Riot could you bring back Ornn's unstoppable on his W?

BLIGHTBRINGER·May 15, 2018·45 votes·12,723 views

Now that he's in a okay-ish state (even with 47% winrate). I don't see why removing that part of him was necessary.

51 Comments

Risen29May 15, 201820 votes

I would also rather his kit be tuned in other ways to bring unstoppable back. It was a fun and unique part of his kit. I would have rather have seem them shave off some damage if necessary. Tanks value utility more than damage.

Chembaron YamadaMay 15, 20184 votes

It's not like his kit lacks unique stuff, tho.

can buy items in lane
can upgrade items for the whole team
can destroy terrain created by enemies
only source of brittle to enhance CC

I think it doesn't hurt his uniqueness to give 1 aspect up.

BârdMay 16, 20182 votes

Buying items in lane doesn't do anything to make him fun in a fight.

Upgraded items almost never come into play.

Destroying terrain only happens against a handful of champions.

Brittle CC extension doesn't really matter much since it's almost always popped by Ornn's knockups.

Chembaron YamadaMay 16, 20184 votes

If that all doesn't matter, then I guess we can simply remove brittle, his upgraded items and the terrain destruction to give him his unstoppable back?

BârdMay 16, 20181 votes

Yes.

You vastly underestimate how important unstoppable was to make Ornn fun to play.

Take away his forging, we might get annoyed.

Take away Brittle's CC extension, the Masterworks, or Terrain destruction, and we wouldn't feel it at all.

Take away unstoppable, we leave the champion.

BestealMay 16, 20181 votes

You vastly underestimate how important unstoppable was to make Ornn fun to play.

Take away his forging, we might get annoyed.

Take away Brittle's CC extension, the Masterworks, or Terrain destruction, and we wouldn't feel it at all.

Take away unstoppable, we leave the champion.

This. Why is it so true?

Risen29May 16, 20181 votes

Unstoppable was fun and skill expressive.

It also was fittting with his theme of relentless advance as a giant charging ram that cant even be held back by walls.

EedatMay 15, 201812 votes

Can we not make his W insanely overloaded again? Thanks

BLIGHTBRINGERMay 15, 201810 votes

I would rather sacrifice some of his other abilities power to get that part of him back. With that part he would have ways to outplay, and to play around the opponents in fights.

I wouldn't say that it's overloaded. But if the first suggestion didn't seem good enough, my second one would be take away some of his power from W and spread it across to other abilities to make it somewhat equally strong.

Votable JesterMay 15, 20181 votes

It gives a sizable shield and %max health damage in an aoe. Putting unstoppable on it again would just return it to being a "don't bother trying to interact with me" button.

It just does a bit of everything you need, and Ornn can already outplay a bit with his Q, E, and R.

AzadetheMay 16, 20181 votes

Keep in mind his W has a LONG cooldown. 17-9 Seconds pre CDR. They even increased it by 2 seconds over time. It's only at super late game that it's scary. In lane it means he's pretty limited in what he can do.

GayFluffyUnicornMay 16, 20184 votes

I mean the spell does: shield him, insane max %hp damage, apply brittle and so makes him knock back the target applying even more % health dmg. Sounds pretty overloaded. Meanwhile there are champs like jax whose W ability does some more dmg. Take away a chunk of his W dmg and give him unstoppable back, sounds reasonable honestly.

BLIGHTBRINGERMay 16, 20183 votes

The thing is Jax W has a really low cooldown at max rank (3 seconds) if i'm not wrong and that's without any CDR.

Support PositionMay 15, 20185 votes

No ornns is broken. He needs to stay there.

BLIGHTBRINGERMay 15, 201813 votes

How is he broken?

You could atleast explain reasons as to why that might be prosumely true.

Votable JesterMay 15, 20182 votes

Well he is still pretty popular in the pro scene, isn't he? That would suggest that he's at least balanced in the realm of advanced players. Adding more outplay potential to his kit would likely generate an even wider division between skill levels.

BLIGHTBRINGERMay 16, 20181 votes

[deleted]

SweedishGunnerMay 16, 20181 votes

Have you watched MSI at all!?

Out of 32 games Ornn has been picked 19 times and banned 11 times. That's 2 games where he hasn't shown up anywhere.

People down-voting the guy just because they have some blind love for Ornn.

BLIGHTBRINGERMay 16, 20181 votes

It's not blind love since they aren't asking to buff his damage but to return something that already existed before a nerf.

Votable JesterMay 16, 20182 votes

Which is a buff. He'd need some serious compensation nerfs for that.

French CourtesanMay 16, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darkin Hybrid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xTr7s417,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-05-15T15:43:48.823+0000)

How is he broken?

You could atleast explain reasons as to why that might be prosumely true.

How is tank broken? Really? A champion that doesnt have to build damage to deal more damage than champions that have buy more expensive items? That sure isnt broken or anything.

BLIGHTBRINGERMay 16, 20181 votes

Think about it this way.

A tank builds defensive and health (reduces your damage).

You build no defenses but pure damage (you take more damage and deal reduced damage to them).

French CourtesanMay 17, 20181 votes

You build no defenses but pure damage (you take more damage and deal reduced damage to them).

I take more damage. FROM WHAT EXACTLY? FROM TABIS AND FUCKING CHAIN WEST? This is problem of tanks. Their design is crap. If tanks deal damage naturally because they have to build defense, then bruisers should be naturally tanky. More AD I build on darius, more healing from Q. More damage I build on jax, longer duration of my counter strike. And this isnt op. This is just reversing of how tanks work.

IręlíaMay 15, 20186 votes

No he's not. He was 100% fine on release, people just didn't know how to play him and therefore he had a baaaad winrate.

cough even though I had a 75% winrate on him for the first month cough

Then they Buffed him and listened to the uneducated mob. That's where the roller coaster started.

LordGeovanniMay 15, 20183 votes

He was bad on release. But the change he got was a bad change that made him broken. to this date they havent fixed his problem. Because while low cooldown W gave no window to fight him The long cooldown W means that he cant fight at all since its his only spell in lane that ever did anything Q E combo or ult may be good for a team fight but unlike nearly every other champion in the game the rest of his spells are just useless in lane. which is how does he snowball. How does he win lane and stay in control or lose lane and thus not stomp. He cant do either because he has no scalings and he would be okay like just like volibear if he didnt have everything in his kit have massive delays that keep him from doing anything else. Riot isnt ever likely to change his skills to take away the massive delays from casting so might as well give him the same scaling across his abilites so he has a chance at snowballing or using just half of his own masterwork items.

AzadetheMay 16, 20181 votes

If you think his kit was broken at any point of the game, I really wonder what you think about DrMundo .... The only champ in the game who can literally 99% nullify one damage type, yet has a 4 second CD 25% HP skill which has a MINIMUM damage threshold (basically free Magic Penetration), Innately has no counter other than Grievous wounds, and gets up to 220 AD on his E and has weak to no scalings.... and also has insane Tenacity....

Compare what Second Wind does to Ornn vs what it does to Mundo. Oh right.....vs Ornn, it almost erases all his damage. Vs mundo, Mundo overwhelms it.

Chembaron YamadaMay 16, 20182 votes

Taking a champion as an example, who is clearly outdated and in huge need of a complete VGU, doesn't make your argument seem valid. There is a reason why Dr. Mundo is tier 1 for the VGU besides his horrible visuals.

LordGeovanniMay 17, 20181 votes

Every instance of %current hp has a minimum threshold because riot doesnt want a skill that should fizzle and do less to fizzle and do less. Mundo can not literally nullify 99% of one damage type because there is not enough magic resist items in the game and even if he went item 3193 to 5 item 3102 or 4 with a item 3194 and fully stacked w he still cant nullify 99% of magic damage. Mage players just like to cry when they cant 1 shot what they obviously shouldnt be able to 1 shot even when building that way makes the champion who does useless in every situation in the game except 1v1 versus a mage in which they are still useless 90% most times cause the mage can just run away and they cant kill the mage just like the mage like to cry they cant kill them. Orrn was broken during the time that his W did max hp damage and still had his release w cooldown.

Innately has no counter other than Grievous wounds,

Innately ranged champions have no counter other than being one shot......??????? Of course people have no counter if you take out what counters them. Innately Melee champions have no counter other than being kited, slowed, rooted, stunned, suppressed, poked, burst, one shot, dashed away from, out run, out sustained, knocked up, knocked back and out dps'ed.

AzadetheMay 18, 20181 votes

You don't seem to realize that Mundo's E + item 3194 stack multiplicatively.

Paired with Second Wind it literally erases all damage taken from AP sources which aren't a 1 hit like Veigar .

He actually GAINS HP vs Ornn Morgana Zyra Fiddlesticks Karma Lulu MissFortune Rammus Rumble Ryze Teemo Viktor Xerath

Even if they have Grievous wounds.

I've actually seen a Xerath Ult to kill a Mundo who only had ~ 350 HP left when he was ~900 AP. He hit all 5 ult shots. The first two shots hit did some damage. By the 3rd shot, Mundo was actually healing. By the 5th shot he was up to 770 HP.

He can literally heal out of damage even on grievous wounds vs almost all mages.

His "Magic Resist" math might not prevent damage, but the right runes sure as hell can make the outcome the same.

You literally can't kill him as a mage, even if you were to 1v1 him, and force him to miss 10-20 axes in a row. Mages cannot outrun/skirmish Mundo. The best a Mage can do vs Mundo is literally to apply a DoT with item 3116 item 3165 while their team does the killing.

rtbf221651412May 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

No he's not. He was 100% fine on release, people just didn't know how to play him and therefore he had a baaaad winrate.

cough even though I had a 75% winrate on him for the first month cough

Then they Buffed him and listened to the uneducated mob. That's where the roller coaster started.

I haven't met another tank that can 1 v 3 yet.

Last time that happened was Sej S6?

DrugothMay 15, 20183 votes

It was especially fun counter picking Blitzcrank with Ornn because I could just intercept his hooks all day and render him useless with W lol.

IceKingChernobogMay 15, 20182 votes

i want his scalings to be fixed as well. It's he has the same problems as Volibear , that his scalings are so all over the place there is really only one way to properly build him.

AzadetheMay 16, 20181 votes

No. The best way to build him isn't built by 99% of Ornn players.

His scalings are fine. Ornn players just haven't figured out how to build him in the new runes/item adjustments yet.

IceKingChernobogMay 17, 20182 votes

what exactly the best way to build him, got any pointers?

LordGeovanniMay 17, 20181 votes

The best is full tank not because its good on him but because it allows him to live longer thus giving him more rotations of lack luster spells. the same reasoning goes for most tanks in the game.

ChaddyFantomeMay 16, 20182 votes

Make his W do % Current HP again and we have a deal. No clue why Rito made the change in the first place.

BattalionMay 16, 20181 votes

Mmmm, he's in a good spot damage-wise, I wouldn't mess with his damage. I do think the big goat should get unstoppable though.

LordGeovanniMay 17, 20181 votes

His current hp W Version was balanced. What wasnt balanced for him and left him underpowered was that he has nothing to allow him to scale with when he won lane to transition to being strong out of lane. Like giving His other basic spells that dont have these scalings damage scaling with Ad ap or bonus hp. Quite frankly his w and E feels bad to use because they are super clunky. His Q and R did feel bad to use for the same reasons but they were fixed. I dont understand the reasoning behind having 350 range (or less) tanks have big wind ups on spells but 450-600 range adcs mages can use instant mobility spells and instant moving cc that have lower cooldowns and more damage most of the time ( Ezreal Ahri Ashe Azir Caitlyn Draven just to name a few)

flibitydooMay 16, 20181 votes

I don't mind him getting unstoppable back

but DO NOT put it on his damn W. that thing already is "gain a %health scaling shield, do % health dmg, do aoe waveclear, have a knockback". Exactly why it needs to do everything in the game save for blow up nexus is beyond me. It's not an "expression of skill" whenever Ornn presses W. the optimal damn way to play the guy is to max and spam your W off cooldown while in combat-no exceptions. it is functionally the "win" button and how much you "win" depends on how quickly you mashed W during a fight.

put it on his Q, put it on his E, put it on his ult, but his W is already one of the most overloaded abilities designwise and should not have it.

DrugothMay 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I don't mind him getting unstoppable back

but DO NOT put it on his damn W. that thing already is "gain a %health scaling shield, do % health dmg, do aoe waveclear, have a knockback". Exactly why it needs to do everything in the game save for blow up nexus is beyond me. It's not an "expression of skill" whenever Ornn presses W. the optimal damn way to play the guy is to max and spam your W off cooldown while in combat-no exceptions. it is functionally the "win" button and how much you "win" depends on how quickly you mashed W during a fight.

put it on his Q, put it on his E, put it on his ult, but his W is already one of the most overloaded abilities designwise and should not have it.

Actually the cooldown for W was nerfed quite heavily along with his damage as well. If it was on E I wouldn't mind.

LordGeovanniMay 17, 20181 votes

Or we could make his e instant cast instead of stupid and delayed and not him have to spend self stunned time getting up after hitting a wall. Show me a marksmen with all that gating their mobility which is most likely shorter cooldown higher damage less mana cost etc

Chembaron YamadaMay 18, 20181 votes

What do marksmen have to do with that? I know it's cool to hate on the class nowadays, but come on.

It is highly telegraphed because of its impact. This spell is able to potentially knock up an entire team. Knocking up (a CC that can't be reduced) up to 5 people is huge. So giving the enemy some warning seems fair for me.

Total EclipseMay 16, 20181 votes

Im a guy who will always vote for mechanics (swagger). I saw good ornns drop W in response to riven Q and it was respectable. Fuckin hell, make him get 1.5x shield if he succesfully becomes unstoppable. Just nerf him elsewhere, bc i fucking hate playing against this game lmfao xD

The nerf he needs that would go with this well is a HUGE nerf to his base mana and mana regen. Bc the sustain he gets off Dorans shield stacked with catalyst is just effing retarded honestly.

Edit: D5 top main.

DoktorKaiserMay 16, 20181 votes

Ok if they lower his damage, its way too high with the amount of chain cc he can provide.

OatheSwornMay 16, 20181 votes

True, I thought it was a valuable part of his kit, something to add more depth and skill into the gameplay. There are times when a fight is determined by the timing of this ability and removing it has taken out an aspect to Ornn. Just my opinion but I think Riot should reimplement the unstoppable.

Modl Ryden lMay 16, 20181 votes

I'm not understanding the need for unstoppable on W? He only moves like 150 units.

Chembaron YamadaMay 17, 20182 votes

Mostly people enjoyed that they could invalidate major parts of the enemy gameplay with it. Example: Blitzcrank This guy becomes basically useless in the game. Ornn just stands in front of his team and uses W whenever Blitz even remotely tries to hook. Blitz' complete kit is hard countered now. Urgot Just use W whenever you see him using his highly telegraphed E. He won't be able to use his backside shotgunknees the whole laning phase.

People use as an argument that it was fun for the Ornn player to use. But what they ignore: it was one of the most anti-fun things for the enemy ever. Basically you didn't want to interact with Ornn at all anymore. He gets a shield, you can't CC him (which many champs try to do for engage) and then he deals massive %hp damage. A single spell to make sure you win the trade.

LordGeovanniMay 17, 20181 votes

You mean they used their ability to counter your ability? like all the ranged mages and adcs in the game Fizz Zed Talon. Urgot doesnt get e can still walk around with w and use q to slow Blitz can still knock up with E (blitz kit is not hard countered what you think his w is for to run into melee range to set up e just that most people dont do that because that involves risk much like ezreal they only spam q and call anything that makes that harder making them useless.) as blitz you can w and run to a better position so that orrn cant get to block your q with w