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@ Riot, in regard to the Lulu changes on PBE

SpecterVonBaren··303 votes·24,531 views

"Lulu

Whimsy (W) AP ratio reduced to 5% per 100 AP from 10% per 100 AP.
Wild Growth (R) bonus health lowered to 200/350/500 from 300/450/600"

Stop it. Please just fucking stop it.

Two years ago when solo lane Lulu became a thing in the LCS you made the decision to support it because you liked how she worked there but after repeated nerfs because of her solo laning you've knocked her almost completely out of the Support role and now she's only rarely seen in solo lanes outside of the LCS and barely, if ever, seen as a support.

Stop kicking your heels about keeping her the same in a solo lane and as a support and just fucking nerf solo lane Lulu only with this.

Glitterlance

Active: Lulu and Pix, Pix each fire a magic bolt towards the target point, dealing magic damage to all units they pass through and slowing them by 80%, decaying over a short duration. Units are only affected by one bolt.

**Deals X% less damage to minions. **

Straightforward nerf to solo lane Lulu with her being unable to clear minions as well while also buffing Support Lulu through making her not push the wave to poke her enemy. Or do something else, I don't care what you do, just stop nerfing Support Lulu. Your goal is to nerf solo lane Lulu because that's where she's causing problems and you've instead kept giving her across the board nerfs so that her Support role becomes weaker and weaker, even while hard engage supports have gotten more and more popular.

I don't care how much LCS loves solo lane Lulu, I want to be able to pick Lulu as a Support without worrying about being a detriment to my team. Nerf her scaling, buff her bases, do anything that specifically nerfs her solo lane but do it while giving Support Lulu some kind of compensation after years of being nerfed for something she didn't cause.

Sincerely, A Utility Support Main

http://orig15.deviantart.net/55db/f/2015/209/3/e/pool_party_lulu___league_of_legends__with_video___by_knockwurst-d938ozy.jpg

Edit: I'm very glad to see so many people feel the same about Riot's treatment of Support Lulu for so long, hopefully someone will see our posts and think of other ways to deal with solo lane Lulu.

177 Comments

Audiomancy85 votes

+1 from an ex-Lulu support main. This is just the final nail in the coffin for her.

dark100dark10017 votes

I never understand while they are literally killing champions. They absolutely don't understand the difference between balance with skill. Lulu is weak, and players need a lot of practice to play her. And because of that Lulu performs better than brain dead champs, played by unskilled kids. But that does not mean Lulu is good! The players who invested a lot of time to learn her are good. I was Lulu supp main, but I had to move to TK and Braum. They are killing support TK now. I think Riot simply does not like support role. A few more patches and they will change the game to 4v4.

EcchiOtakuTM17 votes

It's because of protection comps who take lulu solo lanes. Lulu is just severely getting hit because of how well she does in premade teams atm.

Wish they could just gutter lane lulu and buff supp lulu somehow.

They should just gutter lulu's wave clear that in itself would greatly hurt lane lulu.

StoryDuck7 votes

The support role rarely seems to enter into the decisions of Riot balances. When it does....its is almost always a nerf.

Vistha Kai1 votes

Well... they are trying to make support Karma a thing, maybe.

StoryDuck1 votes

I saw that! A rare occurrence. I really like playing Karma support too so it is exciting. Luckily "Almost always" isn't always. This would be one of those very rare occasions. I would not be surprised in the least to see them revert it.

Vistha Kai2 votes

Sadly as a side effect they are making her even more one-dimensional champion.

Slave155 votes

Tahm Kench was at 49% win rate when they started nerfing him in 6.1 (and 3 big nerfs in a row now)

His WR now sits at 44% and he's basically out of the game because he's so weak. It's pretty apparent that the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing now. Riot is just too big anymore.

Dengeden7 votes

Are you completely serious? TK was the most complained about champion on here bar none. Riot keeled over and nerfed every aspect the community hated about him.

I am Razgriz2 votes

Except the stuff that matters. Like your stacks not falling off if he stuns you.

Abyssphere3 votes

{quoted}

Tahm Kench was at 49% win rate when they started nerfing him in 6.1 (and 3 big nerfs in a row now)

His WR now sits at 44% and he's basically out of the game because he's so weak. It's pretty apparent that the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing now. Riot is just too big anymore.

Tahm deserved every nerf he got. When even the champion's designer indicates that he's a stat check champion you know there's a problem.

Jesei2 votes

Sure, the community are always right about nerfs, tahm sits on a garbage tier atm, but still permabanned because people don't want to try to play against it, if he was so op, he would be over picked anytime, but he's not

GuiltyGecko20 votes

She's a problem in competitive play because she is:

  • Safe Lulu is able to farm from a distance with Q and E. Her W and R make her difficult to gank.
  • Abusive Against melee champions, it's difficult to stick to lulu with her range, slow, speed, and shield. Even against ranged champions, not many can out range her EQ harass.
  • Consistent Lulu only has 1 skillshot, and her damage is "good enough" to still play the AP carry role. I can't think of a single pro that LIKES to play against Lulu. Her ban rate is something like 60% in pro play.

Lulu's win rate overall isn't really that high, and she isn't as popular in solo queue as she is in competitive play. This nerf is specifically aimed at that.

Edit: I'm confused about the downvotes? I don't think the nerfs on PBE are appropriate, I'm just explaining why she's getting them. I think her solo queue performance isn't stellar, and these nerfs are being caused by her performance in pro play. Did I word something wrong?

Zone of Endless20 votes

{quoted}

She's a problem in competitive play because she is:

  • Safe Lulu is able to farm from a distance with Q and E. Her W and R make her difficult to gank.
  • Abusive Against melee champions, it's difficult to stick to lulu with her range, slow, speed, and shield. Even against ranged champions, not many can out range her EQ harass.
  • Consistent Lulu only has 1 skillshot, and her damage is "good enough" to still play the AP carry role. I can't think of a single pro that LIKES to play against Lulu. Her ban rate is something like 60% in pro play.

Lulu's win rate overall isn't really that high, and she isn't as popular in solo queue as she is in competitive play. This nerf is specifically aimed at that.

We're talking about support Lulu. We know why they're nerfing her but they're nerfing her the wrong way. The repetitive nerfs to lane Lulu is really hurting support Lulu to the point where almost no one ever plays her bot anymore.

They could have lowered her AP ratio or just make glitterlance do 75% dmg to minions instead.

GuiltyGecko10 votes

I agree. My post was just to explain the nerf for those that don't understand why it's happening. I think the nerfs on PBE are going in the wrong direction as well :3

DeynaTaggerung9 votes

I don't think the necessity of nerfs is in question here, it's a matter of solo lane lulu is screwing over support lulu

Loli Lulu9 votes

On the bright side, this is still PBE and not released. There's still a chance Riot will pull the changes, alter the nerfs, or throw in a bone for Support Lulu.. But yeah, the continued nerfs are really hurting Support Lulu, which was on the lower end viability at best.

ScarnMichaelScar8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Loli Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E6dKU64b,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-03-10T23:35:20.587+0000)

On the bright side, this is still PBE and not released. There's still a chance Riot will pull the changes, alter the nerfs, or throw in a bone for Support Lulu.. But yeah, the continued nerfs are really hurting Support Lulu, which was on the lower end viability at best.

Lulu is not LeeSin don't get your hopes up.

Vistha Kai3 votes

90%+ PBE changes goes live without any modifications.

Unless you are Lee Sin or Mandrake Ward.

Pledgie8 votes

You know, this post really breaks my heart. For a number of reasons. I made a post like this about sona when her rework went live on the pbe and i brought a ton of facts and numbers and their significance on the changes and it got a ton of upvotes and support from the community but no red. I even tried to contact Fearless, (Rioter who mainly worked on her rework) but i got nothing. I hate to say it but unless RiotRepetoir is behind the scenes on this lulu nerf, i doubt you will get any actual meaningful context on these changes from riot. but my suggestion is try to find out who is instigating this lulu nerf and write them an email directly that addresses your concerns, and also check out the pbe forums for any red post on the context for the lulu changes.

HellhamerX8 votes

RITO JUST STOP NERFING BECAUSE OF PRO PLAY! THEY ARE THE 1%

Frick Mako6 votes

If Riot wants to nerf solo lane Lulu without nerfing support Lulu, they should probably decrease her AP ratios, since Lulu support does not build as much AP.

SlyTactician 6 votes

Honestly, this.

As a Lulu support main, it saddens me to see these nerfs. Does solo lane Lulu deserve nerfs? Absolutely - that I won't deny. She's too strong in terms of waveclear, damage and utility all around. However, these nerfs are just going to hurt her support strengths as well. She's already been struggling as a support for a while now, and it's a shame considering how much utility she provides to a team.

I feel her Q - Glitterlance, should get reduced waveclear damage so that she isn't too strong in solo lanes. As a champion designed for support, I feel she could really get more love in regards to her support role. It's a shame that she's already considered a "meme" pick as a support champion at this point of time.

Tl; Dr?

Lulu deserves nerfs in her solo lane experience, but these nerfs are a step in the wrong direction in regards to Lulu support. Lulu (aka "Suppordle") should still be viable despite constant nerfs to her in the wrong direction.

WinnieBlue5 votes

As a Lulu main with mastery 5 on 3 accounts, 90% of the time I play her as a support. I totally agree that these nerfs are in the wrong direction. Her scaling is too good for utility, so nerfs should happen for solo lane Lulu, but a compensation for support Lulu needs to happen before she's thrown in the trash tier pile. I feel the best path, as OP stated, is for glitterlance to do reduced damage to minions, or for her E to do less to no damage to enemies, but increase her damage while it's attached to an enemy. At least, as a compensation to these nerfs, buff her base sheild with E. Thoughts?

jQuery5 votes

Lulu was the first champion I bought. I started to play support because of her....

And then direct nerfs... indirect nerfs...

I even reroll her for ARAM...

Ghiefelstein3 votes

I just wish I could pick support Lulu without feeling like a burden to my team...

Cloud2734 votes

Lulu top is not as bad as people claim. She has less than a 50% win rate in all of her roles (including top). And merc treads got buffed recently, so she's even easier to deal with. And her damage and scaling on her abilities is not good at all. Just burst her with your abilities and watch her die. If you can't burst her by yourself, call your jungler. It's literally that easy. Also she isn't manaless. Unlike champions like Riven, Renekton, etc she can't just sit in lane and spam her abilities all day.

TLDR Lulu is a healthy champ. Get good please.

Just Me Talon4 votes

remove all AP scaling from her

im not even kidding when I say that too

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

Honestly, the whole issue with supports going to solo lanes could be fixed if Riot would knuckle down and remove the AP scaling for their utility and introduce a new stat called Utility (Original, I know) that they could place on items they intend for supports to build.

By making it so you have to choose between damage or utility means solo laning with a sup just means they get to do more damage or get tanky faster but your utility will suffer because you're not buying items for that.

CGJung4 votes

this is horribly true. The nerf on her ultimate is just too hard and that ultimate is already pretty meh unless you are mid and have a ton of AP, which excludes lulu support. I love how riot is always careful at nerfing other champions but when it comes to AP support they just throw some lower numbers.

SwiftKitten883 votes

they did the same thing to Nidalee this patch.. nid was a very good top and mid a little over a year ago and a "ok" support then they decided to let her jugnle and completly destroyed her ability to do her other lanes nerf after nerf.. and now their making it almost impossible for her to jungle.. so i know EXACTLY how you feel.. but unlike you nobody but me cares about my postion becuase all they ever knew was "jungle nid" during her OP stage.. and your only losing ONE lane.. i lost THREE, four if you count jungle now..

I Want Support3 votes

Literally logged in to upvote this. Support Lulu is trash right now, and this will literally make her almost unplayable as a support. I really hate not being able to have fun with my ex-main.

blfUvZ8Ybu2 votes

What is your nerf advice?

SpecterVonBaren40 votes

One example is to do as I said above and make her Q do less damage to minions. With weaker waveclear she will be much less viable in a solo lane like how Nami has never seen high ranked play in a solo lane because she has terrible waveclear.

They could also reduce her passive damage but make it so it deals increased damage when an ally uses it with her E.

They could also keep the current nerf to her ult but make it give more health when used on allies.

Reducing her scalings while increasing her bases would also be a simple way to nerf solo lane Lulu.

There are many ways to specifically target solo lane Lulu but they always just go for blanket nerfs when it comes to her.

Audiomancy24 votes

Nami has terrible waveclear

I see what you did there.

PhoenixOfHeaven25 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shock n Awe,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E6dKU64b,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2016-03-11T00:51:37.526+0000)

I Sea what you did there.

There. Fixed it for ya.

Mhihnj3 votes

fished it for ya

i am going to leave now

SlyTactician 8 votes

Just gonna point out that I like these ideas in regards to solo lane Lulu nerfs. Her waveclear is indeed too strong at the timebeing and the change in her ult giving allies more health as opposed to Lulu herself makes sense considering how Lulu should have been when designed as a support.

Lulu's pokes are nice, but her Q is just too strong. Timing hits with Glitterlance along with Pix's passive shot would make her attacks more rewarding as opposed to the way it is spammed when she is in solo lane. Additionally, we already do have many top/mid laner Yordle characters, it would be nice to have Lulu as a stronger support as opposed to being kept in the solo lane experience for so long.

PePsiLemoNN4 votes

Ok , so someone made a post complaining about something and then came up with ideas? Where am I ?

Unvictus2 votes

{quoted}

One example is to do as I said above and make her Q do less damage to minions. With weaker waveclear she will be much less viable in a solo lane like how Nami has never seen high ranked play in a solo lane because she has terrible waveclear.

They could also reduce her passive damage but make it so it deals increased damage when an ally uses it with her E.

They could also keep the current nerf to her ult but make it give more health when used on allies.

Reducing her scalings while increasing her bases would also be a simple way to nerf solo lane Lulu.

There are many ways to specifically target solo lane Lulu but they always just go for blanket nerfs when it comes to her.

Riot hire this man! All great and creative ideas that would all be a viable solution. Nice work man!

Boulderox2 votes

also nami's spell rotations are 10sec + compared to her 7 sec Q and the fact her AA's do more than Nami's VERY slow AA animation, but i do wish nami could have some time in the limelight again :/ she has so much going for her but most supports now either HAVE to be tanks, or have the ability to scale in lane, which nami doesn't really help towards accomplishing, cc, but not much else when her most useful skill is kinda difficult to use out of the gate. and people i don't think even know what her e does to them,...

Athenes Lulu1 votes

Current nerfs are fine. Lulu support hardly ever builds enough AP to "scale" into anything, unless her team is insanely fed and ahead that there's just no need for defense. In fact, these nerfs hurt solo more than support, if even. Ult is used to disrupt and knockup, not a healing tool.

Though your proposed nerfs are just as great. Something like a 20/15/10/5/0% reduced damage to lane minions (because jungle Lulu wants some fun too) would be nice.

WinnieBlue6 votes

My main issue is the nerf to the base bonus health on her R. So many times this has saved my adc or ally. It's a big hit to level 6 to reduce the health by 100. It doesn't even affect solo Lulu very much since the damage and poke from her EQ combo remains. I rarely use Whimsy to speed team mates unless it's a hard engage that requires one to be in the action, but the polymorph is still way more effective overall. This just feels like a kick in the guts to support Lulu and I feel it won't do much to reduce solo Lulu's lane pattern.

Athenes Lulu1 votes

It's usually shields that saves my allies, not the ult heals, especially since it is usually better off used as a knockup tool.

In a 1v1 situation, especially midlane, that's a huge nerf. In a 2v2, not as much.

Lulu support hardly ever builds AP, so nerfing any form of scaling will not do much to her general power botlane.

WinnieBlue6 votes

Just to reiterate, the base bonus health is affected, not the scaling health. So a support Lulu that doesn't build AP is affected regardless. If anything, it's encouraging players to now build more AP.

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

Plus the W nerf just makes her even more of a solo laner too. They reduced the scaling but even Support Lulu likes some AP, this just makes Support Lulu scale even worse than solo Lulu so there's even less reason to pick her as a sup. Unless they buffed the base movespeed then it's just yet another way to force solo lane Lulu.

Dunkrius2g1 votes

Wrong nerfs? Then nerf her right. She needs nerfs no matter what.

SlyTactician 5 votes

Lulu's nerfs should focus more on her Q damage from Glitterlance rather than continuously making nerfs that make her support role even weaker.

Dunkrius2g4 votes

Thats fine. I hate the fact that she can solo lane and scale every second the game goes on.

SlyTactician 3 votes

That I can agree with. It's very difficult to balance a champion who was originally designed a support when they go to a solo lane.

Champions like Alistar, Janna and Soraka all saw solo lane gameplay earlier on - but were nerfed due to how oppressive and safe they were despite how much damage they could push out.

Lulu really is in a similar spot here and I honestly would rather see more love for Lulu support. She definitely needs less damage in the solo lane; however.

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