Why diversity in the bot lane carry role would improve overall balance

JMoormann··4 votes·476 views

This became a bit longer than I expected, TL;DR at the end

So I recently read a post from a Rioter (think it was Meddler) about Gnar. What he said is that Gnar is a very interesting and important champion because of his relationship with juggernauts (let's take Darius as an example): the existence of Gnar means that Darius can never get too OP, but because a lot of Gnar's power comes from his ability to counter a class that isn't picked in every game, he will never be completely broken himself either. He serves as a very strong "class counter", and he alone is enough to prevent a whole class of champions from becoming too broken.

Gnar is a very strong example, but there are many more of such class counters, even between roles (Vayne deals with tanks, Kassadin is an anti-mage, etc). Darius is a great example of a champion that usually (there are some extreme exceptions, like post-rework Darius) won't go completely out of control, because in every role you can counterpick him: Gragas brings disengage from the jungle, Anivia can build a wall to keep him out, Kalista can kite him for days and Janna will make him regret his pick. Though not every class can be counterpicked from all 5 roles, there is usually at least 1 champion in every role who isn't straight up countered by the class. Those class counters are very important to prevent strong champions from becoming OP champions, and there are enough of them to make sure it's rarely the case that a single class crowds out all others (tank meta was a recent exception). In some cases a whole class is a class counter: every enchanter loves to make the life of that diver, who wanted to get on top of your backline, a hell.

There are many more of such class counters (Vayne deals with tanks, Kassadin is an anti-mage, etc). All of them rely on 2 conditions to be healthy:

  1. When a certain class gets strong the champion can keep them in check

  2. Because that class isn't necessary the champion will never get out of control (except for old Kassadin, but that was something entirely different).

And here comes the thing. The title already gave it away: there is 1 position in the game which is filled by 1 class. In the bot lane carry role there are only marksmen/ADCs, which means there is at least 1 ADC in every game. A champion or class that counters ADCs (let's take assassins, and then Zed as an example) can therefore be extremely broken. If Zed is too strong, he can go in every game, because in every game there is a sweet, squishy ADC for him to prey on. Zed is a class counter, but both conditions don't apply, making the relationship between Zed and marksmen unhealthy. The existence of Zed isn't enough to prevent ADCs from being necessary, and because they are necessary there is no limit for Zed. If Zed (again, Zed is just an example, this goes for any assassin) is too strong, he immediately becomes way too strong.

Let's take a look at an attempt from Riot to create a completely different bot laner: Mordekaiser. It didn't work out, but with some more work it could have worked, so what if it did? If Morde was a viable bot laner, an assassin meta would be a lot less dangerous (because assassins only have a purpose when there are enough squishies to blow up), and so would an ADC meta (because assassins can actually prevent ADCs from being picked). Because there is no alternative for an ADC (squishy ranged damage dealer with little to no self defense) this is not the case: anything that counters ADCs will be way too strong, and ADCs themselves are either way too weak (they are weak but you still need to pick one every game, even in bad situations), or way too strong (they are strong and there is nothing that can stop you from picking one).

I'm not saying that Riot should instantly turn champions into viable bot laners: Morde showed us what happened when you try to make a big change without doing much to his kit. But for the long term, it would be beneficial for the overall game balance, as it would make prevent ADC counters from instantly going from "above average" to "ridiculously OP".

TL;DR Every class has its counters, Gnar to juggernauts for example. Gnar is strong against juggernauts, but because not every game has a juggernaut, Gnar won't instantly become god tier when he gets a little bit too strong (against Gnar you can always pick Yasuo instead of Darius). ADCs however are in every game. This means that when a class or champion that counters ADCs gets a little too strong, you can pick it every game and the enemy can't pick something else to stop it, resulting in the champion or class becoming instantly overpowered. Because of this, it would be healthier to have not just ADCs in the bot lane, but also something like Morde, who can deal with assassins and such stuff.

6 Comments

BastionKross4 votes

Morde was actually strike two for the "melee bot lane carry" idea, Yasuo was supposed to be one as well. But, as should be obvious, if a champion is strong enough to survive the poke of two champs in the bot lane that champ will be utterly dominant in a solo lane. This was the main reason why, even though Yasuo is one of the best melee bot laners, next to no one ever plays him there. He's got an easier time in mid lane.

So CerT (who did both Yasuo and the Morde rework) said "okay, I just need a mechanic that will chain the character to bot lane!" and the Morde rework had three mechanics that favored a bot duo lane - His extra XP passive, his W that used to be only castable on another champion, and his dragon ghost.

This turned out to be a huge failure because Morde's kit was specifically designed to be at peak power when in a lane with another champion that won't CS (the support) and be against two champions that can't easily poke through his shields (an early game marksman + support). For a while, Morde ruled botlane. There was almost no combination of marksman and support that could beat him, because his kit was designed to beat the ass of that specific combo.

Like assassins now, Morde hard countered a specific situation that happens pretty much every game and became incredibly broken because he succeeded. What happened to him was the same as what happened to the last champion that hard countered marksmen, Urgot. He was nerfed into the dumpster, got some pity buffs, but is ultimately waiting for a rework before he gets to be strong again.

Ironically, for assassins to be strong, their primary targets (marksmen) have to be played less. Unfortunately, marksmen serve the duo purpose of being tank killers and objective controllers on top of having enough damage to kill everything else, so they are pretty much necessary to every team comp ever. If that ever stopped being the case, we would see team comps that are effective without a marksman, and then assassins could actually be left to do their job since there isn't a guarantee every game would have a marksman for them to prey on.

Aids cuz League1 votes

Morde isn't fun to play against or as anymore. He is literally an all in constantly champion with his only counter being teemo since teemo can keep his shield down which is Morde main problem and always has been his problem. He uses health sure, but with the right amount of Health/health restore items he can 1v3 people under turrets because if you get close, bam, instant shield from shrapnel and Q meanwhile you lose half hp instantaneously. Morde needs a few tune ups again, and he needs to be removed from being an adc because it just doesn't work well. Do you know what the worst combo is? Ekko/Morde, the first time I saw it, we did a remake and waited to que again because thats how dumb it is.

P.S. I only read the tl;dr and I know Morde was an example, I just don't like Morde.

Totalwanabe1 votes

every champion is viable in every lane only exception is jungle neutral won't back off or let themselves be kited so not every champion can jungle properly. but the issue is pro player created the mindset that adc are necessary and belong to bot lane only and the mass keep drinking that cool aid. Until the mass stop imitating pro players nothing will change.

ViiLLAiN1 votes

the issue i noticed by skimming thru is that yes there is only one class for bot aka ADC, But their is a role designed just for them called support. The supports are the ones that counter the assassins from blowing up the ADC and also the APC.

The main issue for bot lane is the items. They suck ass And i get it. Crit is a haard thing to balance. Which is why it should be removed.. And replaced with a new game mechanic idk what but it aint my job to think of one and i sure as hell aint gonna do the job for riot., or at least not for free ;)

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

Crit is actually pretty balanced if you take out the possible RNG from it. Marksmen are supposed to get their power spikes in the late game. Crit is how they do that. Early in the game, crit is pretty worthless. When your first item only gives you 20%-30% crit, you're not going to be dealing that massive damage on every attack. However, once you have 3-4 crit items, you have upwards of 80% crit rate and are dealing that 2/2.5x damage (depending on IE) on almost every auto.

One of the reasons why ADCs have been building Youmuu's and Black Cleaver is that they have much earlier power spikes that let your team snowball with the ADC, rather than waiting on the ADC to get super strong.

Leeerzeichen1 votes

I thought about this too and I came to the conclusion that there is simply no reason to not an ADC. Look at burst champions, they are really good against squishy champions but are terrible against tanks. Look at tanks, they are really effective against burst, but inefficient against sustained damage. Both of them are getting hard countered by their counters to a point where they are completely useless. And now look at ADCs, they are weak to burst damage, but good against tanks. However, adcs deal flat damage, so they are actually more effective against squishies than against tanks. So if an ADC has enough damage to kill a tank he always has also enough damage to kill a squishy. This is a major problem, because the only way to stop them is to kill them before they can kill you and if you reduce their damage to almost 0 to make sure that they always loose a battle against a squishy, they will never kill a tank. This creates the current state of adc: loose against everything early & win against everything late. This triangle is clearly broken. I also thought about how to slove this: The most obvious solution is to replace the flat damage with % damage, however this isn't a good solution because it creates a situation where tanks and squishies are getting killed equally fast, but tanks will still survive longer because they get armor. And this leads me to my best solution: defensive items. Tanks get health to counter burst, ADCs get life steal to counter tanks, but burst champs have no defensive items against sustained damage. So let's create a new damage type called auto attack damage and every auto attack will do this type of damage. Now we can put resistance against this damage type on every offensive item and buff the ADC damage. Now the have a really hard time against squishies but a great time against tanks. This also allows us to adjust objective pushing by giving different resistance values. I hope this wasn't to confusing and you could get my idea.

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