Ideas to make talon a viable champ (not fotm)

PROJECT Katarìna··18 votes·2,613 views

Sorry for wall of text

Id say make talon's q like ekko's E (imagine vayne tumble range then dash or auto amplifier).

Remove the delay on his ult to double pop or lower it to like 0.4 (currently has a 0.7 sec delay).

And give him higher base movespeed 335 is pretty bad when his Q has 550 range while katarina has 725 on shunpo and leblanc has 600 on distortion and that one can be used again to get out. (this is a definitely must have as an melee assassin with no free escapes)

His w intial throw should do the slow considering it does lower damage then instead of the second part have the slow and make the slow scale into late game.

make his Q reset off bleed procs or kills/assists.(probably not sounds pretty op)

Also grievous wounds would be good on his passive but that might be too op or making the stacks last longer would be good because I would like to proc multiple passives in a fight on other targets

One of the main problems I see is that talon no longer has the ability to outplay skill shots like he did with his old E and a lot of his damage is loaded into his Q and bleed but he really cant proc his bleed cause of his slow movespeed and delay on abilities also having to auto and his Q is used more for gap closing.

Don't get me wrong talons parkour looks cool but all it feels like is a gimmick meanwhile Camille Aatrox Ekko Azir Corki Ezreal Fizz Fiora Graves JarvanIV Jax Katarina Kassadin Khazix Leblanc LeeSin Lissandra Lucian Nidalee Riven Sejuani Shaco Tristana Vi Zac Ziggs Zed can all jump over walls with a relatively short CD mid to late game and most of those dashes provide utility and damage and are not situational except ward hopping.

Please take these things into consideration riot when you decide to buff him I don.t want him to be flavor of the month I just want him to be viable like Sejuani before item 1401 .

https://i.gyazo.com/d082aca2af9a63114a3660fe0f825277.png

https://i.gyazo.com/173ecbd9651a623798bda5aaa5afba93.png

40 Comments

Supreme Senpai6910 votes

He has mastery 5 on Yasuo, don't listen to a word he says!

/s

XeroKimo4 votes

You either die a Hero

Or live long enough to see yourself become a yasuo main

Catastrop9 votes

His passive should proc without an auto in my opinion.

XeroKimo2 votes

They'd have to tune down the damage of it then, it's crazy dmg for a passive tbh....... tho it's not like he's alone........ I'm looking at you kat........

PROJECT Katarìna1 votes

Thing is though he has no hard cc and is melee with no strong escapes in lane

rtbf761092711 votes

If they did this, they would have to move damage off of his passive and on to his ult. If you get hit by his current passive in lane you die. It could be way too strong at lv 2 to lv5. His passive is really balanced around the face that his movespeed is low and 2nd part of rake only hits retards

TeCoolMage7 votes

I don't think Talon should get buffed right now. I don't mean he's not weak but I think he needs a TON of QoL changes that are borderline buffs first, and a patch where his winrate is just monitored to see if they were the problem.

Allow E during R Allow Q out of E Allow W mid E Allow W mid Q Reduce E cooldown per use or remove it completely (god the tiny delay annoys me so much it makes Talon look like he needs a breather or something). NOT the per-wall cooldown.

These all decrease the amount of time the Talon player feels as if he's being punished and having options be taken away from him for using his abilities for their intended purpose.

Afterwards if he still sucks, I'd still be light on the buffs and not give him power in general, just where he's struggling

  • His total damage is fine, but it's his damage being too backloaded that's the main problem
  • He can't use the same wall to escape
  • He has too many delays stacked on top of each other adding up to over a second when the original intention was that a 'split second' gives a lot of time to counterplay
  • He can't juke too well
  • He can be kited too easily

So from this I'd say (possible buffs, not all at once):

  • When W blades are not moving during the delay, they do return damage + slow if you walk through them. Like Katarina Daggers creating a small zoning area where she gets free damage if you walk over it, Talon's W should create a small zoning area where he gets free damage if you walk over it.
  • OR, W blades do return damage + slow along with normal damage if you throw it out and the enemy is already in the area where the blades stop. So there's a sweet spot where you throw the blades to get double damage instantly. Riot recently talked about Camille's kick having a weaker effect in melee range because melee vs melee matchups tend to be 'get in range, use all your abilities, better numbers win', so this could be something similar.
  • Q range increase to 800. Larger than Katarina's shunpo since it's delayed with a travel time, has no resets, and is generally less flexible.
  • Q melee doesn't scale with crit damage and instead scales with lethality. This is a fun one that might give him better late game scaling, not much to say about it.
  • Q makes W blades converge on one target like ult blades, to stop kiting if the W buffs above aren't good ideas
  • E speed increased
  • E on turrets removes aggro (ooh this is a fun one)
  • Q applies passive if you already have 3 stacks, and starts again with 1 stack immediately (but if you have 2 stacks, Q gives you a third but still requires an auto)
  • MS increase
  • Walls can be E'd twice before going on cooldown, or a reset on kill/assist
PROJECT Katarìna2 votes

I agree that he needs a lot of QoL changes before straight buffs.

Project Sleeky5 votes

THE LONGSWORDS ARE DEADDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Troll for Trump4 votes

His w intial throw should do the slow

That'd be the same as old one. It feels janky, because that means you don't have much say in iniatives in lane as Talon. It's meant to be on the 2nd W proc to punish players for staying there too long.

Thing is, competent player will always be able to dodge the 2nd proc, and you'll never be able to engage on them with Q, because of relatively short range and low base ms.

It's annoying

rtbf761092711 votes

Just flash every time you want to do damage kappa

Soldier of 4Jhin3 votes

You make some pretty good pointers

RavenMagus2 votes

It's actually pretty hard for Katarina to wall jump on her own (without help, she needs two abilities, one of which is on a fairly long cooldown, and the other is also decently long if she doesn't get a reset for it).

Ziggs is much the same way. His wall jump is a bit easier, but it's also not incredibly easy, and it also has a very long cooldown. Meanwhile Talon can practically pretend the jungle doesn't have any walls.

I'm just nitpicking, though. I can agree that Talon could use some love, especially post lane phase.

PROJECT Katarìna1 votes

you be surprised on how many walls you can jump with Q>E if there is a monster camp and there is a couple of thin walls you can jump with W>E

RavenMagus1 votes

I spent 30 minutes jumping over walls solo in a custom game with Kata. :P

You can jump over raptor wall, the thin wall near mid, the thin part of the wall around dragon/baron (the baron wall is much harder), both walls around blue buff, the wall behind wolves, the wall around krugs. You can't jump over red buff walls.

But yeah, it's definitely doable, it's just hard (you have to cuddle with the wall first so the range is low), and the W cooldown is really long.

PROJECT Katarìna1 votes

I had fun juking people with a W prep on krugs Q them just to shunp over the wall then to shunpo back to my W when they flash or dash over the wall trying to get me

RavenMagus1 votes

That's actually pretty hilarious. I'll have to try that sometime. Though so far every time I've gone over a wall the enemy has just given up.

I actually got trapped behind krugs after shunpoing to a blast cone once. I was a totally free kill but the enemy just never checked so I backed safely.

Ralanr2 votes

Some ideas I definitely agree with. Especially his passive giving GW. Nothing frustrates me more on Talon than seeing someone use heal or pop a potion and have it completely nullify my bleed.

PROJECT Katarìna1 votes

Yeah it would be a high reward part of his kit since he has to apply 3 stacks then auto or q but that might overload his kit

CasterGilgamesh2 votes

talon just needs better scalings on his other spells and riot needs to give him an MS steroid in his kit somewhere that he can proc after his rotation like on his passive

Leanus Crain2 votes

I'm still really confused about why you decided to post your champion mastery past the top 3. Just feels like you're trying to validate your point more without the need to.

PROJECT Katarìna1 votes

Well I cant just be some b5 adc main talking about things I wouldnt know

Dêcoy1 votes

Somehow that Master Yi makes me question your champion pool...I mean, Kat became a bit tougher to play than she used to be, but...People that play right click champions are somehow less legit IMO when it comes to "balancing theg game".

Mecha MaIphite1 votes

What does that have to do with anything?

Dêcoy1 votes

If all you do is right clicking on the enemy and pressing Q sometimes, it's not like you care about balancing the game since you don't even play it. You AFK farm for 20minutes and then you show up, trying to 1v5 the game.

Tormentula4 votes

Master yi isn't even good the higher elo you get.... QQ somebody was hurt

Anyway yea, for somebody giving as much mobility as ignoring the entire jungle, there is way too many champions capable of following him or simply using ranged skill shots to kill him over the walls. Wall jumping is good for jukes but its not like he and other champions were incapable of doing that before.

IMO he needs 1 of 3 things:

  1. Shorter cast time of his E, make him jump the walls faster, its feels slower than it should be just for the animation to be cooler, this would cause him fewer deaths since about 90% of the time I see talon dead in the wall.

  2. Increase the invis time on his ultimate so he can actually surprise somebody. Every instance of him using it causes you to see his blades before he even gets in range of you. For example somebody taking your tower can you see ulting back in lane and just walk away.

  3. Allow his ultimate invisibility to not be disabled by jumping over walls. If he can run around invis, I don't see why he wouldn't be allowed to jump or climb invis, it feels wrong, looks wrong, and it really sucks since being able to go invis behind baron pit, and then jump over and kill the jungler for a steal would give talon the sick plays he's looking for but never was capable of for years of his existence.

Catastrop3 votes

{quoted}

Somehow that Master Yi makes me question your champion pool...I mean, Kat became a bit tougher to play than she used to be, but...People that play right click champions are somehow less legit IMO when it comes to "balancing theg game".

People who think like this are the ones who have no business discussing balance.

Dêcoy1 votes

Because Right-Click champions players have any business doing so...Give me a break, dude. Don't break your finger "carrying" games after AFK farming for 20minutes.

Catastrop1 votes

News flash, game knowledge exists. Mechanics are useless if you lack the knowledge needed to push an advantage.

Dêcoy1 votes

Sure. Good excuse to try and make Master Yi look like a legit and serious champion~~

An Undead brat1 votes

Unpopular opinion: Talon is fine. He has no problem oneshotting people on level 3.

MissingKayo3 votes

I can kill people as Talon level 3 if they stand still for 3 seconds. I can't oneshot.

An Undead brat1 votes

It literally happened to me, no hate, but Talon complaints are a circle jerk and simply not true...

MissingKayo3 votes

The only way for it to happen level 3 is him hitting both W rakes and then either getting a short-range Q or a long-range Q and then an autoattack. That's not fast.

rtbf761092713 votes

Talon complaints are all legit and you are pointing out the only thing which makes him strong. Trying to pop his passive at lv2 or lv3 and getting first blood. What happens when you afk and let darius hit you with all his abilities and some autos? Do you NOT die or something?

rtbf761092711 votes

Talons paasive at lv3 does an incredible amount of damage. Like leblancs. Try not to be afk through both sides of the rake and empowered q plus auto.... Helps a lot

9kPluzZ1 votes

All talon needs imo is a Grievous wounds proc on his passive

woodvsmurph1 votes

How about making his e a spinning vault which can be used to gap close both in combat and out of combat -- and giving it 2 charges on short cd? Thus talon can hop 1 wall on his way to gank bot or top, use 2nd vault to gap close, and get off a crit with his q. Or, vault wall, q gap close and finish off target, vault away before he can get cc'd and killed by the enemy counter-gank. It would let you play him more like kass for mid and late game teamfights rather than going in and either just dying after you do your combo or having to save ult to get out. You could even set it up so vault was like fizz's playful/trickster -- dodging damage and spells during the vault. Because you have charges on it, people would have to be strategic about when to use it: hop wall vs dive in to get a crit hit on q (instead of non-crit q) vs escape after comboing an enemy.

Are1 votes

He needs a way to reliably get to carries. A well positioned carry doesn't have to worry about Talon because he doesn't have the blink anymore, just a rather okayish ranged dash. Wall hopping I feel isn't sufficient in teamfights unless they're positioned badly and the support doesn't care to peel.

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