Giving every single mage access to mobility seems a really dangerous idea...

JMoormann··101 votes·5,081 views

For context, Xypherous has just posted a thread on the PBE Boards about upcoming mage itemization changes.

One of the new items will be the "Hextech rocket belt": an AP item that features an active with a dash. However, as a mage player I'm very concerned that adding mobility to every AP user will have a lot of consequences.

There are a lot of mages that might actually be completely changed with the addition of mobility.

For example, there are a couple of mages with fairly short ranged AoE CC abilities. What if Annie can suddenly dash in with Tibbers? What if Veigar can just jump in and cage your entire team? Even Galio might actually get time in the spotlight with the potential to dash into ult.

Then there are a couple of mages who already have a kind of engage potential, but need to make heavy tradeoffs for it. Azir can engage, but has to get Zhonya's or flash to survive. Lissandra has the same problem, or has to self ult. Giving them a second form of mobility allows for much safer and easier engages.

Then there are a couple of long ranged mages that are balanced around "If you reach them, they are dead". Allowing a Xerath, or a Lux, or whatever to simply dash away and get a second chance will allow them to play more aggressively and get a lot more reward without getting more risk.

Finally, the ones I fear most are the "AP juggernauts": the short ranged mage bruisers that, once they get in range, can destroy you. Allowing a Rumble to dash in or out, giving Vlad a lot more kiting potential, and the worst one of all: the balancing terror called Ryze. Ryze with a dash = pure terror.

This is NOT a rant about all AP champions becoming broken right now. In fact, most of them are pretty weak right now. This is mostly a warning, as I want it to be really clear that this change will likely have a lot more impact than Riot seems to think. Yes, AP users are struggling right now, but this is a huge change and might backfire quite a lot.

TL;DR New AP item with dash will likely have a lot of impact on a lot of different AP champions, something Riot seems to underestimate.

105 Comments

tXQbsPrjN546 votes

The biggest offense is the fact that not only does the item give mobility, they also tacked a bunch of random damage on it just in case it wasn't gonna be OP enough. If you ever wanted proof that Riot has 0 idea how to value mobility, here it is.

Velzard of Koz11 votes

To be honest, Xyph said he doesn't think it's gonna be okay. He seemed like just experimenting and this won't pass it. Because of the way he himself wasn't sure with this change, this became my least concern about it, because at least it didn't look like he meant it 100% to be neccessary. Other changes are distressing.

LankPants26 votes

One of the issues that we've struggled with in a lot of mid-range mages is that many of them essentially brute force their way to victory through raw numbers. They also don't have a ton of ways to opt into more flexible or flashy combat patterns with their core itemization.

Hextech Rocket Belt is an extremely dangerous effect that acts as either a range increased for their spells - a burst of initiation power - or simply a quick reposition tool so that these mages can fight in a more clever manner.

This is one of the most condescending statements I've ever read. Xypherous completely seems to ignore the idea that mages have skill involved in playing them at all. He seems to think that because they're not "flashy" they're somehow worse or less valuable than champions like his golden boys Zed and Lee Sin.

He claims that this is fighting in a "clever manner", I disagree. Fighting in a clever manner is not putting yourself into a poor situation to begin with. This is fighting in a more visually appealing manner, it has nothing to do with actual smart play.

This item threatens to compromise the identity of immobile mages who win games with smart play rather than flashy mechanics and I don't like it at all.

corruck16 votes

I couldn't agree more. Turning every champion into their own personal effects show doesn't do anything to help the team comp. The best teams win or lose as teams, and often the solo player who wants to do flashy plays on their own just winds up dead because aesthetics don't equate to power at all. Plus the mage players who are on top of their game use the resources (wards, their teammates, map awareness) to find advantageous positions and take out stray opponents or co-ordinate ganks to get ahead.

EfficientDynamo4 votes

If you read his posts more closely, you will see that he stated that this item is "dangerous" for game health and very likely won't make it into the game. There is nothing wrong with Riot playing with items on the PBE to see if the game can tolerate a mobile mage item.

Seriously, he posts about 5+ times that he doesn't think this item will ever make it to live.

Mhihnj24 votes

Taric's stun was removed because it was point and click. Annie's stun is still there because we need more reliable CC to catch assassins.

note: Both of these were said by Rioters in one of the posts on the boards. Also both were on seperate posts.

Michael Sykes3 votes

{quoted}

Taric's stun was removed because it was point and click. Annie's stun is still there because we need more reliable CC to catch assassins.

note: Both of these were said by Rioters in one of the posts on the boards. Also both were on seperate posts.

there is a difference between cc to catch assassins and a stun followed up by a huge burst which is the problem only

Kubox14 votes

Taric's stun was removed because a single-target CC on a support no longer cuts it. In a world of the likes of Alistar who can lock-down multiple threats at once, Taric was only able to say "Okay I'll keep the Zed off ya but I really can't do Jack about the Zac and Darius also diving you.

So they turned it into an AoE stun that, if Taric is paired to his ADC, offers some pretty decent potential against any diver that doesn't offer instant burst, should land or at least create a form of zoning peel for your ADC to re-position.

Obviously, and AoE point and click stun on a regular ability is both unbalanced and also not something that would even work gameplay-wise, so it had to be turned into a skillshot.

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

In a world of the likes of Alistar who can lock-down multiple threats at once,

As if alistar is new? Alistar has always been able to do that.

Kubox2 votes

And that matters because ..?

Old or not, Alistar does everything current Taric can do that is not free stats for everyone. If Taric kept his single target stun, he would still be outperformed by him even if he kept everything else in the new kit. The new stun is much stronger than his old one.

It only makes sense that a rework would try to fix the issue. The actual question here is why wait so long to fix it.

Heretic Lunari14 votes

3 Dashes Leblanc ? No thank you.

AMYS GRAVE6 votes

did somebody say

LeeSin

more mobility!?

CarbRundum2 votes

{quoted}

3 Dashes Leblanc ? No thank you.

Ahri

Dealth1 votes

6 if you include flash and the ability to dash back to where she started

The Queen Viper12 votes

Akali Annie Diana Ekko Fizz Kassadin Katarina Leblanc Lissandra Malphite Maokai
** ALL HAIL OUR NEW AP AOE BURST OVERLORDS! **

Michael Sykes5 votes

please no...

EDIT: And I am a LeBlanc main and do not want this

Blastermine3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snake on bush,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5UqWEAVd,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-04-07T11:20:48.475+0000)

Akali Annie Diana Ekko Fizz Kassadin Katarina Leblanc Lissandra Malphite Maokai
** ALL HAIL OUR NEW AP AOE BURST OVERLORDS! **

Annie Morgana Malzahar Ryze are probably going to be the worst.

YossarianSensei11 votes

Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Pretty sure Riot's just been doing crack for the past 2 seasons

Astôlfo11 votes

Oh hell no. This is one of the most goddamn awful ideas I have ever seen. Fuck this item.

And because it wasn't already a shitty enough idea, they had to add damage. That can do ~400-500+ damage easily per fireball in mid/late game. Yes, there's a 15% damage change for subsequent ones. Except, that's hardly relevant when you'll just melt into nothing after they flash + fireball + combo you instantly.

JMoormann2 votes

I might be wrong on this. but I believe it's not a 15% damage reduction on subsequent fireballs, but only 15% damage. I don't know how many balls it fires, but 250 +25% AP probably won't be enough to deal 800 damage unless you are a 500 minute Veigar.

That being said, it might be enough to push burst mages just over the edge.

Silmaril8 votes

Xypherous already said as much on the PBE forums, so they're at least aware of what problems the item could have.

If the only use of this item is to increase spell ranges - I think the most likely thing is to just delete the item.

Increased Spell Ranges is probably the most non-interactive part of the item that I'd want to item to support. It's a powerful use of the item - to be sure - but it's actually the part that I probably like the least out of all possible use cases.

My initial hope was that a dash would allow for a lot more outplay potential of either dodges, escapes or burst moments - but if all the item becomes is 'initiate on a dude from way farther than he thinks' - that item has very very little value overall in terms of net effects as it's not really enabling anything interesting - it's just a way for Annie to cheat her spell ranges and nothing of value for pretty much anyone else.

akroOma6 votes

Don't worry just build tank and you will be fine.

lofi n chillhop6 votes

I mean, adc's already have item 3142 , tanks already have item 3742 and item 3800 , and sups have item 3069 .

I mean I guess that a dash is "different" than insane move speed... but really, I don't see putting a dash active in an item is inherently a bad idea. I'm assuming it has a long cooldown, and is likely as small or smaller than flash. hopefully not allowing wall-hops. we'll see how good it is if it comes out... and if it's too good it'll get nerfed.

the thing is, once tuned... it'll require building it to have it, meaning that in theory a dash active on an item will allow mages to dash when it's needed, and not whenever they want to.

InivtesPreeze4 votes

Fucking clowns don't learn from the massive amount of mobility creep in the game already.

Demented Gag4 votes

Shaco

Chess13 votes

Oh lord alistar would abuse this

ObsoleteBlur2 votes

Rammus ok

joku jaskanen3 votes

Yay..

One more item for Ezreal to abuse.

Ok, AP Ez isn't in right now, but just wait.. The patch will bring a tidal wave of items for him to break.

Hex the FenFen3 votes

In truth I am worried about it being too strong on certain mages, but this way Lissandra can use it to get into position instead of wasting one of her highest damaging spells to do it. Ofc I am terrified of Ahri Akali Annie Azir Ekko Fizz Kennen Katarina Leblanc TwistedFate abusing the hell out of it but it will help a lot of mages that desperately need it too....its bitter sweet and will probably be removed

WiegrafOfValor1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Drosera Eumelia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5UqWEAVd,comment-id=0018,timestamp=2016-04-07T17:11:04.140+0000)

In truth I am worried about it being too strong on certain mages, but this way Lissandra can use it to get into position instead of wasting one of her highest damaging spells to do it. Ofc I am terrified of Ahri Akali Annie Azir Ekko Fizz Kennen Katarina Leblanc TwistedFate abusing the hell out of it but it will help a lot of mages that desperately need it too....its bitter sweet and will probably be removed

Won't be worth on those champions because they have better options and the active won't help them. 300 units on 30 sec CD for 3K gold? Why tge Hell kat will buy that if she can shupun further and with way less CD + reset if se kills the target.

Trust me, this guy is overreacting. This item is welcome by AP champs without mobility, Mordekaiser, Galio, Annie, Cassiopeia, Veigar, Malz, Heim, Brand, Anivia..

This champions need this item to keep up with mobility creep.

Abyssphere2 votes

{quoted}

Won't be worth on those champions because they have better options and the active won't help them. 300 units on 30 sec CD for 3K gold? Why tge Hell kat will buy that if she can shupun further and with way less CD + reset if se kills the target.

Trust me, this guy is overreacting. This item is welcome by AP champs without mobility, Mordekaiser, Galio, Annie, Cassiopeia, Veigar, Malz, Heim, Brand, Anivia..

This champions need this item to keep up with mobility creep.

You sound like the sort of people who thought Dead Man's Plate was a wonderful item for champions like Garen.

Guess who used it best? Champions like Lee Sin. Up to a certain point, mobile champions are very happy to double down on mobility. The only champion there who's mobile to the point of not wanting that active is probably Ahri.

Bots Whilst High2 votes

Unlike the common consensus, I believe this will be a welcome change in the mid lane especially, where the meta right now everyone has 3 dashes, a blink , 4 flashes, unlimited dashes, or a troll poll.

DrCyanide9 votes

It's a drastic shift, that much is obvious.

This item (with their explained changes) has more AP than Zhonyas, the same CDR as Zhonyas, is cheaper than Zhonyas, an active that's cooldown is 1/4th as long as Zhonyas, and has health making useful against more than just AD threats.

Honestly, I think Riot will be surprised at how many players will abandon Zhonyas in favor of this.

Bots Whilst High6 votes

I would ditch Zhonyas for extra escape/engage power as most of the time if an engage goes wrong the enemy just crowds on top of you and destroys you anyways.

Dar Raksada1 votes

{quoted}

It's a drastic shift, that much is obvious.

This item (with their explained changes) has more AP than Zhonyas, the same CDR as Zhonyas, is cheaper than Zhonyas, an active that's cooldown is 1/4th as long as Zhonyas, and has health making useful against more than just AD threats.

Honestly, I think Riot will be surprised at how many players will abandon Zhonyas in favor of this.

Fiddlesticks why not both?

agbudar2 votes

wana know who will abuse the fuk out of it? Leblanc Udyr Fizz

Crowe Stalker2 votes

I swear I'm going to make this a Macro:

Alistar Amumu Galio Fiddlesticks Diana JarvanIV Swain Jax Katarina Kennen Lissandra Malphite Maokai Mordekaiser Nautilus Rammus Riven Ryze Shen Shyvana Sion Udyr Volibear MonkeyKing Zac Vi Annie Orianna This item totally won't make us imbalanced guys, promise!

Malicious Metal5 votes

Yo, Morde could use some love.

Ralanr2 votes

I don't understand how Sion is a concern. He doesn't have good AP scalings.

Malicious Metal4 votes

People's logic; It's FLASH on a -15 second Cooldown EVERYONE will build it. Disregarding the fact that it's the same range as Tumble on half a minite CD and CAN't go over walls.

Crowe Stalker1 votes

His E might not have much of a scaling but it IS a scaling, and he could use this to smash into you from the brush after knocking you up. It's just another button he can use for more damage in his already potent arsenal.

Ralanr2 votes

His W also scales with AP. Most Sion's will hit you with their E before knocking you up. E>Q&W prime>Q smash>W burst.

Replace E with R for ults.

Surfer Ashe1 votes

Just FYI, it's basically a Vayne tumble on a 30s CD.

Remove/reduce the damage from it and I'd say it's pretty balanced.

These prophecies of doom that Annie will be OP tier is silly if the item gave fuck all AP to facilitate her "100-0" burst pattern.

BestTristMyHaus8 votes

I play AD champions. Give me a tumble on 30s CD and I'm tempted to take the item even if it provides me with literally ZERO other benefits. Mobility is THE single most useful thing in the game, which is why 99% of people have flash.

BastionKross5 votes

I was going to say the same thing. Even if the item gives mage stats, I'd be tempted to pick it up on AD bruisers/juggernauts. A quick tumble into hook and Darius suddenly counters ranged champs every 30 seconds.

Astôlfo7 votes

uh, fuck no.

Fanny Forecast1 votes

Force Staff on DotA 2, Blink Dagger on DotA 2. Blink Dagger is Flash on a 13 second cooldown (3 seconds after combat), Force Staff is 20 seconds and can be used on enemies to force them out of position (no cd for combat)

WhatAGeinius5 votes

Okay? What do DotA items have to do with anything?

Astôlfo2 votes

They don't. Fanny's points are irrelevant.

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