became weaker in lane.

Gare JordansJun 26, 20151 votes

Why would you nerf an average support at best when there's Thresh Morgana Annie Janna dominating the picks?

Really Alistar's only a solid pick because of his heavy peel, meaning he can keep the likes of Thresh and Blitz off his ADC. Nerf Thresh and Blitz before you even consider nerfing Alistar. If you don't do that, you'll only ever see Thresh and Blitcrank every single game because their hardest counter just got nerfed.

Hyrum GraffJun 26, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gare Jordans,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xff98ZJT,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-06-26T02:50:01.026+0000)

Why would you nerf an average support at best when there's dominating the picks?

Really Alistar's only a solid pick because of his heavy peel, meaning he can keep the likes of Thresh and Blitz off his ADC. Nerf Thresh and Blitz before you even consider nerfing Alistar. If you don't do that, you'll only ever see Thresh and Blitcrank every single game because their hardest counter just got nerfed.

These changes aren't intended to be nerfs. They're intended to be nerfs to Ali's sustain -- which shouldn't matter vs the likes of Blitz and Thresh -- coupled with buffs to his ability to push a minion wave on his own, a unique thing amongst supports.