Once again explaining the issue with the Skarner rework but in another way.

SpecterVonBaren··87 votes·7,973 views

I have argued many times and made my feelings on this issue heard many times before this on how terrible the Skarner rework was. Having learned that they were going to, yet again, rework him because they realized it was a failure was offset by the fact that Repertoir has said that they like how well he's doing now that Dragon's are valuable and that they only intend for small changes.

This means that they still do not understand what the issue is with this rework and I am going to explain it again but with an example.

Let us say that Riot decides they want to make Xerath a point blank burst mage that's good against divers. Sounds like a silly choice yes?

But here's how they intend to do it, they make it so that all of his abilities do less damage the further they are from him, to such an extent that hitting with the very tip of your Q does less damage than his auto attacks. So suddenly Xerath's winrate against divers and melee champs is better than his winrate against ranged champs, people build him tanky ap with things like RoA and the new Hextech items, Riot deems it a success because now Xerath is doing what they wanted, he is good at super close range and bad at long range.

Now you tell me the obvious, this is completely ridiculous, Xerath is supposed to be a siege champ that has massive range, you haven't even changed his kit at all Specter, it's just made to be worse at range because of numbers. And this is exactly what's wrong with Skarner. His kit is not designed for neutral objective control, making it so his stats are terrible everywhere but around neutral objectives does not make him a good neutral objective controller, it makes him only useful around those objectives.

None of his skills are designed with the idea of controlling objectives and the rework was one of the shoddiest I've ever seen, it tried to make huge changes to how people play him with the least amount of effort possible by making his numbers better when near crystals and bad when not.

This is not something that can be remedied with small changes, either he needs to be redone to something like what he was before the rework or they need to completely destroy him and redo all of his abilities from the ground up. The last rework was a half-hearted attempt at making him different and another half-hearted attempt at fixing it will just result in further failure.

Please make my favorite bug great again.

http://i.imgur.com/wuvyekw.jpg

Edit: Someone has chided me for not giving my own solutions for Skarner. I admit, I too hate threads that just complain but don't suggest any solutions but ever since my application to Riot was rejected, I haven't felt much like posting ideas on the boards. Add to that that I have already given suggestions for this issue many times in the past and am tired of repeating myself about it and to no benefit and I think I'm justified in not posting any ideas in the OP. But I will do so now anyway since I had a discussion with someone else about how they could change Skarner.

One way to change Skarner is to make his ult capable of dragging his crystals but have it have a separate cooldown for using it on a crystal. This would allow you to SET UP where you want to put them so you could plan ahead on where you intend to fight. This would actually demonstrate some skill and require proper planing, both to set them up and to make sure you don't place one in a spot you could be zoned from. You'd have to reduce the range of the effects but at least this way you wouldn't be shackled to just fighting in the jungle.

Another thing would be to get rid of all the stat shit and instead make it so they give him utility or special effects on his abilities, the kinds of effects that would make him better at dealing with baron and dragon or maybe they'd give him his old passive on his Q again. Part of what makes the current crystals so bad is that they're just stat balls which is a lot of "invisible power" that Riot says they don't like.

Another would be to ditch the activation gimmick entirely and make it so Skarner's abilities, when used on the crystals, do more things. Maybe hitting his Q on a crystal causes it to ring out with a harmonic frequency that deals damage, or silences enemies for half a second, or maybe it slows enemies. Hitting his E on a crystal could cause a large beam of energy to shoot out towards the nearest enemy. Using his W while next to a crystal could apply his shield to all of his allies in range for half the value.

If we're talking about changes that involve the removal of the rock crutches, reverting him back to the version of him before the Juggernaut patch would be a fantastic solution that Riot would unfortunately never go for. So if it were something entirely different then perhaps make Skarner more like an actual scorpion, maybe remove his current ult and make his Q have him grab someone for a short time (Like .5 seconds) and make his E be a spammable short duration slow and his main damage source. Maybe make his W a crystal creator that has to be placed in the jungle or a bush and have it give him increased damage and so the idea is to drag someone to their doom into the crystal zone.

For now I'll need to stop since break ended but I'll continue this later.

67 Comments

ModKnightsKemplar31 votes

I hate the crystals, and I think Riot knows they aren't a great idea.

There are two kinds of minigames in LoL. There are minigames that involve everyone in the game, which usually suck, and there are minigames that involve just the champion and maybe one opponent.

The ones that force involvement from the whole game usually suck because they occupy so much of the game-space when they are present. I would put things like Skarner's crystals and GP's barrels in this category, just as the most egregious failures, perhaps.

Then there's the ideal minigame, like with Taric's passive interaction with his Q. The person playing Taric really cares about this minigame, and it directly affects your performance on the champion, but it doesn't require your opponent to think about it very much. Sure, they know that sometimes you can heal very big, and sometimes less, and that auto-attacking helps you heal for more in shorter spurts, and they can play around that. But they don't have to constantly worry about an object on the map, and getting steamrolled if they don't control if and watch it at all times.

Most minigames fall between these two, and I think that's okay, but when Riot introduces something like Skarner's crystals, they need to rework it. It just occupies too much of the game to justify it's existence, even if it's "balanced." It brings up, for me, the big discussion between balance and health/fun, which is what you seem to be onto, as well. Yes, he's balanced like this. That doesn't make him fun or interesting for the game. He is not. He is a bad champion right now, and it has nothing to do with balance.

SpecterVonBaren15 votes

I honestly don't think GP's barrels, as a mini-game itself, is bad, I think the real issue with them is just that failing to beat him at his minigame is too punishing. The idea of having these crystals to capture for some kind of bonus isn't necessarily a bad idea either its just that the reward and the champion the passive is attached to aren't good.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

That's a fair position, but lemme ask this, then...

Is there some reward that could be "good" and also balanced? Because I don't think so. I can see why you think it isn't that bad, but I can't think of anything that would feel good for the investment without being completely OP. Just my two cents.

SpecterVonBaren5 votes

If we're talking about the barrels, one change would be to get rid of the armor pen and instead make it an armor shred (Obviously for less since it would help everyone on his team) so that he brings another source of utility to his team alongside his ult and they won't have such stupidly high burst and will require him to follow up on using his barrels.

ModKnightsKemplar3 votes

I was mostly talking about Skarn. I just don't think he'll ever be fun with those crystals, and I do feel the same about GP's barrels, but your suggestion for those is a good one, for sure.

SpecterVonBaren6 votes

I actually have several ideas that they SHOULD have gone with. Ideas I came up with when this rework was first revealed to us in fact.

One is to make his ult capable of dragging his crystals but have it have a separate cooldown for using it on a crystal. This would allow you to SET UP where you want to put them so you could plan ahead on where you intend to fight. This would actually demonstrate some skill and require proper planing, both to set them up and to make sure you don't place one in a spot you could be zoned from. You'd have to reduce the range of the effects but at least this way you wouldn't be shackled to just fighting in the jungle.

Another thing would be to get rid of all the stat shit and instead make it so they give him utility or special effects on his abilities, the kinds of effects that would make him better at dealing with baron and dragon or maybe they'd give him his old passive on his Q again. Part of what makes the current crystals so bad is that they're just stat balls which is a lot of "invisible power" that Riot says they don't like.

Another would be to ditch the activation gimmick entirely and make it so Skarner's abilities, when used on the crystals, do more things. Maybe hitting his Q on a crystal causes it to ring out with a harmonic frequency that deals damage, or silences enemies for half a second, or maybe it slows enemies. Hitting his E on a crystal could cause a large beam of energy to shoot out towards the nearest enemy. Using his W while next to a crystal could apply his shield to all of his allies in range for half the value.

There are SO MANY ways that they could have made his crystals feel fun or satisfying, that's part of what galls me so much about it, they went with the laziest method for satisfaction by making them stat balls.

SlowChemical3 votes

I also really like these ideas. Obviously they would require a lot more work than was probably initially planned for the juggernaut rework, but if Skarner were to get the full-level rework time, I think your ideas here have real potential. It would make him truly unique and would make me excited to play him. As he is right now, I still do enjoy him but I find myself getting bored with him quickly, similar to playing say, Warwick.

Pierce The Veal3 votes

{quoted}

I honestly don't think GP's barrels, as a mini-game itself, is bad, I think the real issue with them is just that failing to beat him at his minigame is too punishing. The idea of having these crystals to capture for some kind of bonus isn't necessarily a bad idea either its just that the reward and the champion the passive is attached to aren't good.

Literally the only reason the crystals exist is because Riot gimped skarner too much otherwise.

Sire Hippington5 votes

This is not something that can be remedied with small changes

this is the only point i don't fully agree with. Remove the passive, give him a new one that always helps, like: Crystal Resonanz: dealing damage to a champion or monster with your spells gives a stack of Crystal resonanz, increasing AS, MS and Manaregen, stacking up to x times. Together with probably some numberchanges acroos the rest of the kit, this should bring him back to where he was befor: a tanky dps with heavy pickpotential and ramping up power for extendet fights, usable in jungle AND lane.

SpecterVonBaren11 votes

Changing the passive is not a small change, it is a big one.

Sire Hippington3 votes

changeing a single skill in his kit is as small as a change can get. Anything smaller than that would be tweaking numbers, which isn't any real (gameplay)change at all, just balanceing.

SpecterVonBaren5 votes

A small change is changing numbers or removing small parts of a kit like Tahm's W movespeed boost (Except when moving towards enemies). Even changing the passive of some champs can be a small thing depending on how important it is for the champ, the current change on PBE has it so Ekko's passive no longer slows which is a small change (Though a big deal in relation to tank Ekko).

However, Skarner's passive completely defines him right now because it sucks out so much of his power budget. Changing his passive would be a BIG change because it would also call for number changes on pretty much everything else in his kit since he'd need major buffs to his base damages and general stats.

Hawkefire5 votes

https://media.giphy.com/media/1Z02vuppxP1Pa/giphy.gif

FINALLY. Someone actually gets it.

Been saying virtually the same damn thing for a while, especially when people start spouting the bullshit of "rito shouldn't listen to player feedback because it made skarner broken huuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrr"....

WELL FFS IF THEY LISTENED TO WHAT THE FEEDBACK WAS SAYING, THEY WOULD HAVE SCRAPPED THE REWORK AND DONE IT OVER NOT !@#%$ING BUFFING HIM TILL IT WAS BROKEN! People weren't saying that he was weak they were saying that they hated that his power was all tied up into an incredibly conditional passive.

Spoofghoul4 votes

remove the damn spires let him collect crystals

crystals spawn bot randomly and drop from big monsters champion takedowns give 3 epic monster takedowns give 5

at least then he has incentive to grab the objectives & sting some enemies.

kinda like a combination of sion w and bard passive

give him a few stats an enhanced auto whatever

anything but the damn spires they are pure tumors

Messaiga5 votes

Rather than this, why not just turn the spires into a consumable buff. Think along the lines of Dominion's (rip) Storm Shield relic that could be captured in the middle of the map. Skarner would the only person able to interact with it, and upon capturing the spire it would disappear and grant him a buff for a bit. This buff would affect his abilities rather than give free stats. A change like this allows his stats to be sufficient at all locations on the map while giving him unique power for a short time, rewarding him for capturing a crystal spire at the optimal time.

Lets say the spire spawns in one of two spots on the map. One location is near baron pit, the other location is near dragon pit. A new spires spawns every 5 minutes and lasts 5 minutes (therefore whenever one spawns, the last one despawns).

Spoofghoul1 votes

yea that sounds interesting too

Eskimo5034 votes

Amen. They ripped Skarner kit of power and tied to 6 specific zones on the map that can be taken away by the enemy. Now both Skarner and the enemy team have to worry about capturing these zones. Its a lose lose situation and I feel really bad for Skarner mains :(.

Sohleks4 votes

Plus they lumped him in with juggernauts. And called him a juggernaut. He's nothing like Darius or Ill ow e, or Garen. ??? He's a juggernaut that's only good in particular zones? When he controls them? With an ult hardcountered by a popular ADC item?

With the sorry state his kit is in he was only usable in high tier play when he was strong enough to boast an overloaded 56% winrate.

So Volibear evades nerfs with a 54% winrate right? It's cause you can kite him and he's an ult cd dependent lower utility Udyr. Azir is god tier mid lane with a 45% winrate. It's because his kit is the most overloaded obnoxious disgusting thing ever.

Skarner is only competitive with a 56% solo queue winrate cause his kit with his current damage is THAT bad. Even then only the chinese LDG touched him in worlds that patch, got wrekt and dropped Skarner picks and dropped oughta group stages.

His kit is like Warwick tier. Not actually good unless it's patch 4.20 with a near 60% winrate.

You could make it so Skarner always owns the zones even enemy jungle and that's probably still not enough! It would help a lot so it doesn't alert enemies and let him counter jungle more stealthily and do what he's meant to do with these spires.

I actually thought he was enjoyable and niche before his last rework. Not anymore. I won't play him over Gragas or Zac or Vi.

Skarner's current winrate is irrelevant because only diehard Skaner players will use him so those who play him get "elo tuned" to a slightly lower rating than had they commited to more useful & lower counterplay champions.

DarkRitual3 votes

Here's an idea. Tie something into his kit with his new lore.

Crystals spawn around. They provide a buff of some sort (something that scales well through all parts of the game). Skarner has to reclaim the namestones, and gains some sort of reward for it. It should NOT be the ONLY way he is relevant (Sion HP passive, Kindred passive), but just one avenue.

Something like that would be neat.

iTaLenTZ3 votes

Repertoir is cancer. I don't know why they keep him as a champ designer just to ruin more champs with his fail reworks and lack of vision and character understanding. He singlehandedly ruins every champ he touches

Kledy McKledFace2 votes

id realy wish they never touched his w and his q -_- its so annoying now you dont ahve any sustain before like lvl 5 in the jungle and then again youll be a lvl behind the enemy jungler plus you wouldnt have ganked yet... I really feel his q needs to do 200% dmgs to monsters or give him full attack speed...

Predatorator2 votes

the W actually scales with total hp now, which is the second good thing that happened in this rework (the other one being the new mechaninc on his E), but yeah, his q is so empty now

Sad Tyrant1 votes

Ummm.... no..... If you do the math, he gets less shield in the early. here is old skarner's shield numbers 80/135/190/245/300 and here is his base health at level 2/4/13/18 666/805/1587/2131 only lvl 18 gets close to 300 If they gave it 100 base Value it would be sorted out

Predatorator1 votes

he gets less shield early on yeah, but remember that skarner usually is built tanky, so he ends up at around 3.5k hp. and i usually end up having a 500-600 hp shield in lategame.

Sad Tyrant1 votes

yeah but the thing is you could also build him not tanky and still be able to function properly. they basically forced him to be a slow arse tank. i admit the shield is good but they should of kept it at the level of his old W in the early game with like a 20-60 base value

Predatorator1 votes

this is another matter indeed. that being said, you're right, previusly skarner was alot more flexible in terms of builds, and that's a thing i miss about him. you can switch between one or two items, but in the end yeah, right now you can only build him tanky, with a bit of ad. previusly you could even build him full ap!

Sad Tyrant1 votes

Personally I loved going Devourer Skarner

Predatorator1 votes

devourerer and tri force, and sometimes switfies, for the strong independent skarner that doesn't need to ask for help =)

Sad Tyrant1 votes

[slayer-pantheon-rainbows]

Ethyreon2 votes

As someone who was a Morde main when Morde actually had an identity: preach my friend, preach.

LostFr0st1 votes

You haven't suggested any way to "fix" him though. This is just firing shots. The only things I don't like about the rework is the Q and that the passive shows people where you are on the minimap (which they are discussing getting rid of). I miss the phage on the Q, but that's it. I love the new W, new E, and the way the E works with his Ulti.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Forgive me. I shall edit my post to add some suggestions. However, as to your feelings about his new kit, I don't see how you can miss the old phage on his Q but not also the stun passive on it, the attack speed boost, and the better damage. I despise his current E because it's made ganking so dependent on landing it, miss it because you're trying to gank a hyper mobile champ like Lucian, Fiora or Ekko? Well now you get to walk back into the jungle because that's all you got. His previous passive made it so as long as you kept up with them enough to hit them with his Q's, you'd eventually be able to stun them long enough to get a kill.

LostFr0st1 votes

For a hyper-mobile champ you'd rarely get the 3Qs anyways and forget ganking mid back then (which you can now do).

For those champs you listed (which are usually top/bot) there is enough space in the lane that your E is usually point-blank anyways so its not that hard to hit. There's nothing forcing you to use it before their dash if you're behind them already (river gank specifically). Don't forget the new ms boost on his ult so you can actually get the target back to your team.

kaltenashes1 votes

join in the S2 RR's reworks <3 train

plz RR, i beg of you to rework akali, make her a champ that i dont wanna play ever again (just like you did with your version of Quinnndred)

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

???

kaltenashes1 votes

RioRepetoir, the guy making awesome reworks for us

l Helios l1 votes

Please make my favorite arachnid great again.

FTFY :)

I see your point though. The kit would need to be changed to be a neutral objective thing as opposed to just changing stats.

Lamarson1 votes

logged in to upvote RiotRepetoir. lets not give heat to one of the better riot employees.

NaturesMayhem1 votes

Honestly I feel like Skarner is broken atm and is a hidden menace against carrys. He is in the same way OP as Malz is op. You run at the carry ult them then E stun then just go ham on the enemy team with your super tankiness and nice damage making you impossible to ignore in teamfights and drawing focus from your squishy allies. I am not complaining but merely noteing this because I am a skarner main. I am Silver 4 previously Bronze 4. I climbed all those divisions with skarner alone, whenever I get jg that is. He has amazing early game clear and sustain and I end up ganking an enemy lane and continuing to jg in till I am almost lvl 7. Skarner is a champion who lacks luster and outplay fun but he is a complete menace in any game where team positioning or cc control is poorly handled.

Iceborn Pippin1 votes

As someone who played Skarner when he first came out, I am just simply annoyed with his current mini game passive. And no. Its not because its a mini game, it just feels like busywork.

Wild Geese1 votes

The spires are so dumb, I laugh every time I see them. I feel sorry for these Skarner players to actually have to interact with them.

BlueNoize1 votes

I used to play Skarner pre rework quite a bit. None since. I do not enjoy the crystals either, they make you a big target, and you are useless everywhere but the jungle. It's boring.

Autrah Fang1 votes

{quoted}

I used to play Skarner pre rework quite a bit. None since. I do not enjoy the crystals either, they make you a big target, and you are useless everywhere but the jungle. It's boring.

not to mention you need to explain what his spires are almost every game because no one has seen skarner before..

Feel Apathy1 votes

Carry Skarner might not be a thing but he's pretty damn good atm http://i.imgur.com/sxFmdb3.png?1

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

Did you know that Urgot has a 52% winrate? Would you say that his design is fine?

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Again, as I said above, it has nothing to do with balance.

The champ isn't healthy. You are RIGHT that he's strong, it's just that none of us care as much about that as the game as a whole being healthy. And, in the context of this discussion, Skarner finding a fun, healthy place to be in that space.

Lugg1 votes

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Skarner was my favorite jungler before the rework and I don't even play him anymore. The crystal mini-game is horrible IMHO. He is definitely over-powered when affected by it and under-powered when he isn't. They only needed to tweak his previous kit and he would have been fine.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

It's sad that the juggernaut update ultimately ended up royally screwing most of the juggernauts.

Skarner Dead

Mordekaiser Dead

Sion Good kit, terrible numbers, play rate indicates he's semi-dead

Garen Pubstomper, otherwise, dead

Darius This Juggernaut was the only one who actually came out great. He has his clear strengths and weaknesses and his 50% win rate and decent play rate showcase how incredibly good his rework was. If riot wants to rework a juggernaut, they should take this guy into account.

4NoxiousHours1 votes

I was roaming Skarner stuff on google and happen to find this thread here in the boards. This is very well explained. I feel in great disappointment how none of these suggestion or even a rioter has come to address their thoughts on this. Indeed, RIP Skarner.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

It's also disappointing that the small changes I mentioned in the OP never happened and I don't recall there ever being any word from Riot on why they weren't implemented. I'm just really outdated with my jungle champs I guess, the only one I still feel comfortable with is Maokai and he's balanced around top lane.

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