Why melee carries are fundamentally feast or famine

Critkeeper·Nov 23, 2016·8 votes·857 views

The only pattern of contribution for melee carries in team fights is to dive at the enemy and kill an important target before dying. Ranged carries work by using range as a defensive tool, something not entirely within their control, something enemies and allies can fight over. I feel like the only way to have a healthy melee carry that isn't super binary is to give the melee carry a defensive tool that is as powerful and as contested as range rather than a bunch of extreme steroids or mobility. Perhaps something based on allies defending flanks?

23 Comments

AstôlfoNov 23, 20164 votes

Tenacity or reduction of any CC effect in general (not just what Tenacity grants) per nearby enemy champion, like what Irelia has, was a good idea I think.

Alternatively, reduction of damage taken from autoattacks or all ranged sources in general to help them overcome the massively broken advantage of range could work, perhaps scaling with number of enemy champions nearby as well.

Movement speed towards enemy champions (Vayne-esque) could also work.

RalanrNov 23, 20163 votes

It's usually some form of extreme mobility like Yasuo's E or even Yi's Q. Melee carries seem to have defensive mechanics to help them avoid being hit whereas ranged carries cover that with range.

These abilities however vastly waver based on the individual skill of the player and depending on their opponent or the meta as a whole they need to be very good at using their mobility well.

There are melee carries with other defensive mechanics. Juggernauts and champions like Kled rely on some form of durability (Kled is too mobile to be a juggernaut) to survive fights. Tryndamere just flat out refuses to die for 5 seconds (though I'd argue that this mechanic is unhealthy) and Kayle...Kayle basically functions as a ranged carry IMO.

Melee carries are effectively very dangerous to play in league and their reward is often less than that of a ranged carry. It's pretty hard to make one that isn't feast or famine because of this IMO.

CritkeeperNov 23, 20162 votes

{quoted}

It's usually some form of extreme mobility like Yasuo's E or even Yi's Q. Melee carries seem to have defensive mechanics to help them avoid being hit whereas ranged carries cover that with range.

These abilities however vastly waver based on the individual skill of the player and depending on their opponent or the meta as a whole they need to be very good at using their mobility well.

There are melee carries with other defensive mechanics. Juggernauts and champions like Kled rely on some form of durability (Kled is too mobile to be a juggernaut) to survive fights. Tryndamere just flat out refuses to die for 5 seconds (though I'd argue that this mechanic is unhealthy) and Kayle...Kayle basically functions as a ranged carry IMO.

Melee carries are effectively very dangerous to play in league and their reward is often less than that of a ranged carry. It's pretty hard to make one that isn't feast or famine because of this IMO.

The reason range works as a healthy defensive tool is because it can be contested-- it can work sometimes and still at other times not work so that enemy divers can close the gap and do something. Undying range can't really be contested, its just 5 seconds of can't die-- it either works perfectly or you didn't use it.

I think in order to have a good healthy melee carry we need to rethink their design from the ground up. They shouldn't have to dive people with absurd mobility and steroids, blow up something in the blink of an eye, and then likely die afterwards. That isn't a good design.

Instead, they should be focused on using some set of defensive tools that enemies can play around similar to how people play around range. The defensive tools shouldn't "always work perfectly when used" like undying rage. In fact, even though windwall is a bit less reliable than undying rage, I still think its a bit too reliable combined with yasuo's mobility.

What I'd rather see is something that is just as powerful as range as protecting you, with similar drawbacks. Range makes you effectively immune to a large swath of abilities and cc, namely those that aren't in range to affect you. A similar melee defensive mechanic would make you virtually immune to abilities that are too far away (like more than 400 range)

It would have to be something like untargetability to make it 1 for 1

MLDzXnRRRNov 23, 20163 votes

Melee carries are pretty bad: they can't take towers with their team and their teamfighting is also bad. Yasuo was made to be a viable melee carry, but he was too strong when people learned to play him, so they had to gut most of his kit - E recharge, base stats like hp and MS, some damage, shield strength. Even if the melee carries were viable with a way to teamfight and take towers, you could counter the melee carry team comp with CC mages + high burst damage team, because they are melee and it's easier to stun and focus them than the 500-600 range ADC. Also don't forget about the power creep - Trynda was still viable in Season 3 in LCS, but nowadays he is too 1-dimensional and doesn't bring anything to his team + we have OP CC bots botlane and midlane that can permaslow and permastun you.

BTW, someone like Jax or Trundle who is tanky and still melee DPS is way healthier design than the glass cannon melee DPS.

sit kidNov 23, 20161 votes

I wouldn't neccesarily call them healthier than the glass cannon ones, they certainly do generally better in teamfights than your glass cannon one due to them being able to soak more damage.

The problem is that i think our meta is too focused on teamfighting and less focused on split pushing. It doesnt feel rewarding to split push when you are leaving your team 4v5.

So i think adding something like damage reduction on towers when multible people are in the towerrange would make split pushung more rewarding in comparison

MLDzXnRRRNov 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't neccesarily call them healthier than the glass cannon ones, they certainly do generally better in teamfights than your glass cannon one due to them being able to soak more damage.

The problem is that i think our meta is too focused on teamfighting and less focused on split pushing. It doesnt feel rewarding to split push when you are leaving your team 4v5.

So i think adding something like damage reduction on towers when multible people are in the towerrange would make split pushung more rewarding in comparison

Summoner's rift is not that big map, so split pushing is not viable (compared to DOTA's map) Also splitpushing can be a really cancerous - winning laning phase and teamfight, but losing to a team with "rats" like Lycan, Nature's Prophet, all of the illusion heroes, Arc or Broodmother - is a really miserable experience. Even in that game splitpushing got nerfed super hard over the years , because teamfights are not only more interesting to watch (e-sports), but also more interactive

Hinagiku33Nov 23, 20161 votes

I agree that split pushing can feel like garbage on the receiving end.

I cannot agree with nerfing it as a strategy when some champs aren't allowed to be good for anything except split pushing. Any champion that has weak team-fighting becomes basically unplayable if split pushing is not a viable strategy.

sit kidNov 29, 20161 votes

I can agree that spitpushing is boring to watch, same champions getting skipped in champion select over and over because leaving your team 4v5 is just not fun either. I feel like it's teamfight or lose in LCS and even in my own games

Big LincolnNov 23, 20162 votes

Perhaps something based on allies defending flanks?

sounds gimmicky. i hate stuff that forces you to interact with your team

just let certain melee carries have hard CC or utility. they should offer more than just raw damage

CritkeeperNov 23, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=x2Y6if3W,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-11-23T15:29:42.315+0000)

sounds gimmicky. i hate stuff that forces you to interact with your team

just let certain melee carries have hard CC or utility. they should offer more than just raw damage

Range pretty much forces you to interact with your team though, and thats the reason RIOT can afford to make it powerful.

ErockandrollNov 23, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=x2Y6if3W,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-11-23T15:29:42.315+0000)

sounds gimmicky. i hate stuff that forces you to interact with your team

just let certain melee carries have hard CC or utility. they should offer more than just raw damage

Hard CC really defeats the purpose of a melee carry. Generally, any amount of CC on a Skirmisher, (like say Kled) puts them closer to a diver.

Utility and situational defenses on the other hand, can offer some out play potential, while giving your team a unique strength. For example Yasuo's windwall. while you can use it simply to block one major skill shot, the set up of the wall can be used tactically, like say, to prevent poke when pushing a tower. (Though some would call him oppressive for this)

If Skirmishers really did have some team focused utility they can offer, they can remain useful to the team even if they fall behind.

Critmaster GarenNov 23, 20162 votes

i wouldnt call range as a defensive tool particularly healthy.

the ideal scenario of a ranged carry, in fact the only scenario in which he can carry is when his opponent cant reach him and fight back and when the fight is entirely onesided in favour of the ranged carry.

their ideal scenario is tied to non interaction.

melee carries on the other hand always seek a direct confrontation. whenever they function they put themselves into the threat range of their opponent, which gives both sides the ability to play around each other. you will never fight a melee character without being able to fight back in some shape or form.

riven vs. fiora for example is at all stages of the game a skill matchup. its actually so much dependent on the players skills, that even a pretty decent gold advantage does not guarantee you constant domination over your opponent.

a fiora can be 5 kills ahead of a riven, but still die to her when she makes a mistake in a duel between them. the same goes for the other direction.

a melee vs. melee matchup with yasuo is usally decided by who manages to outposition and outplay who.

what youre critisizing is the melee vs. ranged matchup which is fundamentally broken in this game, due to the lack of a mechanic that counterbalances autoattack range. like turn speeds in dota.

jaymc1130Nov 23, 20161 votes

So, basically, you want Evelynn to have perma stealth? Bam! Issue solved. I'm surprised Rito listened to such a sensible idea.

RequiemsfireNov 23, 20161 votes

Well I believe a lot of people would agree that melee carries are dps glass cannons who dive into the enemy team to deal damage. If anyone ever played in the beta of league of legends they would realise just how powerful range champions were compared to any melee champion.

The defensive tools for melee carries consist of mainly abilities to get onto their target, deal a lot of damage while preventing kiting. However in practice these tools are often both unfair to play against and toxic to the game in general when they are strong/effective not just to range champions. Take the best example MasterYi .

Due to fundamental reasons, in league of legends a ranged carry is much healthier in design than a pure melee carry.

Critmaster GarenNov 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well I believe a lot of people would agree that melee carries are dps glass cannons who dive into the enemy team to deal damage. If anyone ever played in the beta of league of legends they would realise just how powerful range champions were compared to any melee champion.

there are different versions of melee carries.

they dont have to be glass cannons. certain divers and generally juggernauts are carries aswell.

RequiemsfireNov 23, 20161 votes

Then I'll use a better term, melee hypercarries. I don't believe a pure melee hypercarry could function in this game due to being fundamentally unfair.

I don't generally refer to juggernauts or divers as carries because even though they do deal a significant amount of damage whilst being tanky, their total damage output doesn't really compare to the glass cannons as such they generally do not serve as a primary damage dealer in a team composition.

Critmaster GarenNov 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Then I'll use a better term, melee hypercarries. I don't believe a pure melee hypercarry could function in this game due to being fundamentally unfair.

I don't generally refer to juggernauts or divers as carries because even though they do deal a significant amount of damage whilst being tanky, their total damage output doesn't really compare to the glass cannons as such they generally do not serve as a primary damage dealer in a team composition.

Darius tho

primary damage dealer of a teamcomp, comparable to ranged carries in dps output, fair design since he has some hooks in his kit to outplay him even when youre playing melee champs. (damage rampup with his passive countered by rotating through tanking him, the edge mechanic of his q etc.)

RequiemsfireNov 23, 20162 votes

In a game with competent players on both sides take for example competitive, Darius would serve a purpose by controlling a certain section and zoning his opponents with his presence. He's not the primary damage dealer but if the opponent disrespected him enough or their team was disorganised then Darius would get out of control and probably destroy them all.

I should clarify this applies more to organised play than solo queue because most champions problems can be solved by simply being better than your opponent.

Critmaster GarenNov 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

In a game with competent players on both sides take for example competitive, Darius would serve a purpose by controlling a certain section and zoning his opponents with his presence. He's not the primary damage dealer but if the opponent disrespected him enough or their team was disorganised then Darius would get out of control and probably destroy them all.

I should clarify this applies more to organised play than solo queue because most champions problems can be solved by simply being better than your opponent.

tell that to the teams who used him at season 5 worlds as a primary carry by building teamcomps around supporting him.

its not actually different to make an "enable the darius" comp from making a "protect the kog maw" comp.

his role hasnt changed since then. its just become more difficult to support him thanks to his q nerf, and how dominant ranged kiting was through season 6 until now, hence why it hasnt happened again since then. darius as a champion though is really made to ramp up his damage to the point where he can carry teams under the right circumstances.

RequiemsfireNov 23, 20161 votes

Yes, but that's when he was overturned and dominated in the meta.

Critmaster GarenNov 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yes, but that's when he was overturned and dominated in the meta.

you could say the same about kallista or other out of meta ranged carries.

darius design hasnt changed. only his overall power in the current game environment.

i mean riot officially described juggernauts as tanky melee carries and that this is their design intent.

Nasus. Darius. Garen. Skarner. When you think brute force, these champions should come to mind: powerful, durable, immobile and melee. They’re League’s hulking titans who, come late game, turn into super tanky carries who’ll pretty much destroy anyone foolish enough to get in their way. [...] This balance of power and peelability helps keep tanky melee carries in a good state and leads to distinct playstyles that belong to each champion.

RequiemsfireNov 23, 20161 votes

Kallista wasn't simply overtuned, the whole issue was her concept made her too good at her role resulting in gutting her numbers to leave room for other champions.