Aziz needs more counterplayability against him

JhomasTefferson··14 votes·1,634 views

I've been playing mid a bit, It and jung are my main. And I think air is overpowered. Not because he does way too much damage, but because there's no counter playability to it. Over the past week I've been thinking about making a thread. And now i will, because i've concluded the only champ to be able to get inside his impassable soldiers and stupid broken wall is fizz, and even fizz will lose to him.

He has too much poke. It's just disgusting and completely unbalances him. If you play a melee mid, you lost lane against him. He can just use his soldiers to not let you get any cs without taking a decent amount of damage. And then, when he moves them, and they move onto you, they slow you, do damage, and then stab you for more. That and they also move pretty quick. As fizz i could only cs him after i dove past his soldiers to kill him. And even then, I could only cs safely when he wasn't in lane. He has the ability to either poke you so low that you'll die to him, or be forced to back, and it only takes till level 7 to do, because by then he should have the mana to sustain it.

If you play a ranged champ against azir, he'll have a hard time zoning you from cs, but he can still poke you so low that you're forced to back. And his poke is so ranged that you can't farm under tower. He can hit you from outside its range. So you can't farm against him really unless you've got a decent ranged farmer champ.

The soldiers also let him cs fairly safely, and give him disgusting wave clear. So if i thought ever to roam for a kill, he could just push in my tower very quickly.

Then theres the other problem. His wall. Why can nothing pass? Like, i could see it stoping hops and stuff as it's coming up, like janna tornado or something. But once it's up, things that normally go over walls, like trist and kha jump, fizz e, The J4 qe combo, thresh hook, and flash especially should be able to go through. So lets say you do somehow manage to dive him in lane. Then he walks to the other side of you and walls you into his turret, which can be there even if it's dead, and then sends soldiers to you, then he dives onto you. You die. It wouldn't be so bad if just flash could get through. And also, you shouldn't get pushed through it and stuck on the other side for walking into a soldier on the other side of it. It's not just a wall, its a one way trap that once you get sucked through you can't go back through with literally anything.

So, he cses safely, can poke you, even under tower, safely, has an impassable wall in case you do manage to dive to him, and has mobility of his own by dashing to soldier. That sounds unbalanced to me.

I played Karth into him twice, and it's impossible. Usually i can do well as karth, but his soldiers outranged my q, and if i did manage to catch him with my wall and walk up to him with e, he could just spawn the soldiers next to him. And if i chased him just a tiny bit too close to his turret, he could flash past me and wall me into the turret.

I had a similar problem with Kog. Kog's passive was absolutely useless, and i couldn't get in range, and even if i did, i was too low. Whenever you go to shoot a minion even, he can just send his soldier to where you try to shoot from. I've even tried constant motion, only stopping for a second to shoot a minion, and that brief second of aa animation is just enough for him to send the soldier to you. It slows you, and if it's high enough rank and you didn't build merc treads it will usually hit you twice. Eventually my ult let me outrange him and finally poke back.

Teemo could do nothing. Never could get into range, and was poked too low almost instantly.

Akali was shat on, even with her ult, for the same reason as yas, but that story shows more frustration

Fizz can kill him, but still, if you don't just almost recklessly dive for kills each time you can you won't be able to farm.

Yasuo could dash away from minions, and was one of the few who could lane almost safely because of his q and dash. The q was slightly longer than soldier range. Still, I hit Azir with the tornado, ulted onto him, ignited, and before i could aa, was immediately walled into his tower, where i was shot and stabbed to death from full. We weren't even that close to the turret. I thought when i ulted into him, after 11, cuz i had got 2nd level ult, and had finished IE, that i had finally caught him. Nope. He was too op.

With vlad i was able to duck the soldiers from time to time, and my sustain did ok against him, but still, saw no opportunity for counterplay.

With mord(pre rework) i couldn't cs, and was in poke hell. It went even through the shield. He had more wave clear than me too.

Most of the time, if you have a bad matchup, you can still farm relatively safely. Not against azir though. If you don't have a kit that lets you dive into him and avoid his soldiers, or farm at a huge range, or stupid sustain, you lose.

42 Comments

Fadedpf3 votes

Oh you wanna CS safely with something long range. Okay well fuck you my soldiers can fly across the whole lane and destroy you no matter what.

SouL1ess2 votes

Everyone who says that Azir has mana issues in lane and cannot poke you for eternity probably forgot that mana potions exist.

105g trades for the opponent backing every 4 minutes. What a great deal.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

This

Curling Veigar2 votes

they're nerfing everything but the toxic part of his kit for some reason

TyroneWatermelon2 votes

Azir's high skill so simply doesn't exist,move and attack is the mechanic of marksman,position soldiers is really easy because they will hit something anyways,w q poke and your enemy is 2/3 hp,good luck getting to his team without flash. The only thing I see that takes skill in azir's kit is how to correctly use his E

Divewing1 votes

It's the micro managing and multi tasking, and how that effects your teamfights. Unless you have the god frontliners peeling and tanking like something else, you will need to be very wary of your positioning, but not only that, to deal ANY FORM OF DAMAGE IN A FIGHT AT ALL, your soldiers MUST be in the correct position(s). Imagine playing adc as playing morde, you aa through the ghost. That is Azir every fight.

IxtaliKing2 votes

This is why I was most upset by Azir's changes. They have taken away/limited his more fun/interesting aspects, and kept his toxic ones. Riot should have tried making his Q almost exclusively a repositioning tool by reducing it's damage, slow and max rank cd. At least that way keeping his E knock up wouldn't have been problem. Imo Azir needs a change of identity, being a poke mage with his kit is not fun to play or play against.

Lynxonyx2 votes

Yeah, that Anasari guy is way too fucking funny. Nerf him please.

KarKzz1 votes

OBJECTIVE : Reduce his poke / harass in lane, keep or buff his "dive mage" strenghts

A few possibilities :

  • Give soldiers a healthbar. Either ward-like or just health. Make it so they take damage from AoE.

Compensate it by giving him some buff. Like : Dashing to soldier heal them. Soldier (Q) that pass though his ultimage deal more damage on their next attack. give knockup back

  • You could add something like more cooldown on his soldier (+5 seconds ?), but add a few second to their duration when he dash to. them.

  • Make his soldier deal less damage when he is far from them, but more when he is closer.

I think combining 1 and 3 could be pretty good.

Vistha Kai3 votes

Or they could finally gut Q's damage. It's suppose to be a utility spell to move soldiers around, meanwhile it's the source of half of his damage in lane.

Divewing3 votes

JUST NERF THE FREAKING Q. God I don't even know why it needed damage in the first place, it could have saved soooooo many unnecessary nerfs

Vistha Kai2 votes

I already heard that somewhere... Ah, right. Kassadin Hi.

Centuros1 votes

Air is indeed OP. It has the potential to kill everyone just by going away...

Oh, and Azir is super annoying, too.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

Yeah, my auto correct sucks. I have to correct it every time i type a champ name.

WalkingInACircle1 votes

Yeah, the lack of interaction you can have with his soldiers is dumb.

I'm thinking he could use some higher manacosts and a reduced range from which he can control the soldiers right now.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

That's exactly what i was thinking. I guess not having health on his soldiers is what keeps him from being almost like heimer. It's really just his range. And if he's ahead, you can't exist within it.

Linna Excel1 votes

If I could at least destroy the soldiers like a heimer turret or a zyra plant, that'd be one thing. They also seem on a low cool down as well.

Enosetc1 votes

what are you talking about, op?

there's nothing dumb about a guy sitting behind a wall 1k units away while doing sustained aoe magic damage

at all

Shandrake1 votes

What we need is a new Water Mage champ for mid lane.

Mud soldiers can't do squat.

Xantak1 votes

Think outside the box. You want a couple of champions that can go mid and deal with him and his wall? Hecarim and AP Malphite. AP Malphite can poke back at him, and get a movespeed steroid. And when he pops his wall up, Malphite is the linebacker to fly over and sack the quarterback with all that pent up burst while Azir is knocked up. Hecarim can use Onslaught of Shadows to ignore Azir's wall as it's moving, and can sustain in midlane.

TraderDerp1 votes

You can flash through his wall lmao. Dashes cannot go through, blinks can.

LordKentravyon1 votes

Reduce his poke?

Nah we will just remove his E knock up, then lower his movement speed

They might not be the issues with his kit, but we will hit them one by one till he is garbage THAT STILL HAS POKE - rito

Divewing1 votes

Ok I'm not arguing Azir isn't OP. But to be honest you getting shafted like this looks like it has little to do with Azir. Would you solo dive Irelia? Would you try to fight Ziggs with Karthus and Teemo? Would you try to roam against a Viktor. I mean seriously, "I dove Azir and he ulted me into tower, he's so OP" like, what were you expecting. I don't suppose you baited out his Q so he couldn't move his soldiers to go all in on him as yasuo or fizz and bait out his ultimate? I don't suppose you considered taking Talon or Zed against him? It seems to me that you have played totally carelessly with no respect for your opponent, without even knowing how his ultimate works, because as a matter of fact, flash does get you over the wall. I'll tell you. His wall isn't broken. His damage on soldiers isn't broken. His dash isn't broken. The only thing you are correct on is that his Q is broken, it doesn't need to deal so much damage. Having said all that however, he is still super squishy and easy to kill.

Now I play Talon a fair amount, but even so I have never had trouble against Azir.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

What if i told you the only champ i have that can deal with him is fizz, who gets banned often. I don't have another champ who can blink to someone like talon or kat or zed. Those champs are locked for me. I have a pretty decent champ pool, but it doesn't include many assassins like them. And I tried many things against him. Thats why I dove him, i tried to poke back, trade, but nothing actually works. I baited his ult, then his soldiers moving. So i dove him then, and he just dove to his soldiers who were (i thought) removed from the fight once i got in between him and them. Then he hits me with Autos and i still lose the trade. So what you're telling me my options are to get new champs. How is that balanced. Sure, certain champs should be better against some more so than others, but to need to get champs just to deal with this champ is the point at which the champ is broken. And I've tried many times, but for some reason i can't flash through it. Maybe it's a bug on the mac version?

Divewing1 votes

I can't speak for the Mac version, I'd assume it works the same since I haven't heard of such a bug. You MUST FLASH OVER, if you flash ON TOP of the wall, it will knock you back.

Now about matchups. Xerath and Ziggs are very effective. Things that waveclear quickly and efficiently can also force him into a farm state. As well as the pre mentioned assassins. Most of what you have listed have their play styles countered by either poke, sustained dps, or the wall. Asides from that soldier thing which sounds like your misplay.

I'd highly recommend playing Azir. His weakpoints at a glance are very subtle, but they punish him brutally. And to be honest you really lack in depth understanding of his kit, and its leading to some grievous underestimations on your part.

If Azir isn't in a favourable matchup, the best he can do is drop a soldier in between the melee and caster minions and zone while csing, since he needs a soldier to be ready for escape with E, at which point you can just farm until he makes a mistake.

Posui Gart1 votes

Azir pokes you too hard? Pick Xerath and show him what a real poke is. Also Azir he wastes his mana fast if he constantly pokes you, as well as pushing his lane. Playing as low-ranged champion you should ask for ganks: Azir can't escape if he wastes his soldiers or Q, and he is really squishy. As Karthus you can just safely farm with Qs while waiting for easy gank with your wall.

TyroneWatermelon3 votes

l V

Posui Gart1 votes

Oh, really? So we have 1x1 league now?

Vistha Kai1 votes

You balance a champion relatively to other champions, not them playing 1v2.

Posui Gart1 votes

You balance a champion relatively to what other champions can do in a usual game. There will never be "1x1 balance". An ability to farm safely under your own tower is an advantage against those who are pushing constantly, because permapusher can easiy be ganked. And a champion with escape has advantage over champion without escapes. While Azir has some sort of escape, he needs his 3 abilities ready, and its range is not that huge.

Vistha Kai1 votes

He needs 2 abilities which are essentially always available unless the player is a complete idiot.

You never need to use both soldiers in lane, nor you ever need to use E unless in danger. So unlike, say, Zed who has to waste his escape to make his poke meaningful, Azir is always safe as long as he has some mana, either for W+E or R.

Posui Gart1 votes

His W+E range is absurdly short, its shorter than his AA range. He needs his Q to place his soldier farther. And he also needs mana for this 3 spells, while he has no mana restoration aside from item 1056 and both his soldiers and Q being expensive. And by the way, Zed counters Azir. He can farm from distance with Q, dodge Azir's Q with his W, he can farm easily under his tower with all his spells and passive, and after lvl6 its usually oneshot because Zed will ult-W and move to W if Azir ults. And there is Talon with his EWQ combo that will hurt from lvl3. And already mentioned Xerath who wins in poke war. And Victor who wins once he gets his first upgrade. And Malzahar who can push and farm from 900 range if needed, while also being able to oneshot Azir if he engages. Velkoz punishes Azir for his immobility(Azir can't move while his soldier attacks). Fizz can all-in at lvl3-4 after Azir wastes WQ.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

What if you're in a situation where the jungler can't or won't gank and the other lanes won't gank because after 1 death they say you're feeding. Then azir can simply push you into tower repeatedly and poke you down under tower with no recourse. All i'm saying is that, for each champ playing against azir, there should be an opportunity for success in at least farming in lane. Maybe not getting kills, but at least farming up and not losing lane.

Posui Gart1 votes

I already listed like 10 champions who can farm against Azir, or even kill him. He is supposed to be strong against melee/short ranged champions.

SouL1ess1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Posui Gart,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xf73Af0V,comment-id=000d000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-23T12:06:24.562+0000)

His W+E range is absurdly short, its shorter than his AA range.

So is Flash, and I don't see Flash failing to save someone, especially at the shortest lane called Mid.

SwapShadows1 votes

The only problem Azir has with poking is that he can Q his soldiers under your turret and deal a hefty bit of damage while zoning which is pretty broken because he can't take any damage back.

His actual lane poking isn't that oppressive and it can easily be handled but when he pushes you under turret he can be quite oppressive.

WolfChases1 votes

People QQed about Zed being able to farm from the distance and being able to clear minions with ease.

Riot answers with Azir whos able to:

  • Be almost as mobile as Zed.

  • Have CC while Zed doesn't.

  • Be able to BURST and do SUSTAINED DAMAGE with slow on top of it while Zed has only burst if he manages to hit you with WEQ, not to mention that Zed W has 18 sec CD early game and it's maxed last so CD is fairly long till the very end of the midgame.

  • Zed can dive you with his mobility MUCH QQ about it, RIOT answers with Azir burst damage, sustained damage, slow, CC and his own turret.

I don't know how many players know about this but Sejuani can brake through "WALLS" and destroy them eg. Anivia Wall and JarvanIV Cataclysm so if you Q with Sejuani against JarvanIV and Anivia walls you will brake them but...there's one quite disturbing thing: - Sejuani 's pig is gonna broke her NOSE if she tries to brake the Azir 's wall.

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

they need to gut his Q damage and have a short delay before his sand soldiers can auto after they are moved by Q then decrease the Q CD and increase his his soldiers auto attack damage.

A little Peepo1 votes

He's already getting Q nerfed in pbe. His Q is making it so that only 1 soldier will damage so that cuts his Q poke by half when using 2 soldiers but the slow stacks.

4ManVotedAgainst1 votes

I have been above to use Galio and win against Azir and even keep my turret guarded for the whole entire match but man that Azir has Sand-Soldiers that CANNOT BE TARGETED OR HIT WTF (I think the Soldiers need some form of targetability & treated like Heimer-Turrets then at least there'd be some counter-play other than Galio and team-ganging).

Even as a Galio that wall of his interrupts Galio's ult then Azir just runs away like a pussy... D=

pacifishstick1 votes

From what I understand just by watching the pros play against Azir and from my (albeit small) experience playing against him the key is to trade back once he has used his Q. All of his damage is tied to his soldiers so once he's placed them and moved them as long as you get out of their AA range you can safely trade back and go even if not win. For example, Viktor is a solid pick into Azir (well, he's a solid pick into anyone) because you can use the ms buff from his Q to quickly move away from the soldiers after Azir has used his Q. The shield helps mitigate the damage he takes while moving through them while he can then trade with the enhanced aa damage and as long as he lands his laser the trade should be pretty favorable. Picks like Fizz and Talon are also pretty good in theory because once Azir's Q is on cd they have ample ways of getting to him whilst avoiding the sand soldiers. Fizz can just Playful/Trickster over them while Talon can use his E to instantly blink behind Azir, avoiding his soldiers altogether. Now things obviously get more tricky once Azir gets his ult, but there are ways to play around it, an example being that Talon can use his ult and a Ghostblade active to get around the wall quickly and back onto Azir. Or you can just play a long range mage like Ziggs or Xerath and not even worry about Azir.

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