Skip to content

This website is void of Reds.

MajorPain9··35 votes·8,076 views

Especially when compared to the original General Discussion. We are now well into preseason, a time when feedback is between playersand ddevas usually peaks and the site is a ghost town of any form of communication between either. The most you can hope for is a red that works on the CB saying yes yes we know about this bug with the forum, it will get fixed eventually. Nothing about the actual game.

That isn't to say the reds have stopped talking though. They just aren't doing it here. Reddit or the pbe seem to be your best chances of coming into contact with them. A quick stroll to surrender at 20 will show this. The fan sights are seeing a much higher interaction rate now that the Beta has been fully implemented.

So the question to ask is why the reds don't want to use there own company forums, and why they are opting for other formats. Is it the posting style? The community attitude ( even though old GD was much more spiteful than what this is, yet still had a better community interaction),? Or just a preference for other fan sights?

One thing that can be gleaned for certain though, is that the community of players that visit this sight have taken quite a hit in having actual discussions with riot since the implementation of Boards.

50 Comments

FarRockBF20 votes

I hate that they made this forum promising there would be MORE Red interaction. Such BS.

Pyro3 votes

At least I can post from my main account without feeling like third world citizen.

Now you guys in NA know how EU felt about red interaction on the old forums :P

RiotEscape Plan8 votes

Hey MajorPain9,

We go wherever players are. We’re encouraged to talk to players on any platform we feel comfortable using, so some Rioters use the boards, some use reddit, others use twitter. We’re not using any particular platform any more or any less, but we are spread out a bit more so it may seem that way.

Keevalroy5 votes

It feels as if the majority of Riot's time is spent on reddit, and not their own forums. Are there plans of bringing people back on here now that the forums are a reddit clone? It was explained how the community here is "scary," and I would agree to a certain extent, but think about the negative feedback that comes from Boards. We feel like our feedback is falling on deaf ears or is being dismissed entirely just because we assume that Riot won't dare comment on controversial topics at the risk of being downvoted. On reddit, you have zombies that will auto-upvote anything having to do with Riot, making it more appealing to use.

As for the negativity here, I know it doesn't make sense, you should be happy that people are being critical of and judging the content released. That's what passionate, worried, and concerned people do. They question every action made demanding answers, but when no answers can be found other than "deal with it," those people feel neglected and become bitter because nothing they bring up seems to matter.

Daen2 votes

You should be happy that people are being critical of and judging the content released. That's what passionate, worried, and concerned people do. They question every action made demanding answers, but when no answers can be found other than "deal with it," those people [can] feel neglected and become bitter because nothing they bring up seems to matter.

I really like this comment. The bolded part in particular is something I can resonate with, as I've occasionally felt that way despite being a very rational and objective person (or at least I hope that's the case).

MajorPain91 votes

Thanks for taking the time to come talk. I'm not a big fan of telling people where / how they have to post and completely agree they should have a way to do so that fits them best. But in the process of spreading it out so thinly is an impression that there is no discussion. Does riot have any plans to consolidate this information in a manner similar to surrender at 20 that can allow all the players that enjoy different posting formats the ability to catch up to where riot is in terms of discussion with the community?

Also keeve makes some very good points. Also my post keeps being erased then coming back. Its rather pathetic we are still having these bugs and riots own forum is still in beta after all this time.

MrBuffington2 votes

Thanks for taking the time to chat. I don't really have anything to contribute to the discussion, but I just think it's kind of funny that the Red that decides to jump into a thread complaining about the lack of Red activity is named "Escape Plan"

I do think there's been good interaction with Rioters on Boards; can't really speak to how it compares to old forums since I wasn't around back then. Thanks for stopping by though! :D

BADxW0LF2 votes

This is a problem for me. As a player who frequents your boards, I feel that a company who has a forum such as this should maintain constant contact on it rather then venture outward. When I have an issue, I come to the source. I hate Reddit. I think it's a jumbled mess and difficult to find what I need. Here, I know exactly who I am talking to and hope that I get in contact with the right people. However, from what you have just said that will never be the case with certain questions. I shouldn't have to post my issues/questions/concerns on multiple forums just to get an answer from you guys. Either everyone at your company should go to this forum first, or get rid of it. Why put money into something if you aren't going to use it like it should be?

We’re not using any particular platform any more or any less, but we are spread out a bit more so it may seem that way.

Yes you are. I've seen more answers to questions come from other sources than this board. A Riot forum with less answers than any other source is a big waste of money. Your Dev Blogs are not really enough to give the answers your community is looking for, neither are your patch notes. I understand you like going into more fun posts (from another reply of yours) and that's perfectly fine, but you can't just stick to those. You have to answer the big questions.

Here are a couple ways that I would do it:

  1. Put up a weekly video of everyone at Riot (or just the team leads) just in a relaxed area and have someone who peruses the boards frequently bring questions/concerns to the group. Post the answers to these in a Youtube clip or even as just a listed thread. This way questions are answered BY the experts (per your discussion with DAEN).

  2. Give a communications role to someone on each project (not just anyone, someone already on the project who is doing work, but maybe a little less than everyone else). That way they have constant knowledge of what is going on and they can answer giving their expert opinion on the subject and you escape the "structure of Player -> Community Manager -> Expert -> Community Manager -> Player" (again from another reply). I get that you want everyone to build a relationship with the community, but the fact of the matter is that that's unrealistic. Your projects come before community interaction and I TOTALLY get that. I am not mad about it. I would much rather you guys get your stuff fixed when needed. However, that leaves little room for communication with us. Which is why I am in favor of this option.

  3. Have a weekly newsletter where you get answers from the forums (all of them) and post it on your main page. This way it is readily available to everyone. (similar to number one, but whatever lol)

  4. Require that everyone take a little time out of their day to look at THIS forum. Maybe not every day, but maybe twice a week. That way answers are given on a forum that you guys created (something you guys put time/effort/money into). If you're not going to use this board as it should be, then get rid of it entirely and direct us to something that is used more frequently.

That's all I have for now.

Daen4 votes

Mind if I comment? I'm not Riot or anything but discussion is fun.

Either everyone at your company should go to this forum first, or get rid of it. Why put money into something if you aren't going to use it like it should be?

While I understand this mentality, it's a bit complicated. Freedom to speak wherever you'd like is pretty amazing, especially as a developer. You might have people that only like to chat via informal means (e.g. Twitter), and forcing them onto a comparatively more formal communication platform (e.g. Boards) is more likely to make them not want to post than redirect said posting.

Additionally, different mediums are good for different things. The Boards platform is fantastic for having huge balance discussions or whatnot, whereas Twitter and Facebook are good for quickly dispersing small bits of information or getting some frivolous communication going. Each of these approaches/methods has validity, it's just a question of whether anything becomes mutually exclusive.

I think the main issue you're referring to here is the fact that the Boards and reddit share very similar functionality. I'm not saying the Boards looks like reddit or is too similar, I'm just saying that they are both intended for long-form discussion on topics with multiple different threads on the same topic (i.e. nesting). It's almost impossible for there not to be a division in the community and Riot, since the two platforms fill almost the exact same niche for communication.

If this is in fact a problem, how do we resolve it? Restricting Rioters to a certain platform is not a scalable solution, and it would leave a lot of players in the dust. That being said, would it be possible to somehow have a comprehensive Red Tracker? I know a lot of communication is informal, but it shouldn't be an impossibility to do something like Surrender@20 where interesting posts are pulled from both the Boards and reddit. Would it be extremely complex to introduce that sort of functionality, so that Boards users could more easily see Rioter activity on reddit?

Give a communications role to someone on each project (not just anyone, someone already on the project who is doing work, but maybe a little less than everyone else). That way they have constant knowledge of what is going on and they can answer giving their expert opinion on the subject and you escape the "structure of Player -> Community Manager -> Expert -> Community Manager -> Player" (again from another reply).

I have suggested something very similar in the past, though it does still end up with the same sort of structure problem. You don't have Player > CM > Expert > CM > Player any more, but you now have Player > Project communicator > Player. It can actually be almost more restrictive, in a sense, because you can theoretically avoid the expert entirely.

That being said, I agree with the fact it seems unrealistic to have the expert consistently addressing player concerns. It's a great goal, having information coming straight from the horse's mouth, but when you have thousands of players trying to get the attention of a single person who is trying to actually push the feature out it really becomes questionable. How does one person work on a project while simultaneously communicating effectively with thousands of people?

This isn't even including community projects as I mentioned in a previous reply to Escape Plan (forum events, player volunteer groups, etc.), I'm just speaking to a communication standpoint.

Have a weekly newsletter where you get answers from the forums (all of them) and post it on your main page.

This is something I would love to see, though it would take a huge amount of effort. In general I think infodumps would be great to have; examples would be change logs for the Boards, known bugs, current projects, big spread-out discussions, etc.

BADxW0LF2 votes

Glad to have your opinion. I read through your replies earlier and enjoyed them.

Let me start here:

The Boards platform is fantastic for having huge balance discussions or whatnot, whereas Twitter and Facebook are good for quickly dispersing small bits of information or getting some frivolous communication going.

I, for one, am not the biggest fan of having to cycle through multiple different sources for information (I did that in college and had enough of that). I am not trying to do a research paper, I am trying to find one source to house all of the information related to a single game. Having to follow multiple people on multiple different social media outlets is tedious and, in my opinion, not good for business. Sure, you get the publicity of having multiple outlets, but if one person puts their info on only one social media outlet and another person puts their info on the Boards, I have to trek through everything to find what I need, not to mention that it isn't organized. Social media, especially Twitter, is a jumbled mess and unorganized whereas the Boards have specific topics under certain categories all in one location where information can be found.

I am not saying that Rioters should feel restricted. I am saying that they should utilize the Boards that the company has designed to provide information to the community at large. A place where a good majority of players come for information when they need it. Not everyone uses Twitter/Facebook/Reddit/etc. (I despise Twitter and think it's not very user friendly) I feel a good majority of players can be found using the Boards at one point or another. Social media sites are good for advertising certain "fun" topics (i.e. videos, patch notes, Worlds news, etc). They should not be used for topics like many found here on the Boards.

It can actually be almost more restrictive, in a sense, because you can theoretically avoid the expert entirely.

Not necessarily. I'm not talking about someone who doesn't know what they are doing. You're not always going to get the expert to communicate the most. They are the expert, so they will more than likely carry a majority of the workload and not have time to communicate as much. This is where someone else on the project comes in.

I work for a QA company and we have a weekly status board that we update at the end of every week. They are detailed so that the most important information pertaining to the project is listed for project managers to see. The communicator of each department could come here for answers that they do not know (or email the expert to find out the information).

This is something I would love to see, though it would take a huge amount of effort. In general I think infodumps would be great to have; examples would be change logs for the Boards, known bugs, current projects, big spread-out discussions, etc.

I do enjoy the thought of this because it is something that could be linked to in every communication outlet. As discussed above, not everybody utilizes every social media outlet and should be forced to in order to find the information they are looking for. Having one, giant info dump that could be linked to on a weekly basis would provide everyone a single location to go to. This would be a great location for big discussion topics (much like the complaints about east coast servers) to have information provided and questions answered. It all boils down to organization and a centralized mode of communication rather than not knowing where to go to get the information you want.

Daen2 votes

I, for one, am not the biggest fan of having to cycle through multiple different sources for information (I did that in college and had enough of that). I am not trying to do a research paper, I am trying to find one source to house all of the information related to a single game.

RIP research papers from college, you will not be missed.

I agree with this comment. Having to go to multiple completely different sources to find information is a pain, and personally I just don't even bother. Riot's communication does need to spread out in order to reach the community, but people also follow where Riot's activity is. If most of the important discussion were happening on the Boards, people would be coming to the Boards to see that important discussion.

Something that's really important to consider: The Boards has a Red Tracker. Does reddit have a red tracker? Twitter? Facebook?

Players that prefer third party platforms like reddit can quickly access the Red Tracker if they so choose. Players that prefer the Boards can't easily check reddit in the same sense, so there's actually an advantage to spending more time on reddit than on the first party platform as you are exposed to more content.

They are the expert, so they will more than likely carry a majority of the workload and not have time to communicate as much. This is where someone else on the project comes in.

Agreed entirely. The question becomes, however, whether this is a good thing for Riot as well. What if the communicator ends up being thought of as the main brain behind the project? What if the community more readily communicates with that person rather than the expert in his/her project/field?

To clarify, I'm playing devil's advocate here.

I do enjoy the thought of this because it is something that could be linked to in every communication outlet.

Yep. The idea of providing information parity is an interesting one. Every platform is different, but I do feel that at least the two most discussed long-form communication platforms (reddit and the Boards) should have some semblance of parity thereof. It's tough to do since you can't exactly regulate Rioters' posts, but at least pulling the important/highly discussed information would be good.

An example here is Tryndamere's AMA on communication that he did on reddit. A lot of people on the Boards found it ironic that he had this huge discussion about communication in a place where the entire native Boards community wouldn't see it unless they also followed reddit. On the one hand it's totally his prerogative to choose reddit, but on the other hand it just feels weird that the only platform to receive something that's perceived as massively important isn't even officially run by Riot.

It all boils down to organization and a centralized mode of communication rather than not knowing where to go to get the information you want.

Hitting the nail on the head. It's 100% necessary for Riot to spread out and address the community in a bunch of different mediums and on a bunch of different platforms. It's not, however, necessary for this information to be essentially region-locked.

BADxW0LF1 votes

Something that's really important to consider: The Boards has a Red Tracker. Does reddit have a red tracker? Twitter? Facebook?

This is the one thing I like about Riot. They have the option to follow what they post about. However, this is also something that needs a rework (like some champs). It is clunky and not very well done. I have written about this before (found here ).

Players that prefer the Boards can't easily check reddit in the same sense, so there's actually an advantage to spending more time on reddit than on the first party platform as you are exposed to more content.

I never thought of it this way. However, if you are just paying attention to what they Reds are saying, then you miss out on good discussion with other players on the Boards. Again, back to my point of a centralized location that is available to all regions to dump all information to the players (aka the Boards).

What if the communicator ends up being thought of as the main brain behind the project? What if the community more readily communicates with that person rather than the expert in his/her project/field?

I get the devil's advocate thing. Here is my response. The Rioter in charge of correspondence with the community would make it known to the public that he/she is not the expert on the project. The expert wouldn't always be behind the scenes, of course. They are more than free to comment when they wish to. In fact, whenever they get the chance, they most definitely should be the point of contact, but they won't have as much free time. So, a POC should be available as often as possible.

Dr Clueless PhD5 votes

The subreddit keeps growing, the Boards not so much. Despite protests from people that the Reddit style doesn't work and is evil, it's working pretty well over there. It's not working here, though, because the population here simply isn't large enough. So, the Reds go where the traffic is. It was a good hope that the Boards would pull over people from the subreddit, and traffic would follow, but it didn't work.

Edit: It's also worth nothing that some Boards don't show up in the Red Tracker, and a lot of posts with Reds in them simply don't stay around to be seen long.

MajorPain91 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Clueless PhD,realm=NA,application-id=bzRrPGQO,discussion-id=sdzJjIEd,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2014-12-15T17:28:08.528+0000) The subreddit keeps growing, the Boards not so much. Despite protests from people that the Reddit style doesn't work and is evil, it's working pretty well over there. It's not working here, though, because the population here simply isn't large enough. So, the Reds go where the traffic is. It was a good hope that the Boards would pull over people from the subreddit, and traffic would follow, but it didn't work.

Edit: It's also worth nothing that some Boards don't show up in the Red Tracker, and a lot of posts with Reds in them simply don't stay around to be seen long.

At least you can get the red tracker to work. It usually send me here to board feedback with no posts saying feel free to start off the discussion

Dr Clueless PhD1 votes

Clear your cookies. AFAIK, issues like that are the result of the site cookies. It may also be your cache. I generally clear them at the same time, so I'm not sure quite which. :/

Daen2 votes

It's a Boards bug, it will randomly decide to reroute you to the complete wrong location and break it in the process.

Rhlax1 votes

Despite protests from people that the Reddit style doesn't work and is evil

could i please get an explanation on what you mean by this?

Dr Clueless PhD1 votes

When the Boards launched, there were (and still are occasionally) a shitload of posts about how much the Reddit style sucks, for reasons that made no sense or were completely baseless. That's not say that there aren't legitimate concerns, but a large majority of complaint was simply a result of hating change and having been told by others how bad Reddit is. So, I summed up all of the baseless hate as "It's evil". Seems appropriate to me, at least.

Rhlax1 votes

thanks for the explanation bud... have a good day

Daen5 votes

It's not working here, though, because the population here simply isn't large enough.

I think the important question here is: Is Riot actively promoting the platform to have more traffic? reddit grabs traffic because people are constantly talking about it outside of the subreddit and it's well known that reddit has an active League of Legends community. Is this the case for the Boards? If not, why is this not happening?

So, the Reds go where the traffic is.

To be honest, I actually think Riot is wrong about this mentality. The bulk of conversation tends to be centered around player-developer discussion, rather than exclusively player-player.

A pretty good representation of this fact was in the old GD; Rioters were posting there pretty frequently since it was easiest and relatively off topic, so everyone started to migrate there. Once it got saturated with shitposting, a lot of Rioters moved to reddit. Surprise, a huge influx of community members also transitioned to reddit, and Riot even started doing all their AMAs there instead of on the company forums.

Riot doesn't follow the community; the community follows Riot.

It's also worth nothing that some Boards don't show up in the Red Tracker

To my knowledge this was fixed recently; are you still noticing this problem?

Dr Clueless PhD2 votes

It wasn't a problem, so it wasn't fixed. Some Boards are left off of the Red Tracker intentionally, like the Roleplaying Boards.

Daen1 votes

It wasn't a problem, so it wasn't fixed.

To what are you referring? Boards like General Discussion, Help & Support, Report A Bug, etc. were all missing from the Red Tracker. This was not intentional, and was recently fixed.

Some Boards are left off of the Red Tracker intentionally, like the Roleplaying Boards.

The RP board is left off of the entire platform; it's only accessible by either a link or randomly getting there by clicking a different Board. I don't really count it as a board missing from the Red Tracker, because it's apparently not even intended to be connected to the rest of the platform.

BallisticMouse5 votes

I've only seen Reds post on very, very non-controversial topics and even then try to stay overly neutral.

Rei Tenshi2 votes

That's the most annoying thing about it. They have people who can reply about the stupidest shits like wishlists and stuff, but can't be bothered to reply on more pressing issues.

Seriously, look at the Red Tracker, and you will see that only around 1 in 20 red posts are of any relevance.

RiotEscape Plan8 votes

This is another case where we try to maintain a balance. We totally want Rioters jumping into more laid-back threads, as they’re a great opportunity for us to engage with you as players rather than always being official mouthpieces. It’s easy for me to jump into a fun thread about Shaco (He’s my favorite… and the best) because, as a player I can talk about my experiences with him, why he’s the coolest, etc. Of course we don’t want those to be the only threads we post in, but fun threads are another way for Rioters to make sure you guys feel heard even when there may not be a relevant thread to which they can add their expertise.

Affinity21 votes

[{quoted}](name=Escape Plan,realm=NA,application-id=bzRrPGQO,discussion-id=sdzJjIEd,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2014-12-16T21:24:32.163+0000)

This is another case where we try to maintain a balance. We totally want Rioters jumping into more laid-back threads, as they’re a great opportunity for us to engage with you as players rather than always being official mouthpieces. It’s easy for me to jump into a fun thread about Shaco (He’s my favorite… and the best) because, as a player I can talk about my experiences with him, why he’s the coolest, etc. Of course we don’t want those to be the only threads we post in, but fun threads are another way for Rioters to make sure you guys feel heard even when there may not be a relevant thread to which they can add their expertise.

I mean you comment might comment on shaco.... but for the life of me i cant get smashgizmo morello or any other red who has worked with the champion to comment on him. I have been polite and constructive in terms of riots core design philosophies towards the champion as well as respecting the fun of the player. All of the devs who have worked on olaf only use boards including xelnath (who gave context on the base cd lowering on his q at best and commented on the righteous glory) I cant get phreak to come around either..... It seems the champion is in limbo doomed to never get a comment from anyone besides ironstyulus commenting on how his base skin shows its age.

I would appreciate if you could pass this along greatly. or perhaps take it upon yourself to make a dedicated olaf thread

thanks for your time Affinity

Rei Tenshi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Escape Plan,realm=NA,application-id=bzRrPGQO,discussion-id=sdzJjIEd,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2014-12-16T21:24:32.163+0000)

This is another case where we try to maintain a balance.

Balance where? Like I said, just check the Red Tracker. Out of about 20 replies, only 1 of them is relevant to the game.

The rest are reds trying hard to be chummy-chummy with the players. Which is very frustrating because some people don't give a damn what your favorite champs are or what, we want replies on issues/changes like "Why is X champion being nerfed already in PBE when he had a 0% pickrate in Worlds, meanwhile LeeSin still king of jungle picks" etc.

Edit: Reds/devs should be replying in every single thread in the Gameplay/Balance board, whether it is to correct a player misconception, or clarify their stances on balance changes.

The way it is now, this board is shit. We get a bunch of useless Reds just playing around on non-gameplay topics, while the devs are refusing to comment on the real issues.

Pikmints4 votes

When I look at the Red Tracker I feel like they have been posting at least as much as they used to. I notice that many of the posts on the front page have posts like "We hate Cassiupeia", "We hate Lee Sin", "We hate Fizz", "Give us more ward options", "Change the Baron/Dgragon buffs", "Leaver Buster punished me unfairly", "I want this skin for X champion", "Here's an improperly designed bug report", and so on. If all everyone did was complain on my forums, I wouldn't bother interacting with them, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't read what they say. There's a post on the front page now that complains about Fizz but also says absolutely nothing other than "How could you let him stay like this?" without so much as pointing out specifics of what they don't like or even suggesting a change to make him more fair. People like that complain either for the sake of complaining or have never heard of backing up your claim with examples or arguments.

The only real way they can respond to that is with an arbitrary answer meaning "We're testing some stuff out internally" which would never satisfy anyone that had enough reason to make such posts in the first place. I'm sure if Riot wasn't so closely watched by the public eye that so often twists their words and tries to be problematic, they'd say stuff like:

"The last thing we want to do is change Cass' passive mechanics each week to see which one works. Let's try this one out, we'll change the numbers from time to time based on what people are giving in ACTUAL CONSTRUCTIVE FEEDBACK. It makes sense to us that a poison based champ could hurt her enemies more if they've been exposed to more poison, thus the nature of her passive. We also had to note that, in instances like Veigar, if we gave her the same base stats without considering her ability to grow more powerful the longer a match goes on, she'd undoubtedly be able to win otherwise even trades at nearly all points in the game. Her base stats will be decreased slightly to compensate and if it feels like she loses all trades early regardless of details, then we will up her base numbers a bit. If it feels like her mana costs are too limiting, we'll see if lowering the costs or adjusting certain mechanics would give her more mana without making it a negligible factor, and the same applies for damage. We're not going to flip-flop like so much of the community asks us to, but they must understand that we have a team of people who agree that something had to be changed to bring this champ up-to-date"

TLDR - The average threads that get the most attention are simply complaining about something without any constructive aspects or details/are idiotic. As a big fan of this game I will admit that I do not like the community as they don't act the way they do in real life (or if they do they never graduated high school and learned people skills). I only want to talk to competent people that are able to take an answer and not rip into me about how their ideas are better.

Daen4 votes

The only real way they can respond to that is with an arbitrary answer meaning "We're testing some stuff out internally" which would never satisfy anyone that had enough reason to make such posts in the first place.

I'll cover this below, but an arbitrary answer is almost always better than no answer at all.

I'm sure if Riot wasn't so closely watched by the public eye that so often twists their words and tries to be problematic, they'd say stuff like:

The Cassiopeia rework is kind of a bad example, because the ideas Stashu was putting forth completely disagreed with the majority of the community (the passive in particular). Neither side seems to have communicated this very well, so it was a pretty constant struggle.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that what you wrote is exactly what the vast majority of the community wants, from a communication standpoint. "We're working on it" is almost always better than silence, even when a minority of the community twists your words around. An explanation of why certain choices are being made or discussion of other considerations is even better, because it gives the community something to discuss rather than immediately jumping to conclusions.

I wrote this on another thread somewhere, but if a company is silent about something it's unlikely for their consumers to come to a positive conclusion. When there is a bit of a trust barrier like there has been between Riot and the community for a while, this becomes even less likely. Receiving no answer is, at this point, tantamount to essentially the most negative thing people can come up with.

With Boards interaction, there's a pretty consistent pattern; when Riot fully explains something in the requisite depth, the vast majority of the vocal community supports that discussion. If it's something people disagree with they will oppose it, but conversation becomes much more civil. On the reverse, without full explanation or no explanation at all, it's assumed that Riot is hiding something or being dishonest.


This is kind of long winded, but does it make sense?

RiotEscape Plan11 votes

{quoted}

I'll cover this below, but an arbitrary answer is almost always better than no answer at all.

This is definitely something we struggle with internally. The main difficulty with arbitrary answers is they don’t usually add much to the conversation and to some players may come across as dismissive rather than informative. Because of that, we’re trying to get better at providing something meaningful for you when we post – we don’t want a bunch of our interactions with you to be “soon” or “I can’t answer that yet.” On the other hand, there’s a point at which a conversation gets big enough that we definitely need to jump in and provide whatever context we can, even if it’s just “We’re working on it.” It’s a balance we’re always working on getting right; sometimes we do, sometimes we don’t.

Another part of the equation is subject matter expertise. I’m in communications, so you definitely don’t want me shooting off my mouth when it comes to art or anything else for which we have actual experts [See Attached: Escape Plan’s Shaco splash]. When experts talk about their work, they’re able to provide far more meaningful information and context, answer follow-up questions, and ultimately stimulate an authentic dialogue. Tl;dr we generally want you talking to the experts, not me (unless I am the expert).

Dr Clueless PhD3 votes

People naturally get frustrated when they feel that Riot isn't seeing (or is ignoring) their issue. That's always going to happen. Seeing the casual posts around, even though it shouldn't, makes it worse for many, though. On an intellectual level, everyone knows that you're not a splash artist. We know you're not on the balance team. We know you don't deal with the servers. And it's obvious that you can't do anything about any of those things. But, on a basic, gut level, many people want you to go find that person and bring them to their thread. As if you somehow sit next to Morello and can/will bother him so that he looks at this specific thread on the Boards.

Again, on an intellectual level, no-one expects you to go and do that (for the most part, though some people are a little less realistic). However, it's that gut reaction that says you could be doing something and you're not, even when that reaction makes no sense to have.

I'm trying to find a good way to explain it. Say you were raised in a family with rather...unsavory beliefs about certain groups of people. That's what you heard and were taught for years. Then, as you matured and left home, you had to rebuild that perspective. Even years later, after a lot of concerted effort, something remains. You certainly don't hold any negative opinions like that yourself anymore, but on some gut level, it rears its' ugly head periodically. You get a reaction that you know makes no sense, but you have it nonetheless. It's kinda like that: a reaction of emotion that you know you shouldn't have, but do anyway.

"Riot takes time to talk about poros, but not about this!" isn't rational, and people know that. We know that you're not one big mind-linked entity. But, that frustration still happens, even though it flies in the face of reason.

At least that's my feeling.

Daen3 votes

Thanks for the reply. My answer here is kinda long, but I'm unsure of how to TLDR it.

The main difficulty with arbitrary answers is they don’t usually add much to the conversation and to some players may come across as dismissive rather than informative.

This is absolutely true, though ideally there should always be a kernel of truth somewhere. Something interesting about communities is that many people don't naturally assume a positive result from silence. It becomes a learned trait, from a psychological standpoint; if the focal point (communication) is generally positive, neutral action (soonTM) is generally assumed to be positive. If the focal point is generally negative, however, everything becomes colored by expectations and hopes.

SOE (Landmark Beta) does a really amazing job with this. They do weekly live broadcasts where they describe a lot of what the community has been doing, features that have been recently implemented, pain points the community has been discussing, progress of new/upcoming features, etc. I very rarely see negative reactions to this openness, even when they run into projects that take forever or hit a lot of roadblocks (caves, for example). The community trusts them to be up-front with what's happening internally, and trusts them to eventually deliver on these features when they are ready.

we’re trying to get better at providing something meaningful for you when we post – we don’t want a bunch of our interactions with you to be “soon” or “I can’t answer that yet.” On the other hand, there’s a point at which a conversation gets big enough that we definitely need to jump in and provide whatever context we can

To me, it's more a balance of realism vs community perception of what's important. Is it realistic for east coast servers to be ready yet? Hell no. Do a lot of players care deeply about this? Absolutely. That, to me, comes down to a discussion of what progress has been made and why other things seem to have higher priority.

If Riot is unable to explain priorities convincingly, in a way players are able to understand and accept, it's possible the priorities aren't right. A lot of people are willing to deal with something like "I'm sorry but X is something that's lower priority at the moment. We really need to fix Y, and these teams conflict with each other. We're happy to talk with you about X and address concerns, however.". As long as the priorities make logical sense and are presented well, a lot of people will be OK with it.

There will always be a minority (tons of people due to the size of LoL's community, unfortunately) that will disagree with everything. I know it's tough to see so many people being negative, but there are so many others that just want the clarity and openness.

Another part of the equation is subject matter expertise.

Definitely. I presume it gets a little difficult when, for example, there is a ton of discussion on x champion but the designer is extremely busy. I totally get that, and I'd be uncomfortable in either the situation of the non-expert talking to the community or the player listening to the non-expert.

That being said, has the possibility of having Rioters whose primary job is to assist with this burden been considered? Essentially, Rioters specifically hired to set up/run community projects (e.g. forum events, tournaments, maintaining volunteer groups like Wrenchmen) over the long term and help streamline communication. Many Rioters do this occasionally (KateyKhaos, for example, takes a lot of time to interact with us), but it doesn't seem there are Rioters where this is specifically their job and what they intend to spend their time doing.

I know your job title is Community Program Designer; does that mean you design and someone else maintains? Are the projects you work on intended for the global community or for specific communities like colleges or third-party sites?

RiotEscape Plan5 votes

Let me first say, speaking to you guys is never a “burden.” Your post is super in-depth and provides a great player perspective on our communication. Speaking to my position here, I actually work on our internal efforts to level up how we communicate with players, so your feedback on our communication is going directly to the source.

I want to start off here, as I believe I can address this and answer a few different questions along the way:

that being said, has the possibility of having Rioters whose primary job is to assist with this burden been considered? Essentially, Rioters specifically hired to set up/run community projects (e.g. forum events, tournaments, maintaining volunteer groups like Wrenchmen) over the long term and help streamline communication. Many Rioters do this occasionally (KateyKhaos, for example, takes a lot of time to interact with us), but it doesn't seem there are Rioters where this is specifically their job and what they intend to spend their time doing.

You’re right, there are times when there appears to be a dearth of information and that’s on us. As I said in my previous post, we’re working on building a better balance of meaningful information to status updates to long form content on philosophy, etc (and hopefully doing away with the long periods of silence), not just on the forums but on any channel where we release information. We’re not there yet, but we are working on it. We heavily encourage community awareness even among Rioters who don’t usually post, so threads like this, concerns/fears/questions about major issues, and feedback for us are all there for teams that need it and serve to help inform how we prioritize our work.

When it comes to typical communication, we don’t follow the structure of Player -> Community Manager -> Expert -> Community Manager -> Player, because the “community manager” position doesn’t exist here. As Rioters, we all take on the responsibility to communicate with players because we all understand how necessary it is to keep you updated, informed, and in the know. Our ultimate goal when engaging is to build and maintain your trust in us; having the people who work on stuff speak directly to you is, in our opinion, the best way to accomplish that.

That said, our measure for success is whether or not you’re getting what you need. One of the key things we’re working on is providing more organized venues that enable the devs to get out there and chat with you. Some of our recent efforts include expanding the number of Q&As we do on the boards with the people who’ve built new products or features, and dev blogs which aim to provide some of the same behind-the-scenes info you usually get from red posts. A few of us recently gave a panel at PAX where we outline what community means to us and what our team is currently doing (sorry for the poor quality).

We also have communication experts helping out the teams that most need a ton of communication output. Pwyff, Scarizard, and Pwnlove are just a couple of the people who’ve joined teams specifically with the goal of facilitating communication with players. They work with teams on making sure we’re getting the right info out to you guys in the right way, at the right times. We definitely don’t cover the whole company (and covering multiple languages is a whole ‘nother beast), so there’s a lot of room for improved coverage from our team and increased communication Riot-wide.

Hope I’ve been able to provide some useful insight

Daen1 votes

Thanks again. As is my style, let the point-by-point begin!

Let me first say, speaking to you guys is never a “burden.”

Oops. When I referred to lightening the burden I meant the consolidation and dispersion of information, as well as working on features such as change logs, patch notes (already handled by Community/Publishing, from what I've gathered), known bugs, etc. Definitely wasn't saying I thought you were burdened by communication, it's pretty clear that Rioters care a lot about it and enjoy the communication.

there are times when there appears to be a dearth of information and that’s on us.

I might be a minority here, but from a more global communication standpoint I'm referring to action rather than information dispersion. Having effective dialogue between Riot and the community is fantastic, and it does seem to have improved recently.

The thing I'm particularly interested in is the potential for Riot-community action; things like dedicated player programs (Wrenchmen, Emissaries) and initiatives that allow the community to connect in more meaningful ways (chat room improvements, client-Boards integration, games and events) are what really gets me going. I feel like I don't see a whole lot of that, but it might just be my biases and preconceived notions talking.

When it comes to typical communication, we don’t follow the structure of Player -> Community Manager -> Expert -> Community Manager -> Player

I really dislike this structure, and I'm very happy that Riot wants nothing to do with it. I might not be explaining myself well, I in no way want to see a separation of player and developer with CMs as a wall. I just wonder if the niche of community programs/events is being explored in a way that significant portions of the community can interact with and benefit from.

A few of us recently gave a panel at PAX where we outline what community means to us and what our team is currently doing (sorry for the poor quality).

Trust me, I've seen it. Pwyff gave some really great insight, and I'm super happy that you have as well. I love that you guys are on such similar wavelengths but have your own unique approaches, and I really wanted to see your perceptions of the concept.

They work with teams on making sure we’re getting the right info out to you guys in the right way, at the right times.

I am pretty sure I don't explain myself well with this concept, my apologies. I mentioned this above, but what really fascinates me is the opportunity for outreach and grassroots involvement, rather than discussion. Is this something the communications team is looking to pursue in a more...public sense? I know it happens with things like collegiate eSports, Cospitality, etc., but there's so much potential for it to happen on the Boards, in the client, even on third party sites!


Sorry, I'm on a huge tangent from the original point of the thread. As far as information communication is concerned, it's been getting worlds better lately. I'm really happy to see the community teams showing more presence on the forums, and the additional AMAs/Q&As are great for seeing some of the inner workings of design.

Sneak Dog1 votes

Have you been at the story board as of late? The very premise of the lore is getting retconned and the reasons outlined in the dev blog are just downright shaky. There's been tons of discussion on those boards, the given reasons have been argued against quite effectively (though valid other reasons for the retcon were brought up), but the narrative department just seems to think we should just accept the retcon is a thing and move on. No Q&A, barely any notifications (one dev blog), and we should just accept the premise of the lore is now different.

Personally, I can do that. I can't however accept one of my favorite champions getting retconned and replaced. Trundle got removed from the game and replaced by a new troll, but unlike something like the current Cassiopeia gameplay update, there was not even a chance of changing it. It was a great surprise, look how awesome the new troll is. Same with the new Xerath. There's major changes happening to old champions and they're shock releases on which no feedback can be gathered anymore. Listening to this panel a bit (it's late), but around 7:30 it says "don't break news". Shock releases are great for new lore/champions, not for old lore/champions.

I am severely disappointed in the lack of communication and feedback gathering on the great retcon. I just feel like criticising it is like talking to a brick wall. Narrative does its own thing and there's nothing we can do about it. I can't invest in a lore where my favorite characters can just get retconned and replaced on a whim of the narrative department.

My apologies if this is off-topic. I am just very frustrated with the lore and have been for a year already seeing how there seems to be entirely no chance of Trundle even getting looked at again.

Neurokinetics1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Escape Plan,realm=NA,application-id=bzRrPGQO,discussion-id=sdzJjIEd,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2014-12-16T21:24:32.611+0000)

This is definitely something we struggle with internally. The main difficulty with arbitrary answers is they don’t usually add much to the conversation and to some players may come across as dismissive rather than informative. Because of that, we’re trying to get better at providing something meaningful for you when we post – we don’t want a bunch of our interactions with you to be “soon” or “I can’t answer that yet.” On the other hand, there’s a point at which a conversation gets big enough that we definitely need to jump in and provide whatever context we can, even if it’s just “We’re working on it.” It’s a balance we’re always working on getting right; sometimes we do, sometimes we don’t.

Another part of the equation is subject matter expertise. I’m in communications, so you definitely don’t want me shooting off my mouth when it comes to art or anything else for which we have actual experts [See Attached: Escape Plan’s Shaco splash]. When experts talk about their work, they’re able to provide far more meaningful information and context, answer follow-up questions, and ultimately stimulate an authentic dialogue. Tl;dr we generally want you talking to the experts, not me (unless I am the expert).

Either that or you guys just delete it and pretend it didn't exist.

HeadHonchkrow1 votes

Upvoted because of Shaco

Sukishoo2 votes

That's funny cause I see plenty when looking at the Tracker http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/redtracker

Hyrum Graff2 votes

In my experience so far, boards has had burst of TONS of red activity (in which there are more reds than I saw on old GD), separated by frustratingly long periods of silence.

I'm a little hesitant to say that this change in activity pattern was caused by the switch to boards, although they occurred simultaneously. #Correlation!=causation

Essorance2 votes

don't worry i'm sure riot katekhaos will be in here soon posting pictures of animals

Urdnot Entar2 votes

If you want to see a real ghost town in terms of Riot posts, check out Bug Reports :P

MajorPain91 votes

Tried muplitle ways. On a mobile tablet, because these boards no longer work on my phone. Issue persists enough that I don't even bother with it anymore.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

Personally for me it works after a quick refresh, are you trying to access the Boards through public wi-fi or slow-ish wi-fi? I notice that issue happen a lot more often when I'm on campus on an overloaded router.

MajorPain91 votes

Generally doesn't matter the bandwidth, have had the issue at class, work and home on different wifi strentghts .

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

Ok, I can at least say you're not the only one with that issue. Weird thing though is that others have also never had the problem once. I'm not steeped enough in networking and site coding to venture a guess as to why though....

MajorPain91 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir ArmaMalum,realm=NA,application-id=bzRrPGQO,discussion-id=sdzJjIEd,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2014-12-15T17:45:57.660+0000) Ok, I can at least say you're not the only one with that issue. Weird thing though is that others have also never had the problem once. I'm not steeped enough in networking and site coding to venture a guess as to why though....

The forum absolutely will not work on a galaxy first gen phone ( my HTC one is being traded so I have it as a temp) and it won't loadany cocomments. Zero , zilch, 100% of the time. The HTC one was much better in this regard but still had many more issues than my PC at home.

GoldenLeSpoink1 votes

I like this board, I don't like the subreddit as much even though they have the same template. I think the problem with the boards is that it is filled with complaints about people all the time, while the subreddit is full of advice, funny league experiences and such.

More from Boards Feedback

More by MajorPain9