People who complain about the Juggernaut reworks

ModCaptainMårvelous··24 votes·2,367 views

Are probably the same people who make long wall-of-text posts about how diversity is so bad.

These reworks have been out for less than a month. They have already been tweaked. However, instead of buckling down and thinking outside the box when dealing with someone like Darius/Skarner/Garen, they simply ask for nerfs. Bronze-through-Plat, Skarner and Garen are at the top of the leader board. Get to diamond+? They get erased from existence and Darius is like 10th place.

Do you know what will happen if we gut Skarner/Garen/Darius into oblivion? We'll go back to the same rotation of picks. Adding four champions who are actually competitive picks will have been for NOTHING. Oh hey, while we're arguing about win-rates, Heimer's been top of the leaderboards for MONTHS as a solo queue pick. Except nobody asks for nerfs, reworks, etc. Because he's not a problem in low tier games.

These reworks are a tipping point. Either Riot's going to listen to the community again, nerf it and we'll go back to the same old picks top lane...or they'll stand their ground, buckle down and say "Learn to deal with these champions. We've tweaked them enough. The rest is on you". It's getting super tiring to see stuff like THIS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAG6Wr5cKO8\

and have it be used as evidence for why Darius needs to be completely gutted.

30 Comments

Torkon7 votes

If a champion is a major issue from Bronze-Plat, they are a major issue, because that is the wide majority of the game. I know Riot just makes this game for LCS now, and expects us to watch and follow along, but c'mon. As for learning to outplay them, how do you learn to outplay Garen when he right clicks on you, presses Q to catch up, ignores your CC because it doesn't matter, then proceeds to E around you for 3 seconds then R for 400 true damage. Is the counter to just not play? Hope the Garen doesn't know how to build?

ModCaptainMårvelous5 votes

{quoted}

If a champion is a major issue from Bronze-Plat, they are a major issue, because that is the wide majority of the game. I know Riot just makes this game for LCS now, and expects us to watch and follow along, but c'mon.

They certainly don't make it for the top majority. If they did, we'd see a lot more buffs to guys like Yi or Akali.

As for learning to outplay them, how do you learn to outplay Garen when he right clicks on you, presses Q to catch up, ignores your CC because it doesn't matter, then proceeds to E around you for 3 seconds then R for 400 true damage. Is the counter to just not play? Hope the Garen doesn't know how to build?

1.) Don't be near enough for him to right click you. At 200 range, you shouldn't struggle with this. 2.) He's running at you, literally burning his slow-cleansing skill. Kite him, slow him now, snare him, don't waste your slow for when he can clense it. 3.) Ignore your CC. No. He doesn't do that. He lost his tenacity. He'll tank it but he won't ignore it.

If he's close enough to E and R you, you lost. Garen was smarter than you and you're to blame. The counter is to play SMART. Stay out of range. Pelt him with spells and keep him from using his passive. Play champions that set the engagement rules like Jayce, Nidalee, Quinn, etc. He's not broken because you let him get close, you played poorly BECAUSE he got close.

Torkon1 votes

What a backwards way to design a skill-based game.

ModCaptainMårvelous6 votes

I'm honestly unsure if that's sarcasm or seriousness.

Sulghunter1 votes

Quinn is sort of a weak-ish kiter against Garen because the Q strike will hit Quinn if you try to E off of him. That is why I always hit him with a blind before vaulting him. Strangley enough, Volibear and Singed can fling Quinn if she tries to vault of them.

Critmaster Garen7 votes

{quoted}

ignores your CC because it doesn't matter

this part is your problem. because its a plain lie.

Torkon3 votes

You act like CCing a decently farmed Garen as a mage is going to affect him in any way. Unless you're playing Malzahar, he's going to ignore it and keep coming. You either have your entire team or he rapes you.

NemeBro5 votes

{quoted}

You act like CCing a decently farmed Garen as a mage is going to affect him in any way. Unless you're playing Malzahar, he's going to ignore it and keep coming. You either have your entire team or he rapes you.

It's going to keep him from getting close.

So what, are you crying that you can't duel Garen as a squishy immobile mage?

Good. You offer much more utility, siege, and AOE damage than he does. You shouldn't be able to handle Garen alone.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

You act like CCing a decently farmed Garen as a mage is going to affect him in any way.

farm doesnt make up for the shortcomings of his kit. and he will still be susceptible to cc. you will probably deal less damage to him, but still be able to block him out of a fight.

"decently farmed" is such a relative term. it can mean anything between going even with a 150 cs at 20 minutes, to having a 50 cs lead on his opponent.

if youre saying, hes strong when hes fed from farming minions. congratulations youve just discovered the basics of this game.

JChaosMaster2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=x9YBvBAE,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-09-03T19:28:16.918+0000)

this part is your problem. because its a plain lie.

This isn't 100% a lie because I had to play against him ALOT in aram and nothing I could do would shut down his spinning. So even stunning him allowed him to get his black cleaver off on me.

Critmaster Garen5 votes

{quoted}

This isn't 100% a lie because I had to play against him ALOT in aram and nothing I could do would shut down his spinning. So even stunning him allowed him to get his black cleaver off on me.

aram is a 100% different game.

for one there arent any snowballs on summoners rift. but his passive is also ridiculously strong in a game where players cant recall.

while cc doesnt stop his spin, it still stops his ability to move while spinning. so yes, its 100% a lie. aram simply doesnt count. if he needs nerfs on the murder bridge, then its up to riot to balance champions for gamemodes individually.

Teridax686 votes

To be fair, Garen / Mordekaiser / Skarner were all legitimately too strong following their reworks (Skar Skar especially was probably in one of the most OP states any champion had even been in), and Darius is a bit too good right now (though probably just due to his Q healing bug), but I agree with you that a lot of the complaints just boil down to people having their expectations defied. Riot took a bunch of poorly-scaling lane bullies, plus Skarner, and turned them into powerhouses truly capable of carrying throughout the late game. Until now, melee champions only had a real choice of either dealing tons of damage while being super-squishy, or being really tanky while dealing very little damage, and now that juggernauts are a thing and represent the epitome of tanky DPS, a lot of players are still not realizing that they can't win against them by just passively attacking them in melee range. I predict that people will eventually adapt to juggernauts and kite them a lot more, which might also reduce their success, but overall the juggernaut update opened up a whole new set of possibilities for fighters and comps, and is a major positive change the haters will likely just have to get used to.

Sulghunter1 votes

I can tolerate tanky DPS when it's those four because I know that I have a decent chance of kiting them if some team work is thrown into the mix. It is just extremely annoying when champs like these(Udyr ,Shyvana VolibearSejuani ) just run past my entire team, not giving two shits about an entire teams worth of damage and CC, bursting me as an adc down, and getting away with barely a bruise to show for it.

Hullabaloo9074 votes

You can like the reworks and still think they need to be tuned. Wierd, right? Plus, if a champ is a problem for the bottom 80% and not for the top 20%, its still a pretty good arguement to nerf or change them. Champs who are unseen in higher tiers and are problems in lower tiers of the game can be changed easier because it will keep the core balance of the game unchanged for the pros and such, while making the game more fun for a lot of people.

ModCaptainMårvelous5 votes

I'd be fine if people wanted tweaks. Except they don't. People want these reworks either reverted or absolutely gutted to the point of unviability.

And I 100% disagree with the "You can nerf for low tier and not high tier". Balance is a hyper delicate thing. You remove a component of an ability, now he/she/it is balanced in low tier but completely unviable or unusuable in high tier. As I said in the OP, there comes a point where you have to go "Enough is enough. We're not going to keep nerfing a champion so gold and below can stop crying".

Slamurai Jack4 votes

I love the new Juggernaughts because they're the perfect counter to "Death Ball" teams. I'm tired of playing against teams that just stack a shit ton of mobility, hard CC, and tankiness and just run over your carries without giving them really any chance to fight back. But go ahead, try to Death Ball against a team with Darius, Morde, and Vlad on it. Carries have been synonymous with squishy for far too long and anything that kicks anti-carries like Irelia in the balls is fine by me.

Valderis Vandala3 votes

LOL wow that video, fantastic. If only they took a few seconds to group, instead they surrendered. XD

Gixia8 votes

They were smart enough to realize they were too stupid to be able to win.

General Murica2 votes

Lowelo talking about viability@dia+ (and being wrong)

ModCaptainMårvelous4 votes

Check the win rates mate. High ELOs don't have an issue with these champions. Diamond and Master, only Darius (10th place win rate in Diamond) and Morde ( 6th place in Master) are an issue.

Of course if you'd prefer I can get you in touch with people in higher ELOs who can also point out how these champions aren't balance nightmares that people preach them to be.

Never said I was high ELO. I'm simply the messenger. You can get mad at my job but facts are facts.

General Murica1 votes

{quoted}

Check the win rates mate. High ELOs don't have an issue with these champions. Diamond and Master, only Darius (10th place win rate in Diamond) and Morde ( 6th place in Master) are an issue.

Of course if you'd prefer I can get you in touch with people in higher ELOs who can also point out how these champions aren't balance nightmares that people preach them to be.

Never said I was high ELO. I'm simply the messenger. You can get mad at my job but facts are facts.

Pls do so, im diamond, garen is doing more than fine at dia, so is skarner.

54% w/l is so low.

Malix Farwin2 votes

The problem is, you can aruge rather they are balanced or not, people are still going to ban them and if you happen to like playing those champions then i would think you would at least consider some kind of nerf to them. Personally i could care less if they nerf skarner or not seeing as i will ensure that he is banned anyways and that is basically what it comes down to.

Hawkefire2 votes

My issue with the Juggernaut reworks is actually different than the usual grievances that you see people shouting out so often.

Garen: I just don't like the villain mechanic. Punishes players for good play, and can even reward Garen for a missplay, I don't like that.

Skarner: His passive is now incredibly conditional, and only takes part on specific sections of the map. Is he overtuned as hell right now? Yes. But once they nerf his numbers and tone things down....what real benefit does his passive really grant him?

Darius: My only issue with this one is numbers based. His Q is very cheap, and the heal it provides on such a short cooldown is actually pretty huge. That and the odd bug on it where you an double-cast it. Tone those #s down some (and increase the Q cost some), and fix that stupid bug, and I am pretty satisfied with this one.

Mordekaiser: I like this rework, and I also despise it. It feels quite fun to play, but I strongly dislike that it destroyed Mordekaiser's solo lane potential, where he traditionally laned and honestly where he truly belongs, it is where all his old mains generally played him, and I feel that taking that away from them was a real dick move. That, and I don't know how they will ever be able to truly balance Mordekaisers current kit without ending up making him useless, or a virtual god, in fact I think they made it even harder to balance his numbers than before.

Faded Lich2 votes

My only problem is with Garen's ability to deal insane amounts of damage while being unstoppably tanky and the fact mord is either raping people 1v5 or is a non-existent member of the team. Both of these things are problem and should be addressed :/ People keep saying "CC garen, easy" but here is a thing.

CC, it counters everyone (who doesn't have oranges, shhh.) IF the only answer to counter/beat an enemy is CC, because nothing else realistically works...then there is a problem. It's like saying "Just kill him!". Well, it is also equally true but equally bullshit,

Mr Sir Lebowski2 votes

LOL, surprise! someone 4-5 levels higher with carry potential can kill your team if you keep engaging badly with little to no teamwork.

I've seen lots of Yi's, Irelia's, Riven's, Yasuo's, Zed's, Tryndamere's, Kayle's, Vayne's, even Mundo's do this and not necessarily needing to be 4-5 levels ahead. Hell it took him quite a while to kill those guys considering how far ahead he was. People are just not used to seeing it done this way anymore. People have forgotten the days of a Mundo healing at low HP walking over your team when fed, they are only used to seeing penta kills from high damage carry's or duelists. Any ignite/grievous wounds or CC teamwork would have shut that down very quickly.

The Loveless1 votes

The only crime in that video is that Ali dropped to half of his mana bar after headbutt-pulverize

:( rework him next pls

Zhugan1 votes

Its almost like people at lower MMRs (generally) have no idea what kiting is, which is 100% the counter to basically every juggernaut. That and tanks/supports actually peeling the massive walls of steel and flesh that are juggernauts as they charge towards the squishies in an effort to murder them.

kile1471 votes

Fine, we don't have to nerf the juggernauts. Instead we get 10 bans so that we don't have to sacrifice our strategy specific bans in order to ban elo specific op champs.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

We've needed more than six bans for a while. There's honestly no argument there

kile1471 votes

That's really my major issue. I'm tired of not being able to ban champions who I don't want to play against (Irelia/Fizz/Riven) just because I have to ban champions who I cannot play against, that's a shitty choice to force people to make. I think that regardless of elo this is a problem and while it would ideally be solved by the balance team they have been making changes lately that make it worse and worse, so they either need to start balancing the game for the majority of players or they need to give us the tools to balance it ourselves (banning is a stronger cc than death).

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