The entire Mana regen change has nerfed mages across the board.

MajorPain9·Jan 18, 2015·52 votes·3,232 views

And energy assassins now reign supreme. There is no reason to pick a mana based mid anymore when you can just thrive off the much better master race energy branch.

40 Comments

Ariel the CruelJan 18, 201510 votes

Lissandra Remains largely unaffected. Since riot has always been determined to ensure that she relies on her passive for using abilities. (Don't get me wrong. She has a really strong passive. The implementation is just completely counter-intuitive.)

exiledFromBadmenJan 18, 20151 votes

You're true. Only Lissandra survived.

SchteltzerJan 18, 20154 votes

what about Xerath ?

AlorasenceJan 18, 20154 votes

Was heavily nerfed and struggles against all of the most contested mids in the game: Zed, Akali, Fizz, LeBlanc, and Katarina.

None of which have meaningful resources.

His passive has insulated him somewhat however.

SquarefighterJan 19, 20151 votes

Leblanc doesn't have meaningful resources? Fizz doesn't have meaningful resources? Also when were the Xerath nerfs? Xerath is my most played champ (although I'm unranked so that doesn't mean much) and I see him played a lot in pro games.

AlorasenceJan 19, 20151 votes

No they do not.

SquarefighterJan 20, 20151 votes

Sorry, could've sworn those two had mana.

YakasJan 20, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Sorry, could've sworn those two had mana.

For there kit, they don't need to worry about mana because they are capable of taking out a target with only a minimal amount of mana (uses all there skills once). So yes they have mana but unless you are 1v5ing, you won't really notice the bar drop to the point where you should be scared.

Only point where mana starts to play a part is in the first part of laning phase but it is good that it is like that because, mages shouldn't be able to just stay under tower and farm without a problem. Before, catching a xerath out would he near impossible but now, he can't free farm without worrying about his mana.

AlorasenceJan 20, 20152 votes

You are forgiven.

I made the same mistake.

DrogmyreJan 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

what about ?

shhhhhhhhhhhhhh.........

CoolKnightSTJan 18, 201510 votes

I think riot want to try to expand the mana gating. So item 3070 would be used more and delays these mages effect in the early to midgame. If you think about it again. Was it really healthy for midlaners to start a defensive item item 3028 every game. I think riot just to to try to create diversity on these midlaners again. If item 3174 is a less attractive buy early whe might see more different starts like item 3001 item 3157 item 3089 . Maybe whe would even see some item 3027 in the near future.

Midlaners where always so depended on mana regen and it was hard to run out ones you had the one core item. I can agrea with riot a little bit they want to try to delay that spike. If you look closely to the existing mana item:

: Defensive buy to get mana regen based on your max mana (so lategame)
: Squishy start that slowly stacks in the early to midgame (with the result to reach lategame)
: Offensive buy (powerspike in the midgame)
(for powerspike early game)

Riot still has a lot of work todo for mages. But I think it will take time.

Leblancs BoobJan 18, 20158 votes

And instead of nerfing the monstrosities of Zed, Akali, and Kat... Morellenomicon gets nerfed..

Champion SkinJan 18, 201513 votes

Well you see item 3174 Grail was kind of weak so everyone was picking item 3165 Morellonomicon and we can't have that and now they are both about as weak and the world is saved...

Though the thing that is kind of weird is the change to Grail... as before it was Grail for mana regen and Tear for flat mana... but now Grail needs flat mana to give you regen which is kind of awkward

AlorasenceJan 18, 20151 votes

I honestly still like Morellonomicon over Grail. It is still more cost efficient and I need cd asap on most mid laners.

Champion SkinJan 19, 20153 votes

Well yeah Morellonomicon gives you more power for your gold (+ the grevious wounds for what it is worth)

Though late game Grail might be better since it might be slightly better slot efficiency because of the mr and because late game it generally gives more mana regen though I am not quite sure about that..

And the items are so similar that why wouldn't you just choose the one with the best stats every single time?

Maybe they should nerf the AP and buff the MR on Grail making it a more defensive mana item and Morello as the offensive one.. it would at least make them somewhat different

HawkefireJan 19, 20151 votes

Don't underestimate the grievous wounds on morellonomicon, it is a massive amount of hidden power and can actually mean the difference between killing an adc and not killing them, as it counters their sustain.

TheUntitledKingJan 18, 20157 votes

Vladimir Huehuehuehuehue.

Although in all seriousness, Morello's becoming core due to mana regen nerfs actually has indirectly impacted Vladimir.

Funny stuff.

AkesgerothJan 18, 20155 votes

It's not just mana regen which cripples mages, it's the entirety of AP itemization. Reposting:

I think the issue is that mana regen and/or mana aren't budgeted properly for casters. Let's take Malzahar as an example: You want to get Sorc boots and deathcap, of course. You also want to get a void staff eventually, so that's three slots gone. However, you also want to build Liandry's since it provides even more magic pen and the passive is massively powerful. And if you build Liandry, you need to build Rylai. This leaves you with precisely one free slot to change your build around. And this is a build which any DoT intensive mage will use: Malz, Swain, Brand, Cass, Morde, Morg, Rumble, Viktor, etc. Even mages who don't use DoTs will often pick this build because Liandry's is that strong. In fact, it's so strong that mage damage is currently built around having it.

Even skipping Liandry's and Rylai, you're left with three slots. In those three slots, you need to fit AP, cooldown reduction, mana and mana regen and some survivability. That's rarely doable. Like, let's take Karthus. You build Deathcap, sorc boots and void staff. You also build archangel, and zhonya. Pop an abyssal on top. Sounds nice until you realize you built 0 health and 0 cooldown reduction, but in Karthus' case that works because he cares about neither. Doesn't work so well on most other casters.

Now, forcing people to choose could be seen as an intelligent design decision; it prevents you from getting everything with a specific build and forces you to make choices. This would be fine if other characters weren't able to get everything in a build. Let's take Darius, as an example. He uses mana, but he doesn't need to build either mana or mana regen as his ability costs are low enough to allow him to use them consistently past the laning phase. Build Randuin's Omen, Merc Treads, Black Cleaver, Hydra, MoM on him and you have the following stats and effects, not counting movement speed:

Magic resistance (+65) Armor (+70) Health (+700) AD (+185) Lifesteal (+12%) Amor penetration (+10, +25% from debuff) Cooldown reduction (+10%) Tenacity (+35) Cleave Attack speed slow on opponents. AoE slow AoE physical damage Magic shield You get plenty of each of those stats and that's with only 5 items, meaning you still get to pick a 6th item to adapt to the match situation while having all the stats you could ever need. And Darius isn't even the most versatile Fighter. You need to face some mages? Get banshee's. Just tankier in general? GA or Warmog. More damage? Bloodthirster. Tankier AND more damage AND a slow on your attacks? Frozen Mallet. Physical damage champions can have their cake and eat it. Mages can't. Hell, for the sake of comparison, let me compare the 5 items Malz build to this:

AP (340 +30% = 442) Magic penetration (30 + 35%) Health (+700) Bonus damage over time Slow when doing magic damage And that's it. Same amount of health, no armor, no magic resistance, no cooldown reduction, no spell vamp, no tenacity, slightly better penetration. As for comparing the AP to the AD, you know damn well, that 185 bonus AD is about as good as 442 AP. And on top of that, mages need mana and/or mana regen while most other champions can get away with building neither. I'd go so far as to say that the budget on mage items is so bad that if it wasn't for the fact that you need one mage on a team to force the enemy team to build some MR instead of all armor, people would stop playing mages entirely. Or at the very least, they would concentrate on CC heavy mages and build support items.

BaculusJan 19, 20152 votes

If you're rushing Deathcap, it's no surprise that you're struggling.

cshakesJan 19, 20151 votes

S/he never commented on build order, just that they'd like to have a Deathcap at some point.

BaculusJan 20, 20151 votes

"You build Deathcap, sorc boots and void staff. You also build archangel, and zhonya." "You want to get Sorc boots and deathcap, of course. You also want to get a void staff eventually, so that's three slots gone."

Listing it first and adding everything else as afterthoughts; I'll disagree. Their lolking also disagrees. :x

That, and rushing Deathcap is the only way I can think that someone would believe AP Itemization is horrible. APs have, easily, the most extensive list of itemization options and combine every usable stat with their main damage utility in one way or another. Need armor? Bro, got Zhonyas with the best active in the game. Need magic resist? Do I want infinity mana, or a mshred aura with it.... Need Grievious Wounds? Move over executioner's calling, it's GOOD FOR EVERY BUILD!

etc, etc

AP Itemization is really strong, to the point where other roles are jealous. We've just had, for the first time in two or three years, the need to actually care about mana. This just means people will need to relearn to play without wasting tons of mana, and maybe get mana regen runes. There was a reason they saw common use in S1/2. When's the last time you saw someone with them?

Kitten of EvilJan 18, 20154 votes

I think Malzahar is still very viable against many of the assassins, especially since his E mana restore isn't reliant on mana regen %, and his ult + a voidling + W or E should be enough to grab and kill any assassin who dives you.

KidKaiserJan 18, 20155 votes

Malz suffers vs a competent enemy jungler. just bring your jungler along for the ride too.

SolaxoJan 18, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZO KidKaiser,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wwTs2aMs,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-01-18T06:33:27.190+0000)

Malz suffers vs a competent enemy jungler. just bring your jungler along for the ride too.

Gl with diving malzahar who spends his time near his turret throwing E at everything

KidKaiserJan 18, 20152 votes

then risk losing your mid tower by shoving hard and making plays top/bot with your jungler. you have a good 2 second lead. and if you're playing TF. guaranteed flash/kills

AlorasenceJan 18, 20152 votes

You don't have to dive him....

Malz will push every lane every time.

He's a super easy gank.

But at least there are no viable early gank junglers right now that could pull that off.......................................................................................................................................................................

MarenjiiJan 18, 20152 votes

Stop spamming abilities off CD.

junglerboy16Jan 18, 20152 votes

No, duh.

Of course it nerfed mages across the board. The whole point of the change is that in the long run, making mana regen less of a MUST BUY type of item, they can give mages higher base regen where needed, or give them better damage or lower cool downs, or whatever they need but couldn't have because powerful mana regen made them too strong.

This also will mean that build variety will open up, since you won't have to always build mana regen every game, meaning builds that incorporate utility or extra damage or possibly extra survivability will be more viable.

AlorasenceJan 18, 20154 votes

That all might be a nice theory that Riot put together in some office cubicle somewhere, but in the real world...

not working.

junglerboy16Jan 19, 20151 votes

Well, like I said it isn't going to happen over night, and it isn't going to be pretty... Or maybe I said that on one of the other mage nerf QQ threads...

asktiksJan 19, 20151 votes

wooosh...

yes lets open up more variety

lets nerf morelicon because people are actually being able to not go oom against zed , cant have that...

also , nerf sindra , cant have "oppressive lane bullies" ...xcept zed and yasuo that is, nvmdn that energy management is virtually the same as being resourcless (lets face it ive never seen a zed or energy user actually run out of energy unless you are playing kennen )

nevermind that assasins cant go STRAIGHT INTO THEIR CORE and not have to build a single regen item , meanwhile we waste TWO slots just to be able to have a resource to cast with

its bs, its not working and they nerfed mana regen too much

junglerboy16Jan 19, 20151 votes

The whole point is that in the next few patches, they plan to make mana regen less needed by giving mages who need it more BASE REGEN. The whole purpose of nerving mana regen itemization is to make it so that there is room to buff mags in a way that mana regen ISN'T a must buy, and that will give them a degree of parity with energy users.

Syndra got what was coming to her. She was a top pick for several months, and while I agree that the nerfs were heavy handed, she needed some nerfs. That, and once they get rid of the bugs on her E, she should do a lot better.

RaptameiJan 18, 20151 votes

-picks Xin mid-

Feel free to all in.

Ariel the CruelJan 18, 20151 votes

Lissandra Fizz Akali Leona Kayle RekSai Quinn Olaf Trundle Teemo Zed Ok.

OneDragonArmyJan 18, 20151 votes

Tear based mages feel nothing heheh. Also Viktor doesn't even care. item 3198 500 mana core item the dream

OperationDEEZ1Jan 18, 20151 votes

Well if you ever rush perfect hex core I'm going to come out of your monitor and slap you in the face.

OperationDEEZ1Jan 18, 20151 votes

Looks like S5 is going to be the "You know what fuck all the mages and tanks" season.

sealustJan 19, 20151 votes

Dude, I just... build two item 3165 on a lot of my mages now :/ works really well on lux but i don't like duplicating items on other mages. But I agree, I can't stand to play mana hogs like Anivia and Syndra now.