The Problem with Rengar is a Problem with the Identity of Assassins

Troll for Trump··3 votes·390 views

Riot has said that assassins are supposed to get in and out of fights after killing targets that are out of position.

The problem with old Rengar is that he would 100-0 people out of stealth.

Assassins are supposed to kill carries by 100-0ing them. If they kill the carries to slow, the carries will get healed, shielded, peeled, or lifesteal. Kill them too quickly, and the carry feels that it is unfair. Kill them too slowly, and the assassin feels cheated. This is the problem with the 100-0 part. The assassins offer no utility or tanking for their team, only dmg. Their goal is to 100-0 carries, as quickly as possible. Without this, carries would run rampant.

As seen here by Riot, they wanted to make assassins more fair by increasing their skill ceiling. The problem with this is that, when you get someone who's good at that assassin, the target will get even less time to outplay them, because the skilled player will be able to fully utilize their kit to kill the target in an even faster time than an unskilled player. Once again, look at Old Rengar. He was relatively easy to pick up, but hard to master. If you didn't do the mid-air Es, or triple Qs, you could still kill people, but it would take more time. Once you mastered those mechanics, you could kill the squishy targets in less than half a second. If Riot were to want to balance assassins based on skill ceilings, they would have to balance around the high-skilled players, treating the playerbase in a similar way to Yasuo or Riven. That tends to not only make the champion unattractive to newer players, but also tends to give the advanced playerbase a bad name, while still having that "unfairness." Purely raising skill ceiling does not fix the game health problem of playing with assassins, but only makes it more interesting to learn how to play as an assassin.

So, Riot forcefully extend the burst time of assassins, adding longer cast times, cast animations, delayed abilities (LB passive, Talon W), etc. The problem with THIS approach is that it messes up the skilled playerbase, who feel cheated for mastering their champion. Before you can even get out your burst combo, you get ccd, or your target gets shielded or healed. This provides the people playing against the assassin more counterplay, but the people playing as the assassin a feeling of being cheated. Riot, once again referencing, the "Road to Preseason: Assassin Update" post, wanted to give the ability for assassin targets to "fire back." When assassins go in for a target, however, it's always one-side. Either the target doesn't fire back and dies, or they fire back and the squishy assassin gets blown up (when the assassin can't get blown up even when the target fires back, you end up with bruiser or tank assassins: Tank Fizz, Tank Ekko, Bruiser Rengar). There can't be a grey area for firing back. There should not be reactive measure to an assassin going in, as there should be preventative ones. This is why extending the burst time of assassins usually will backfire gameplay health wise.

By doing a combination of increasing skill ceiling and burst time, both sides would be appealed. But the right balance needs to be struck; too long of a burst time makes the assassin not feel like an assassin at all, and more like a bruiser or a mage. As a result, people will build for those champs in their new, redefined, better class. This is the case of LB and new Rengar. I feel like what has been done with assassins, has been less of increasing their skill ceiling, and just adding more, new, complicated, "stuff." The new assassins don't really feel more mechanically difficult than before; they just have new toys to play with, becoming "flashy," as Riot would describe it.

The skill ceiling of assassins needs to be further raised, and the burst times need to be adjusted individually for assassins.

The 2nd part is the "out of stealth" part. Assassins need ways to get to their target, and to get out. But they should not be the ones engaging fights. That is what many assassins do, especially when ahead, and what Rengar, both in his current and past iteration, does. Assassins wait for the carry to be vulnerable, and then kill them. More emphasis should be put on this.

I think assassins were most healthy when you had preventative countermeasures to their engagement, back when you could have much more vision on the map.

While you could try to balance assassins kits individually, it would be very difficult to appeal to both the carries and assassin players. The quickest, best solution, would be adding in preventative measures that can be used by everyone (encouraging team effort to defeat assassins) by having more vision once again on the map. This could also possibly help with the issue of constantly ganking or camping junglers; increase the ward limit (but don't make them unlimited), and try to make it easier for everyone to get wards on the map. Supports should not be the only ones warding.

(Wards shouldn't be unlimited, because that encourages ward-botting, as one person just wards for everyone. A ward limit needs to be there, but it should be higher, so there can be more wards on the map overall. There needs to be an easier way to get wards; item 3711 is a good idea, but is relatively unused. Bring tracker's knife-types of items to other laners so the map can be filled with wards, and the assassins need to be more careful about their positioning, when to go in, and when they can come in from an unwarded area)

8 Comments

Erockandroll2 votes

I don't think Riot is going to add a ton of extra vision, without also adding additional countermeasures. (Also take note that Duskblade, a key assassin item, can help remove vision.) I also wouldn't be surprised if the extra vision was slowing down games. (Cause it meant fewer mistakes) And even if you matched that with vision denial, it still takes more time just to contest the vision. (Recalling past season were people getting excited seeing the pro's destroy wards.)

The whole Assassin Fantasy is kinda at odds with the game itself. Considering that a real life Assassin would either kill his targets from the shadows, disguised as their targets friend, or snipe them from a safe distance. But with the exception of a sniper, Assassins don't really work in battle field application. In game play terms, they are at a disadvantage in a team fight. But being useless in a team fight is problematic if teamfighting is a majority of game play. (Or at least the fact that a teamfight could mean win or loss in the end game) Unless Assassins had some way to make such a scenario less likely. (Like say, if they could split push real well.)

Kinda my biggest pet peeves with Assassins is if they are designed to catch people out of position, they become reliant on their opponents f*cking up, Which is why I think they should have more ability to make their own plays. (Like Ahri or Nid, who can start a play by landing a skill shot) Though I remember for a long time, Assassins weren't picked in Pro play, due to how little people actually presented opportunities.

Lastly, Assassins are pretty damn meta dependent. The fact that they are designed to kill squishy targets, means that their targets and their ability to influence the battle are dependent on the enemy comp. Of coarse the ADC is a prime target, anyone else? Maybe the support, if they are a squishy healer. And perhaps your mid lane opponent. (if they're not a battle mage, or otherwise building defensive.) But if the enemy comp only presents their ADC as squishy, your kinda screwed.

Troll for Trump1 votes

I don't think Riot is going to add a ton of extra vision, without also adding additional countermeasures. (Also take note that Duskblade, a key assassin item, can help remove vision.) I also wouldn't be surprised if the extra vision was slowing down games. (Cause it meant fewer mistakes) And even if you matched that with vision denial, it still takes more time just to contest the vision. (Recalling past season were people getting excited seeing the pro's destroy wards.)

Yeah, Riot has been continuously speeding up games for a while. If there are a lot of complaints are about assassins killing people out of nowhere, it would be helpful to be able to see the assassins, so you wouldn't have them appearing out of nowhere; this used to be possible with pink wards. It probably won't happen, though, as you said.

The whole Assassin Fantasy is kinda at odds with the game itself. Considering that a real life Assassin would either kill his targets from the shadows, disguised as their targets friend, or snipe them from a safe distance. But with the exception of a sniper, Assassins don't really work in battle field application. In game play terms, they are at a disadvantage in a team fight. But being useless in a team fight is problematic if teamfighting is a majority of game play. (Or at least the fact that a teamfight could mean win or loss in the end game) Unless Assassins had some way to make such a scenario less likely. (Like say, if they could split push real well.)

Assassins can't push super easily, because part of their is roaming, and, if all of them could push waves easily, they can just outpush mages and keep roaming. This is most easily seen in current Talon, when he just Ws+Tiamats and starts parkouring all over the map; if the other assassins could do that, it'd require taking parts out of their kit. I think Talon is allowed to do this because of his "gimmick" being roaming constantly. Riot made lethality work on turrets, so maybe they want them to split? (The Ap assassins have good waveclearing tools in their kits, but always tend to be lacking in some other part. Their itemization is poor too)

Kinda my biggest pet peeves with Assassins is if they are designed to catch people out of position, they become reliant on their opponents f*cking up, Which is why I think they should have more ability to make their own plays. (Like Ahri or Nid, who can start a play by landing a skill shot) Though I remember for a long time, Assassins weren't picked in Pro play, due to how little people actually presented opportunities.

As I said in the OP, assassins can't be the ones engaging or making their own plays, because then the victim feels "helpless." The counterplay to assassins should be preventative; staying in position, and warding. I often find myself unable to enter fights because of the entire enemy team being too bunched up, so any time I'd go in, I'd get killed off immediately; if assassins had the capability to engage themselves, they'd be disregarding tanks and frontliners altogether, which are supposed to be their counters.

Lastly, Assassins are pretty damn meta dependent. The fact that they are designed to kill squishy targets, means that their targets and their ability to influence the battle are dependent on the enemy comp. Of coarse the ADC is a prime target, anyone else? Maybe the support, if they are a squishy healer. And perhaps your mid lane opponent. (if they're not a battle mage, or otherwise building defensive.) But if the enemy comp only presents their ADC as squishy, your kinda screwed.

They are comp dependent, both on their own team and the enemy team. I can rarely pick an assassin, because the team either lacks a frontliner, or AP. The enemy team may have too many tanks or disengagers, making picking an assassin a bad idea. Because of how little things assassins offer to their team outside of damage, they are niche picks, and that isn't very fun for assassin players.

Zero Skill Tank1 votes

Without this, carries would run rampant.

No. The game is perfectly fine fine without assassins, everyone and their mother is capable of killing a carry. The defining trait of a carry champion is being easy to kill. Heck - 3 months ago they complained about beign one-shot by full-tank Nautilus - and they were not wrong.

Asssassin are there for - and only for - attracting less mature parts of playerbase with easy but flashy playstyle.

Troll for Trump1 votes

I think assassins are required to prevent things such as the ADC meta from occurring. You can burst ADCs really easily; assassins and mages can do it. What assassins do that mages can't is through mobility, so they can guarantee that they will do a ton of burst dmg to the ADC.

Otherwise, the ADC will just start draintanking the tanks/juggernauts etc. while bursting down the mages.

Without assassins, you'd have very little tools in the game to deal with ADCs.

Handy Sandy 1 votes

I think assassins were most healthy when you had preventative countermeasures to their engagement, back when you could have much more vision on the map.

YES

5050BS1 votes

I like your though process.

Yes Wards need to be looked at again and I like your thoughts on Assassins.

Basically assassins use Stealth to do their assassinations. Allowing for Some wards or Items or Abilities to disable the stealth allows you do defend vs the assassin but you cant have this everywhere or all the time so they still have their window. The damage should not be enough to 100-0 someone who builds defenses but SHOULD 100-0 a squishy that did not prepare to fight the Assassin.

Also Warding is NOT the Supports job.

Solidarius1 votes

item 2047 = counterplay vs Assassins

If an ADC or squishy mage is alone and out of position with no summs and they get 100-0 by an Assassin this is a good thing and should happen!!!

the thing is that ADC/MAGES and squishy targets have so many tools to not die if focused by assassin now that if you are that ADC/MAGE that dies you are just "bad" or lack map awareness and should be punished for it.

there are things in league that should not be "outplayed" if Veigar or Syndra want to press R and delete someone they should be able 2, play smart and build "item 3155

honestly what excuse do you have as an ADC/MAGE main when you have item 3026 item 3157 and a decent support on your team.

I agree with you that the Rengar problem is not his kit but with the "identity of assassins" in general

Troll for Trump1 votes

I agree with what you say, and feel that most ADCs die only when they're caught, and many have enough tools, either in their kit or through itemization from them and their teams to deal with their assassins.

But, people still continuously complain about assassins, even now, when none of them are particularly good, squishies always complain about assassins.

"ADC in 2k17"

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