Caitlyn's kit is pretty overloaded for an ADC to be honest.

Kaisa is Hot·Dec 23, 2016·86 votes·4,753 views

Let's look at some of her features

Range : 650 Ratios : 170% rank 5 Q, R 200% Bonus AD, Passive, about 110% bonus physical damage with an IE, Runaans and Shiv, increased by another 70% plus 190 if the target steps on a trap. Mobility : Her 90 Caliber Net gives her some ok mobility Utility : Spammable traps on a low cooldown and low CD late game.

TL;DR Overall Caitlyn has some form of range, high ratios, high bases, mobility, and utility in her kit. Then you add in the crits, healing, and all the other shit she does and it makes her very difficult to deal with. Especially mid to late game, she chunks 70% of your HP with one headshot and just heals up all her health cause of how well runaans and BT stack.

I'm not crying about this champion, but she has a high pick rate with a high winrate, there is a design flaw somewhere.

121 Comments

Chamuel85Dec 23, 201629 votes

They built in a 'weakness' into her kit. She has no 'real AS steroid' like most ADCs, so her 'mid game' is 'poor'. However, her early and late are good.

EDIT: I don't 'think' that I used 'enough' ' marks..'''''''''' God my communication is bad this morning.

MunchCrunchLunchDec 23, 20165 votes

???? Pound to Pound caitlyn is better mid game than almost all other carries.

DroogzyDec 23, 201621 votes

Mid game she loses to virtually any ADC in a 1v1 or teamfight due to lack of any innate on demand AS/AD steroids which shines/at its strongest in the mid-game with Runaan/IE.

And just because I know this will be your first response, no, her headshot is not on demand. In a 1v1 she'll get maybe one or if she's lucky two headshot procs off in mid-game 1v1 which won't be doing that much damage, v.s. someone like Lucian, Vayne, Twitch, MF, Tristana, Ezreal, or Jinx.

You know, basically the entire ADC pool?

Teamfight, she may get more off but they won't be hitting like a cannonball at this point. Not only that, her seige potentially at only 2-3 items leaves a lot to be desired.

The problem with Cait that makes her appear so strong is the fact that its difficult to gauge when mid-game is happening, because her mid-game IS pretty pathetic, her base damage on all her abilities are pretty abysmal, she doesn't have enough damage items just yet to hold out on her own, and she's not quite strong enough to seige at the mid-game. And she has no steroids to hide said weaknesses.

She effectively can't do anything at mid-game if she's not fed, but people don't understand how to abuse it. Or she'll get fed early game which then translates into completely by-passing her weak mid-game point.

In order to curb her frustration, they need to shift her power budget to make her stronger in mid-game and weaker in either early/late, as it stands right now, its difficult to gauge her low point and punish her for it.

The way I see it, I'd rather see her late game power shifted to mid-game, being able to stack her traps the way she can in seiging at late game is just bull shit IMO, you can play around it for sure, doesn't make it less irritating however.

Or take the headshot ability off of her E, its a mobility spell and it slows, that's enough utility for it to make a massive impact that it does not need such a large offensive capability in late game.

Or take the opposite route and power her into a hyper carry seiging ADC dream and make her early game weaker. Though I don't think this is the right route as one reason why she's powerful early is due to her 650 attack range which you can't really mess around with outside of gutting her base stats.

CurlyCrusaderDec 23, 20161 votes

Have you ever seen a Caitlyn hit her passive-e-w combo midgame? She wins any 1v1 to anyone but Vayne.

SaiannaDec 23, 20161 votes

######(shush, they just try to make Cait look weak/fine, so she won't get nerfed. Leave them be and what's most important: don't anger them, otherwise you'll cause major shitstorm)

DroogzyDec 24, 20162 votes

Never played Caitlyn, rarely play ADC and when I do, I play either Corki or Ezreal, since they fit my style of play better. Hell I don't think I even have rank 1 mastery on Caitlyn.

I haven't touched Caitlyn in years so what would I gain from defending her? Nothing, this is just based on my own experience of playing against her.

It's just understanding that when I as Ezreal at mid game with charged tear and IBG, can take her down in a 1v1 duel when she has runaan/I.E., or Corki once he has triforce outduels a two item Caitlyn.

SaiannaDec 24, 20161 votes

Because each ADC works on different settings.

You've said Cait lacks AD/AS steroids, which is wrong. Her AD steroid lies in her passive, trap and net. She doesn't attack faster, she simply hits harder (and that is ALOT harder).

In 1v1 she might lose, but her power comes from not from duels, but her range, ability to cleave trough squishy targets with her "soft" combos and overall safety that no other ADC can compete with tbh.

That being said she indeed does too good for an ADC. I wouldn't want her gutted. i always enjoyed playing her and i still believe her ultimate belongs to the weaker ones.

Her trap-HS-crit s too powerful with just an IE and her animation cancelling combos make no goddamn sense (nor never did). on top of that trap spam under enemy turret. that's pure toxic mechanic.

DroogzyJan 3, 20171 votes

Went on vacation so I didn't have much access to online in meantime, so I apologize for delayed response.

AD/AS steroids are essentially on-demand boosts to AD/AS respectively.

Meaning, as long as it is not on cool down, they can trigger it as they are pleased. Cait's traps are not considered an AS/AD as they require an opposing player to trigger it for her, which is why she loses virtually any mid game fight as she has no way to forcible proc her AD damage boost.

I agree that her soft combo can be too strong, her empowered AA - trap AA - Q - E AA is a considerable amount of damage. But keep in mind, think about how much set up that requires, and it requires a mistake to occur on the part of the opposing player that happens right when Cait builds her stacks for the head shot.

I did mention I'd like to see the empowered AA taken off of her net, she doesn't need it there and I also agreed, as I said in my original post that the fact she can stack traps under turret is just toxic and irritating.

Her animation cancel with the traps though is just bull shit, needs to be removed.

RalanrDec 23, 20162 votes

Doesn't she get bonus attack speed though?

DroogzyDec 23, 20162 votes

Yes but she has one of the lowest base attack speed of ADC at .568 base AS (Most other ADC usually have in the .63 to .65 range.), her AS growth though its normal to other ADC's.

It's 10% IIRC but it pretty much is insignificant due to early game it just barely puts her back on par with other ADC, mid it pretty much does nothing since she's useless, and late you don't really need that 10% anyways.

Basically her base stats take a hit for having that 10% AS bonus, which is pretty stupid. They might as well get rid of it and give her normal ADC scaling for AS values

On demand steroids suggests that champions have an ability or a passive they can trigger which will allow them to eclipse the normal amount of damage/attack speed for a brief moment compared to other ADC's, which Caitlyn's 10% AS passive does not do.

Ariel the CruelDec 24, 20161 votes

Basically her base stats take a hit for having that 10% AS bonus, which is pretty stupid. They might as well get rid of it and give her normal ADC scaling for AS values

You've got it backwards, actually. She has the AS bonus because her base AS is bad. She's supposed to be taking pot-shots (passive) from safety, not Shredding everything with DPS like other ADC's. The AS bonus is only there to keep her on par during the early game, while the base AS reduces effectiveness of AS items.

Think of it like an early version of Jhin's passive.

DroogzyJan 3, 20171 votes

Fair enough, thanks for the correction.

chipndip1Dec 23, 20161 votes

Then you realize she gets an AA reset on kit-based headshots anyway so even that's out the door...

DroogzyDec 24, 20161 votes

? Most ADC have some form of an AA reset, this isn't unique to Caitlyn. ADC typically have some form of AA reset in their kit to offset time loss from using abilities over auto attacking. Since come late game, many ADC would never use abilities if AA reset didn't exist due to the high AS they have in late game at full build.

To use a classic example, Vayne gets her AA reset on her tumble since if she didn't, she would never use tumblr come late game, ever, as it would drastically cut her DPS down if she didn't have an AA reset.

Now whether this is healthy game play design or not is an entirely different discussion.

Point is, she's hardly special in that regard. Nor is her "reset" an actual genuine reset but rather a way of making up for damage loss when she used her net to E backwards.

Chamuel85Dec 24, 20161 votes

Caitlyn has an AA reset. Vayne does. Who else? NOt trying to be a dick. Just curious. I know Jinx/Lucian/Tristana/Ezreal/MF/Twitch don't.

Faceroll TacticsDec 24, 20161 votes

Sivir with W Graves after E I think kog maw W resets but not entirely sure

Chamuel85Dec 24, 20161 votes

Forgot about Sivir. I didn't think Graves was an AA reset. Thanks! Not sure on Kog either.

Ariel the CruelDec 24, 20161 votes

Kog W reset was removed. Lucian Dash resets Quinn E resets (dash animation is so long you're not likely to notice after lvl 6) Teemo Q Jayce used to have one on his AS steroid, I think it was removed - not sure.

Umbra IoniaDec 24, 20161 votes

Jayce W still does.

Also: MissFortune Q i think.

DroogzyJan 3, 20171 votes

Sorry, went on vacation with limited access, I apologize for the late response but I see some of the others offered examples of AA resets.

Jinx MIGHT have an AA reset when she switches her guns? I could be completely wrong on this one though so don't quote me.

Lucian has dash reset.

Tristana does not, though it sorta makes sense for her not to have one as where would it go on her kit? Rapid Fire is an AS steroids, wouldn't be an AA reset in any way. Rocket Jump has a delayed timer, wouldn't go there. Explosive charge would be too strong with an AA reset, for a skill who's max damage relies on AA, if an AA reset was added on, it'd need to be changed to detonate in 5 AA instead of 4.
Buster shot knocks her targets back, AA reset would be useless and an unnecessary drain on her power budget.

Ezreal's Q functions as an AA and is considered in some sense, a 'soft' AA reset.

MF's Q is an AA reset.

Twith does not have one largely because he doesn't need one, his stealth and his contaminate are both skills that presumably would be done before AA and expunge/spray and pray don't interrupt the flow of his combat enough to warrant an AA reset.

There are others as well.

Are you talking about her net AA or her trap AA though? Because her trap AA reset is bull shit and needs to be removed.

Sexy Jack RabbitDec 23, 201613 votes

Caitlyn's kit is about as overloaded as Vaynes, Lucians and Jhin. She's not really got much of an overloaded kit, she's just an obnoxious champion. She's not really got high Bases either, 190 and 230 damage from her Q and E aren't really impressive for non-spammable abilities. Tristana is a good example of an ADC with high bases.

There's not really a flaw in her design, to be honest she has one of the most solid designs of all Marksman. it's just that she might be a little overtuned atm.

Lowering the Ratio on her Q, and increasing the CD on her E could be plenty to bring her back in lane. Also it might stop people from thinking she's some hyper mobile ADC, when really she's an immobile ADC with a short distance dash.

That or massively changing the recharge time on her Traps, so she can be brought back to maxing Q first. 45 / 32.5 / 20 / 12.5 / 10 is insane in regards to CD I will agree. She loses 12.5 seconds off of her recharge time after putting 2 points into it.

LightSwordDec 23, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Caitlyn's kit is about as overloaded as Vaynes, Lucians and Jhin. She's not really got much of an overloaded kit, she's just an obnoxious champion. She's not really got high Bases either, 190 and 230 damage from her Q and E aren't really impressive for non-spammable abilities. Tristana is a good example of an ADC with high bases.

There's not really a flaw in her design, to be honest she has one of the most solid designs of all Marksman. it's just that she might be a little overtuned atm.

Lowering the Ratio on her Q, and increasing the CD on her E could be plenty to bring her back in lane. Also it might stop people from thinking she's some hyper mobile ADC, when really she's an immobile ADC with a short distance dash.

That or massively changing the recharge time on her Traps, so she can be brought back to maxing Q first. 45 / 32.5 / 20 / 12.5 / 10 is insane in regards to CD I will agree. She loses 12.5 seconds off of her recharge time after putting 2 points into it.

This ^

Particularly the part about the traps, if the traps weren't spammable ~~Level 9~~ late game (even if it meant lowering the cd at lower levels) I wouldn't have such a problem with Caitlyn.

THE RlVER KlNGDec 23, 20165 votes

I stopped reading when you said Jhin isn't overloaded

BlakiepugDec 23, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fYEtOIla,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2016-12-23T15:07:02.353+0000)

I stopped reading when you said Jhin isn't overloaded

I literally made a thread comparing all of the aspects of both Azir and Jhin's kits yesterday and Jhin's portion has easily twice as much as what is listed for Caitlyn here and none of it is dependent on his scaling or purchasable items lol.

MelledoneusDec 23, 20163 votes

He only has 4 bullets stop being a curmudgeon.

THE RlVER KlNGDec 23, 20169 votes

the 4th bullet is a guaranteed crit that deals bonus damage based on the target's missing health he gains a fuckton of movement speed every time he crits or roots a champion with a W he has perpetually increased AD that increases even further with attack speed and crit chance he has waveclear, poke, and traps, and aside from Ashe ult, both of the longest-ranged CC's in the game his traps spawn on champions he kills. These traps slow and deal a fuckton of damage he can root you from massive range and keep you permaslowed from even longer as well, with each shot being an execute, on top of his passive one

ADCs are a class whose kits are relatively simple, since they are mostly auto-attack reliant. Jhin blows that concept out of the water, with both his auto-attacks and spells being ridiculously overloaded.

CookyPrinceDec 23, 20162 votes

Jhin's a champ for people who don't play adc, those people who don't play adc then complain about caitlyn without knowing her strengths or weaknesses.The only part I'd change about her is her traps and their scaling along with the hidden traps behind the towers

A BanditoDec 23, 20164 votes

Yes, he has huge AD. If he didn't he'd be garbage, because he has no attack speed. Stop saying "fuckton" to make things sound terribly OP. His traps are pretty bad. Also, his ult shots are very easy to juke out. Play a few games of Jhin and you'll notice.

THE RlVER KlNGDec 23, 20162 votes

The fourth attack is guaranteed to critically strike, dealing 15 / 20 / 25% of the target's missing health bonus physical damage.

Taken directly from the wiki.

TreyhovaDec 23, 20161 votes

I disagree with the waveclear part. His waveclear is pretty bad compared to other ADCs. Also, you should specify that his ult slows and his W roots in the post.

THE RlVER KlNGDec 24, 20162 votes

ADCs aren't supposed to have waveclear in the first place. All of his spells are AoE, which is a lot more than other ADCs can say.

A BanditoDec 24, 20161 votes

Adcs aren't supposed to have waveclear? Caitlyn Ashe Sivir Jinx Tristana

THE RlVER KlNGDec 24, 20161 votes

Exactly, they shouldn't. It should be a niche thing on a champ like Sivir. Allowing ADCs to clear large waves or have AoE threat is contrary to their design.

A BanditoDec 24, 20161 votes

How is it contrary to their design? They're great at sieging and they have strong, consistent ranged damage. They should totally have waveclear.

THE RlVER KlNGDec 24, 20161 votes

Then what is a mage supposed to do? When ADC's have their damage with no cooldown, cost, or drawback, also being way better at taking objectives and turrets, why should they also get AoE damage and waveclear?

ADCs should have something they AREN'T good at dude.

Their design is fragile damage dealers that require a support character to help them function in the lane. They should not push well because they already take towers so fast. Mages do not take towers well and that is why they usually have more AoE damage and / or waveclear.

MelledoneusDec 25, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fYEtOIla,comment-id=000100010001000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-24T02:36:11.148+0000)

Then what is a mage supposed to do? When ADC's have their damage with no cooldown, cost, or drawback, also being way better at taking objectives and turrets, why should they also get AoE damage and waveclear?

ADCs focus more on single target damage even if your name is Corki. Sure, they can get some AoE and waveclear, but it's not nearly as potent as a mage's. Viktor and Syndra can clear a wave faster than a Tristana with Runaan's because they're mages.

ADCs should have something they AREN'T good at dude.

I hate ADCs as much as the next guy, but they're not the Lee Sin of classes. They can't engage, peel, tank, drop aggro in the middle of a fight, dive a backline, be a front line, absorb CC, or charge through the enemy team like a fucking berserker being a general menace.

Their design is fragile damage dealers that require a support character to help them function in the lane. They should not push well because they already take towers so fast. Mages do not take towers well and that is why they usually have more AoE damage and / or waveclear.

Mages take turrets fine. Their AP translates into harder hitting autos on structures. Tristana and Jhin are the only ADCs that hit turrets specially hard, and they don't compare to Ziggs, who can flipping EXECUTE a turret.

TreyhovaDec 24, 20161 votes

Ult and W are not AoE.

NineTailedMysticDec 24, 20162 votes

Ult is AoE for minions, W pierces minions and only stops at first champion hit just like his ult.

MelledoneusDec 24, 20161 votes

Because I'm going to use Jhin's ultimate to farm.

NineTailedMysticDec 25, 20161 votes

Waveclear is waveclear. Just ask Lux :^)

MelledoneusDec 25, 20161 votes

Jhin's ult is not on a pseudo 30 second cooldown.

NineTailedMysticDec 25, 20161 votes

No, but the guy I replied to said W and R aren't AoE for the purposes of waveclear, and well, they are. Whether or not you use R for waveclear is on you.

MelledoneusDec 25, 20161 votes

If you use W and E for waveclear as Jhin, you're gonna run out of mana before you hit level 4 and miss a fuckton of CS with his cast times. Jhin's W does pitiful damage, and his E is a slight tickle early game. Not to mention since he lacks any real steroids in his kit, he can't really duel, only do one auto poke trades with his fourth shot, so he needs W and E for defense and a potential moment to get into range to get his damage off.

Since Jhin has only four shots on .65 attack speed with a 3 second reload time, he needs his Q to pick up CS, and even if you only use Q to farm you burn through your mana faster than a Draven who presses Q whenever it's up.

Jhin has glaring weaknesses that become obvious once you play him. Suggesting the supports are equal, Jhin will NOT win a 1v1 against you, even if ahead. He needs to ramp up his strong moments and poke you until he can execute you. Caitlyn destroys him, Draven eats him alive, Vayne can chase and eviscerate him, and Jinx will destroy him so hard it will spur the imagination of fan fiction authors.

CurlyCrusaderDec 23, 20165 votes

Except 4th shot does do % missing hp dmg.

MelledoneusDec 24, 20161 votes

And that's where most of its damage comes from. Jhin needs his target to be low before he goes in for the kill, and relies heavily on his teammates to do the fighting while he snipes from the back.

Jhin's normal range is pitiful, his mobility is non-existent, and his damage is telegraphed and slow. The only thing he has going for him is damage.

Meanwhile someone like Caitlyn has range, reliable zoning CC, similar crit damage to Jhin (disregarding execution damage) a guaranteed lock-on damage ultimate, and self-peel.

Every ADC is different. I can go on and on about how Kalista is broken except she is absolutely pitiful right now and just has her own niche strengths.

Umbra IoniaDec 24, 20161 votes

Wurf? He has more ad if he buys critic or AS, snare(R), slow(E,R), range(W,R), poke(Q), execute (4º bullet, R). Not overloaded? Also he has speed whenever critic.

JackMcSnipeyzDec 23, 201610 votes

So now we use ratios to make kits sound overloaded ? Cmon i can make WW kit sound overloaded that way.

Regardless, i dont think her E should proc headshot, it already is an escape+ a slow, the headahots adds a needlessly offensive side to this (previously fine) defensive ability.

IA9hRfpP5qDec 23, 20165 votes

Twitch

Illâoi Evê SiônDec 23, 20163 votes

All they need to do is replace her passive with an Attack Damage ratio instead of a Critical Strike + Critical Damage ratio.

LovelleDec 23, 20161 votes

I hate how, late game, you have to be tanky in order to clear her traps or she'll shoot off half your hp bar. Even a tank can have trouble clearing 3 or more of her traps when she's around full build.