So Riot insists on Zed being a healthy Assassin.

Kaisa is Hot·Jul 7, 2016·35 votes·2,476 views

Well let me ask you this Riot. You guys say the main component that makes an Assassin an Assassin is high risk high reward. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOOOOTHING high risk, high reward about ulting someone from 700 range, using a combo that takes maybe .2 seconds to get off, than pressing you r again to bring you back to safety. You say he's a healthy Assassin yet you broke the one Assassin design rule with him, and he has been a continuous problem for your balancing team, you call that healthy?

89 Comments

KONO RUBICK DAJul 7, 201621 votes

zed is the only assassin who can miss his assassination, because he needs to wait 3 sec until the carry is dead.

Bard TahmKench Zilean Kayle can save their adc from his death mark, and a lot of champs can dodge his ulti like Lissandra . this also gives you the time to shield yourself, lifesteal, reduce his damage, casting summoner 7 summoner 3 ect...

sona 's damage reduction is being buffed and she will be able to reduce zed's damage by 55%. As a sona main, i will be able to save my adc without pressing R.

AhristocatsJul 7, 20162 votes

ekko's Q is delayed which delay his burst, his W has 3 seconds delay but that doesn't matter anymore because he is played with a tanky build now to dps instead of bursting.

DreadlocksJul 7, 201610 votes

This is about zed, not ekko

zlumpyJul 7, 20169 votes

Tahm only prevents further damage. They still pop in his stomache if marked.

AMYS GRAVEJul 7, 20161 votes

If Tahm kench devours the adc it does not stop zed's death mark, it only makes them untargetable. The death mark pop will still do damage when they are eaten and dots like ignite keep ticking.

KONO RUBICK DAJul 7, 20163 votes

nop, not if tahm devours the adc while zed is jumping into him with his R.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

AMYS GRAVEJul 7, 20161 votes

Don't do that. If you eat them before zed even lands zed's ult gets put on a 5 second cd, and he can jump them again before your devour comes back from cd. Same effect that used to happen with QSS.

GayFluffyUnicornJul 7, 20163 votes

I wish that would be the case with Fizz E. It's kinda ridiculous my ult gets on a full 100 cd cooldown when this piece of shit just jumps on his 3 seconds cd untargetable troll pole.

elon wątrobaJul 7, 20162 votes

Any tank with item 3401 + item 3190 works too. Did it with braum.

Serpents EmbraceJul 8, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rubick x Sona,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xQFuVzE6,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-07-07T12:34:06.063+0000)

the only

Kosm1KJul 8, 20162 votes

You do realize that the champs you listen can screw up ANY ASSASSIN right? The only difference is that Zed used to be able to be countered by QSS, but riot removed that.

KONO RUBICK DAJul 8, 20163 votes

Try to do that against a fed Talon if you manage to zilean ulti someone when talon comes from no-where and jump on them i'll think that you have asian reflexes. worst part is that you're forced to immidiatly ulti, which means tha talon can jump and back off so you waisted your ulti for nothing.

and even if you save them, your adc alone, won't be able to lifesteal his damage, or casting heal in time.

Kosm1KJul 8, 20162 votes

yeah but that's pretty much the same for any fed champ, except a fed talon can't 1v5 the team like say a fed kat. Also if you see talon coming, you know where he's going, enough time to prep for a taric stun, bard stun thing, a bunch of things can stop it. Also if you're grouped talon can't do much because he'll just assplode as soon as he goes in with no guarantee of getting a kill.

EDIT: also if he does end up going in, he has no escapes, just pop a pink ward or use a scanner and you'll have a dead talon.

AhristocatsJul 9, 20161 votes

what about leblanc? just press W or R and you're back with a zilean wasiting his ulti. By the way Zed has more counterplay because champions like taric and bard have time to use their ulti.

i feel like zed would have been the most perfect assassin in all moba if he didn't have manaless waveclear/harass.

Kosm1KJul 9, 20161 votes

Now that, I can agree with. Zed would be much more balanced if he didn't have that free waveclear. That is honestly my biggest problem with him. The fact that he's so strong in every point of the game, also having a free blink to any location is a lot stronger than a targeted blink towards allies/enemies Katarina or to just enemies Talon helps him out a lot too, but I personally feel that it would be fine if he didn't have his waveclear.

NilokJul 7, 201611 votes

Honestly, it should say a lot that Zed's ban rate is still very high at 66.25%, even with a 47.16% win rate with it only hitting 50% by full build.

Simply put, it isn't just Zed's reliability or damage that make people so dislike him, but a concept in his kit and design. My guess would be either his mobility with his shadows and escaping, or his ability to quickly recover his energy and try another rotation. Most likely a combination of the two at this point, though removing the counter to his ult with QSS probably didn't help people's outlook on him.

zlumpyJul 7, 20167 votes

I don't understand why you were down voted. Zed is banned because he is literally anti fun for many other people. I hate having him on my team and I hate fighting against him because he is just plain annoying.

Also the whole cc argument becomes much tougher to support as riot steadily removes all targeted hard cc. Example:old taric could be free to fight and save someone with a dazzle from various positions. Now He has to stand directly next to an adc (very boring) or hope they don't miss click their stun and fire it randomly in a useless direction. I like new dazzle tbh but it definitely lost a lot of peel potential against high mobility assassins.

I also now people are gonna use Taric against me and say "but just ult" so now I have to decide if ulting to save my adc ( if I don't mess up and have it not activate .3 seconds after zed ult pop) is worth it or if I should save it for a team fight.

As it stands riot is slowly removing tools that were used to keep zed in place and it is making playing vs him more frustrating. A good Zed simply has way too much control over your fate and his fate and that is the fundamental problem of why a majority of players at varying elo hate him.

Voluug13Jul 7, 20165 votes

Yes, they have been removing a lot of anti-assassin and anti-mobility power lately, and then pretending they dont know why assassins are so obnoxious.

Valor BotJul 7, 201611 votes

{quoted}

Zed gives up upfront burst in exchange for safety and reliability hence blinks in his case.

As demonstrated by the above post, Riot knows Zed is a reliable Assassin. In their view, the fact that his damage is delayed balances out the overall safety and reliability of his kit (ult takes a few seconds to 'pop' so it can be reacted to quicker than, say, a Rengar or LeBlanc). Not sure I can agree on how fair of a tradeoff that is but there you have it.

TheOvermindJul 7, 20164 votes

Who the fuck down voted you

Nameless VoiceAug 18, 20161 votes

The problem that I have with this is that the only reaction you have is to either be a champion that can negate damage (such as Lissandra), or have an Hourglass / some kind of massive sustain.

You generally can't react by fighting Zed, since he's already gone. He slaps his damage onto you (in an instant), and then you survive for a short time before you realise that you're dead, but because Zed can unload his combo instantly and then dash away, it is effectively not that much different than e.g. a really fed Katarina jumping to you, instantly deleting you, and jumping back out.

So, you have a delay before you die, but whether or not you can really do anything in that time depends heavily on which champion you are, rather than specific skillful play.

TehNACHOJul 7, 201610 votes

You guys say the main component that makes an Assassin an Assassin is high risk high reward.

No they don't.

Now, speaking as an advocate for increasing risk and reward for assassins, this line is plainly not true. Riot wants Assassins that don't massively destroy games when ahead nor fall out of existence when behind; this is the exact opposite design philosophy you state they have. And before this becomes a "my word vs your word" argument, here are some lines from their assassin update post:

They have been tough to balance because of how frustrating they can be to play against especially when they get ahead. Playing against an Assassin can often feel very inevitable and hopeless, especially once they start their snowball. Giving opponents options and opportunities to outsmart or outmaneuver the Assassin is critical to the sustainability of the class in the long-term. On the flip side, this also allows us to give Assassins a bit more punch when they do succeed meaning that they’ll be able to dig themselves out of even more precarious situations than before when executed to their full potential.

And almost nothing in their post that hints at them wanting to push higher rewards for more risk. I mean, you can sorta twist their ideas of introducing uniqueness to their kits as more work for more reward, but honestly that's not the same thing.

Voluug13Jul 7, 20166 votes

The thing is, you cant have assassins with the burst and mobility they have just for being assassins, on top of reliability.

If Riot makes reliable, always able to kill targets assassins, no matter how far they are, what is the point of mages that arent AoE machines? Why could I ever pick a Malzahar, Syndra or any non AoE combo-wombo mages when they have less burst, less safety, less mobility and less survivability that an assassin.

A reliable assassin is simply design cancer. It cant exist and be balanced and healthy because it could outcrowd literally everyone that could even share even a part of role/niche.

Not only that, but assassins with mobility and superior laning phase like Zed and Ekko take away literally any agency on laning from their opponents. If they are assured a power spike no matter what AND limit the champions that can lane fairly against them due to the tools given to them, that means their opponents are fighting a lost battle and literally nothing they do in lane can stop the assassin from doing whatever they want. Outside of basically forgoing laning phase and trying to counterpick the assassin for post-laning fights, playing a 100% passive farm/push lane is the only way to go for MANY champions and players.

Not to mention Riot has LOVED to nerfwork or outright gut assassins/mobility counters.

TehNACHOJul 7, 20162 votes

Did you not look at the link I posted, I know these things. I talked on and on about these things. I advocate for riskier assassins. You reeeeeaaally don't need to explain to me a viewpoint I already have.

Vhan8765Jul 7, 20167 votes

Except for the fact that Zed is easily shut down in team fights?

Sure, 1v1, you're kind of screwed. There is literally not much at all you can do against a Zed 1v1; but in a team fight, Zed doesn't have much going for him besides trying to target and take out low, single targets. Many of the other assassins we get are super ridiculous and can easily carry, if not be the whole team fight themselves. ( MasterYi , Katarina )

Zed's damage is a little ridiculous but both his Q isn't the hardest to dodge as well as his ult can be countered if you're expecting it. Zed's ult has a short timer to get a bunch of damage in and if you don't, you're leaving the enemy after hitting them with a wet rag. When he casts his ult, that is literally all he is doing, putting that silly little mark on you to deal damage later on. Any properly landed CC easily interrupts that and makes Zed piss himself because he can't deal more damage to increase the ult damage; as well as a well timed dash ability or something to escape from Zed can also prove effective. Simplest of things, if you know you'll be facing Zed often, item 3157 .

He is a silly little champion with really high hopes, but when put into perspective, Zed is mostly only scary if the summoner knows really darn well what they're doing with him. Otherwise you just get people spamming laugh while doing average at best in regards to that current game.

GayFluffyUnicornJul 7, 20163 votes

Actually just pick a soraka. A well placed silence will make the Zed tilt so hard he eventually rage quits xD That's atleast how i felt playing against soraka as zed. U ult or W in, sit in the silence zone, you can't ult, ult back, flash, Q, E nothing. Just sit there, wait for the root and your grey screen

Mandang0Jul 7, 20167 votes

There's nothing 'high risk" about Zed - not his kills, not his farming, not his lane getting ganked...

AnnoxisJul 7, 20166 votes

They consider Zed an healthy assassin because he is the only assassin that has reactive counterplay in his burst pattern, the moment before his ult explode. That makes them say that and I won't deny it.

They never say he was an healty champion, though.

LatetotheRaceJul 7, 20162 votes

Them not saying he is unhealthy would imply they think he's healthy.

AnnoxisJul 8, 20162 votes

Flawed logic. Most of the time, your friends don't often say they like you, but they still does, Silence in a debate doesn't imply a position in opposition to the majority.

TheOvermindJul 7, 20164 votes

Riot is talking about assasination patterns, not laning phase trades all ins etc. Zeds assasination pattern is healthier than most other assassins like talon or Rengar who jump in and kill you in less than a second before you can even heal or you support can even cc or exhaust them. With Zed you are well aware of the fact he is threatening you and you have ample time to prepare for it . Eg reposition, heal, zhonias , support can shield etc . You get my point

Voluug13Jul 7, 20166 votes

Maybe, but the fact you have a modicrum of power over said assassins in the early phases of the game, they are extremely easy to destroy and make useless, is a FACT that is there.

Neither Riot of the playerbase can consider assassination patterns in a void. Rengar and Talon have unfair assassination patterns, yes, but they also come with crippling weaknesses and terrible earlygames to offset that. You can destroy them early and make them useless latter on.

You cant do that with Zed, Fizz or Ekko because they have either reliable high bases, reliable utility, or reliable both.

GayFluffyUnicornJul 7, 20162 votes

Have you ever played Zed? If Zed doesn't have a lvl advantage/gold advantage he is more than mediocre and will stay so the rest of the game. And that's a fact IF he doesn't manage to get several kills by roaming which would lead to said lvl or gold advantage and this is also true for rengar or talon. But rengar and talon still get powerspikes with items. Zed really doesn'T have that big of a powerspike, Ghostblade maybe and once he gets 40% cdr for double Qs. The lvl advantage is crucial for Zed. Just try 1v1 an adc at the same lvl as Zed and same gold and then try it with rengar or talon. And i don't think a "shit laning phase" which isn't true at all. Talon yes, rengar laning? On top he is a beast and can easily snowball from a lvl 2 or three first blood if you are stupid enough. But mostly he is in the jungle and stronger than a bunch of the jungler roster. Back to talon, he still got tools to farm rather safely but i agree his laning phase is not pleasant at all but still: Shit laning phase is justifying a no counterplay 100-0 assassination in less than a second? I don't think so and that'S why talon is kept at a shit lvl until they can rework him a bit.

Kosm1KJul 8, 20162 votes

Zed needing an advantage to get ahead? Easy, his spammable Q gives him that advantage because he's not limited by mana. All he has to do is just QQQQQ during the laning phase and force his laner out then just get the level advantage there, easy peasy. Got ganked as zed? Just use shadows to get away. I know Zed isn't the most op champion, and that he can be beat, but the fact that even if you beat him, he can still come out ahead fairly easily because of the safety his kit entails, that's what's frustrating about him, just like fizz. Fizz has his trollpole to ensure he can get out alive and get that assist gold and eventually snowball enough to assassinate outright. Zed is very much the same, and that's unfair to assassins like Talon or Rengar, who once they jump in, need to get the kill in order to get out. If they waste they're forced to waste their ult as an escape, they're never going to get fed, however, Zed has that built into his ult, and Fizz has untargetability around every 8 secs. People don't hate zed because he's too easy to burst with, they hate zed because he can get off his burst in the middle of the enemy team, and get away thanks to his ult.

SpoofghoulJul 7, 20164 votes

well zeds assassination is probably the most healthy in the game right now.

He apears behind you so you always literally always know where hes going to be before he does his combo

Then ne needs to land the combo

then you have 3 secs to prevent death with shields heals and other stuff

zeds problems lie elsewhere

KingnewgameplusJul 7, 20162 votes

Talon?

Vistha KaiJul 7, 20163 votes

He was indeed "high risk", before they rework his ult's shadows like 2-3 years ago.

Violet RavenJul 7, 20161 votes

Ashe + Zed + item 3140 = item 3151

DrCyanideJul 7, 20167 votes

QSS for Zed? Because QSS will free him from Ashe's Ult, but QSS won't save Ashe from Zed's Ult.

Violet RavenJul 7, 20163 votes

{quoted}

QSS for Zed? Because QSS will free him from Ashe's Ult, but QSS won't save Ashe from Zed's Ult.

I just used ashe as a generic adc, any adc versus zed, is defenseless ever since they nerfed qss to not remove his ult. there is legitimately 0 counter play to his ult as an adc

Edge of DaybreakJul 7, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I just used ashe as a generic adc, any adc versus zed, is defenseless ever since they nerfed qss to not remove his ult. there is legitimately 0 counter play to his ult as an adc

So what you are saying is if zed catches an adc alone he has a high chance of killing them. You do realize that is the point of him as a champion right? Also yeah he built QSS. If he doesnt ashe would just stun him and walk away.

Violet RavenJul 7, 20163 votes

{quoted}

So what you are saying is if zed catches an adc alone he has a high chance of killing them. You do realize that is the point of him as a champion right? Also yeah he built QSS. If he doesnt ashe would just stun him and walk away.

Sorry, dont twist the words please, you dont have to be alone. The range on his ult and the mobility his shadows provide doesnt mean she has to be alone. And please read wtf, not zed using qss. qss used to remove zeds ult but they nerfed it so now zed can r->q and unless you have heal your'e almost guaranteed dead. team mates around you or not they cant react to an untargettable champion. Especially at low elo

Edge of DaybreakJul 7, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Sorry, dont twist the words please, you dont have to be alone. The range on his ult and the mobility his shadows provide doesnt mean she has to be alone. And please read wtf, not zed using qss. qss used to remove zeds ult but they nerfed it so now zed can r->q and unless you have heal your'e almost guaranteed dead. team mates around you or not they cant react to an untargettable champion. Especially at low elo

Sorry but if i have teammates with CC zed most likely isnt going to have time to just go in on me for free. since you used ashe i was giving an example of what would happen if ashe got ulted by zed. Mostly any adc with hard cc is going to just pop it on you and then just walk away. in a team fight he would just explode. You do need to realize that zed is completely targetable at any point that he is actually killing you. worse. he gives you almost a second to react before he is even dealing any damage. Sure low elo loses to zed. low elo loses to anything. hell id bet to wager you are bronze or silver just by reading your post. Yep low silver. Zed isnt even a problem until you reach like decent plat or higher.

Violet RavenJul 7, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Sorry but if i have teammates with CC zed most likely isnt going to have time to just go in on me for free. since you used ashe i was giving an example of what would happen if ashe got ulted by zed. Mostly any adc with hard cc is going to just pop it on you and then just walk away. in a team fight he would just explode. You do need to realize that zed is completely targetable at any point that he is actually killing you. worse. he gives you almost a second to react before he is even dealing any damage. Sure low elo loses to zed. low elo loses to anything. hell id bet to wager you are bronze or silver just by reading your post. Yep low silver. Zed isnt even a problem until you reach like decent plat or higher.

So the coutnmer play comes down solely to the competence and skillset of your team mates? Also since youve resorted to judgement purely by rank im done with this discussion lol

Violet RavenJul 7, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Sorry but if i have teammates with CC zed most likely isnt going to have time to just go in on me for free. since you used ashe i was giving an example of what would happen if ashe got ulted by zed. Mostly any adc with hard cc is going to just pop it on you and then just walk away. in a team fight he would just explode. You do need to realize that zed is completely targetable at any point that he is actually killing you. worse. he gives you almost a second to react before he is even dealing any damage. Sure low elo loses to zed. low elo loses to anything. hell id bet to wager you are bronze or silver just by reading your post. Yep low silver. Zed isnt even a problem until you reach like decent plat or higher.

Also you have played <10 matches in season 6, havent played ranked since season 4, and even then were low gold so please dont gimme your judgemental bullshit like youre some diamond god that knows the balance and state of the game

zlumpyJul 7, 20163 votes

Not even alone. In the middle of a team fight he can dump .5 seconds to 1 second of dps on an adc and kill them unless they are fed and he isn't.

LatetotheRaceJul 7, 20163 votes

Gotta get that zhonyas now... cause riot's huge middle finger.

GayFluffyUnicornJul 7, 20162 votes

You have steraks, GA, flash/heal/barrier, QSS is still an option considering Zed slows, Talon slows, Leblanc slows (well most of the time you are dead before the slow even applies but still), rengar stun/slow, eve slow. ADCs get babysitted most of the time by their support and in teamfights there should be enough peel. If you wander alone botlane and push until T2 turret you shouldn't be surprised about a wild zed feasting on your blood.

Violet RavenJul 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You have steraks, GA, flash/heal/barrier, QSS is still an option considering Zed slows, Talon slows, Leblanc slows (well most of the time you are dead before the slow even applies but still), rengar stun/slow, eve slow. ADCs get babysitted most of the time by their support and in teamfights there should be enough peel. If you wander alone botlane and push until T2 turret you shouldn't be surprised about a wild zed feasting on your blood.

I will give you that, i sometimes forget about ga simply because i build it usually 6th (sometimes 5th). Steraks i used to spam and im not sure why i stopped. but the rest, i just feel like his 30 sec ult cd shouldnt have the ability to keep my flash/heal on cd and then i have to play a whole different game in order to not die. but thats league, i guess when they say git gud they just mean adapt.

GayFluffyUnicornAug 18, 20161 votes

Zed won't have 30 sec cd ult >.> 50 at full CDR. And building GA as third item after IE, any Zeal and boots is very benificial.