Meddler, any changes planned for tanks right now?

Melledoneus·Jun 29, 2016·66 votes·2,622 views

The meta for tanks is an absolute mess, and that is because of two reasons:

Too much damage across the board.
Tanks are building damage because they can't simply tank anymore and be effective.

I think there needs to be a general overhaul of tank items, namely to give them the ability to punish carries for focusing them in team fights rather than being life-steal wells for ADCs. But for the time being, since the assassin update is happening, do you guys plan to make a small band-aid to help out tanks? They are a central part of League and I feel that if we can't solidify their roles as the damage-soakers and initiators/defenders of the team, there is something fundamentally wrong with LoL. They simply melt too fast and need some help right now.

Any thoughts?

114 Comments

redniwediSJun 29, 201621 votes

Finally a thread about tanks that is actually talking about Tanks. You've got my upvote.

MelledoneusJun 29, 201617 votes

Fizz Ekko Akali

https://i.imgflip.com/16ncuh.jpg

Jokes aside, I agree. People misuse the term "tank" so much it's lost its meaning. People think tank only means "look at me, high HP and resistances," rather than "I trade damage and mobility for tankiness and the ability to deal non-lethal effects to the back line."

RalanrJun 29, 20164 votes

Come on Mel, let us be serious in this discussion.

Those abominations can be saved for M&G.

MelledoneusJun 29, 20163 votes

The whole game can be saved for M&G, then. The fact that the meta is shifting towards damage and damage only makes it so stat-check-y that the game is a joke right now. If you don't build Titanic Hydra on Shen, you're absolutely useless. Did you know that?

RalanrJun 29, 20161 votes

No. I have never bothered to build it on Shen.

I just get Bork and Wit's end with Red smite and build tanky. I don't like split pushing.

MelledoneusJun 29, 20162 votes

When you play at the elo I do, you usually, AS THE TANK MIND YOU, end up carrying. Then they rely on you for everything, including split pushing. Also, titanic hydra helps me chunk carries and duel the bruisers. But in the end, you have the highest KDA. Why? Because bot lane was a farm lane and the 3 way gank against your 25% HP between a Xin Zhao, a Yasuo, and a Riven ended up in you getting a triple kill thanks to your amazing mind games.

I bet you want to know the trick behind that now.

RalanrJun 29, 20161 votes

Was it a triple E, Q, W? Cause that combined with red smite is usually how I beat people with the glowing sword.

MelledoneusJun 29, 20163 votes

Nope.

I danced around the turret. I held onto my E as the Xin Zhao walked into turret range with Yasuo, and walked toward him suddenly as if I was going to get in range to taunt him. He backed off a bit, leaving the poor Yasuo within tower range. I pulled my sword through Yasuo as he chased me through the turret, seeing no other way out, and I used my Q with the shield to proc Grasp of the Undying and survive his auto attacks, and walked away as the slow allowed the turret to finish him off. Meanwhile, Xin Zhao and Riven flanked me from both sides. Riven had used her ult, which was why I was low, and Xin Zhao walked toward me as Riven used her shield to tank the first turret shot. She E-Q'd toward me to get quick damage, but I predicted this and dashed straight at Xin Zhao, nicking him with the hitbox of my E. I pulled my sword again, getting some autos off to heal with the minimal spell vamp/lifesteal that masteries offered, and Xin Zhao fell to the turret. My Q had pulled through Riven, who realized her folly of dealing with a charged up turret, and tried to back away, but the slow on my Q allowed her to eat two turret shots and die to minion aggro.

That, my friend, is how you survive a three man gank as Shen.

RalanrJun 29, 20163 votes

This is why you never tower dive a tank.

MelledoneusJun 29, 20164 votes

This is why you never underestimate Shen players.

They might just surprise you. Well, none have surprised me yet. But one day, I will be defeated at the hands of a better Shen player. And then, I will become his student.

RalanrJun 29, 201616 votes

Again, DPS champions are meant to counter tanks, so items to punish them for hitting tanks might be a problem.

redniwediSJun 29, 20168 votes

I wouldn't say they are meant to. League's gone back and forth a bit about which classes of champion counter which.

Thornmail once was a good item after all, and Rammus was a good idea for a champion. It's not that one is meant to counter the other, but rather some people still like the old system of counters and want to bring elements from it into the current state of the game.

RalanrJun 29, 201615 votes

If that's the case, then we'd need to redefine the strengths, weaknesses, and counters of tanks.

redniwediSJun 29, 20166 votes

Agreed.

RalanrJun 29, 201613 votes

Well I know that the biggest thing tanks need is to be tanky. To actually survive in the middle of teamfights.

Tanks also need to be impactful in fights. They can't just be a meat shield, they need ways to keep attention on them and make it chaotic for the enemy (more or less).

They also need to be viable in solo positions (personal preference, I don't want tanks to only be good in support) which means being able to duke it out in top.

MelledoneusJun 29, 201615 votes

{quoted}

Well I know that the biggest thing tanks need is to be tanky. To actually survive in the middle of teamfights.

THIS. Tank items have been consistently nerfed in favor of the bruiser meta, and damage has been risen to astronomical levels for no reason. Damage creep has become a reality that needs to be reversed.

Tanks also need to be impactful in fights. They can't just be a meat shield, they need ways to keep attention on them and make it chaotic for the enemy (more or less).

Unless you're Braum , I agree. Meat shield is only one job a tank can have. They have to have the tools to either wreak havoc on the enemy carries, or foil the villainous schemes of assassins. Either way, tanks need a way to be relevant, such as reliable CC, applied debuffs, or a delayed threat such as team splitting or singling out carries.

They also need to be viable in solo positions (personal preference, I don't want tanks to only be good in support) which means being able to duke it out in top.

THIS. Tank itemization early on is awful. Doran's shield is such a joke that I always opt to take ruby crystal or cloth armor, depending on the matchup. And if you're against an AP top... good luck. That's the story of Dante's Inferno for you. That being said, tanks need early game damage to remain a threat during the laning phase. Good examples are Shen and Sion. Shen can easily chunk down your health if he passes his sword through you, especially after dash-taunting you. Sion can slow you, reducing your armor, then smashing your HP down a huge chunk with his Q. While they aren't exactly the gladiator-type fighters who enter lane to get a kill, they have tools to pressure, zone, and kill their opponents. This is how tanks can get ahead, and they should not be guttered in lane just because they don't build damage.

RalanrJun 29, 20164 votes

Could not have said it better. The laning phase for tanks sucks for itemization (and fuck AP top. And ranged top laners, which AP top fall under!)

MelledoneusJun 29, 20165 votes

I think top lane turrets should have a bit more range. That way, those stupid ranged top laners eat a turret shot if they try to poke me while I farm.

RalanrJun 29, 201612 votes

Or give Doran's a ranged damage mitigation buff.

Or something.

MelledoneusJun 29, 20163 votes

That would actually make me consider taking it.

WoonStruckJun 30, 20161 votes

Except I'm pretty sure the meta would shift to having adc+support top then for the added safety and guarantee of income.

RalanrJun 30, 20163 votes

So top laners just fight each other in bot?

Ok. Nothing really changes except that tanks and fighters have more impact on dragon while the carry just farms more.

...actually I don't see a problem here.

BluePolarizerJun 29, 20162 votes

depends on what type of tank.

Engage tanks (vanguards) have strong AOE offensive CC, high damage soaking, offensive gap closers and high burst damage.

they have atrocious escapes most of the time and low sustained damage, but they are pretty bursty and you can't just let them engage you as a squishy.

Malphite Sejuani Zac Alistar Leona Sion Nautilus

defensive tanks (wardens) have mostly single target CC, more slows and utility, extremely high damage soaking, weak gapclosers and weak-moderate burst damage. Still not much sustained damage. Shen Maokai Rammus Thresh TahmKench Braum

I actually think that some champs that are currently skirmishers or divers should be reclassified and balanced as Vanguards since that's how they're played Ekko RekSai .

SpoofghoulJun 30, 20161 votes

lol sion a vanguard

no sorry i get why one would think that but honestly sion currently barely fits any of the tank classifications

hes more warden then vangaurd becasue the only thing he can do (semi)reliably is zone off enemies and peel but even that is highly unreliable

he has no reliable engage tools he doesnt even have anything reliable in his kit really except you can stand in front of people so they hit you instead or put your q over your team so people think twice about going in on them.

hes not even reliably tanky because he has extremely poor base stats and relies on farming to get health rather then leveling up his armor though well thats always low

maokai on the other hand has probably the most reliable engage tool of all tanks he points at you he clicks at you and youre fucked because he goes untargetable and roots you in place Has high base stats a sustain ability and a aoe damage reduction ult which will make him always usefull.

such a night and day difference based on the root alone i would classify maokai as the vangaurd over sion

RalanrJun 30, 20162 votes

You could say that Sion is in the middle ground of the tank class, though I see him as a vanguard.

WyrmbladeJun 30, 20163 votes

Reliability doesn't change his class, while Sion does peel a lot of the time, his primary purpose is to use his ridiculous health pool to put extreme pressure on the enemy team.

agbudarJun 29, 20165 votes

the problem is that basically anyone can kill a tank atm.

YaskamasandwichJun 29, 201611 votes

Anyways onto the real dilemma of real tanks. I personally believe tanks suffer from two issues.

Wall of text incoming.

Here's issue number one: Tank kits and Tank items

The whole shifting power from tank items into their kit will make things worse. Instead it should be somewhat the opposite, tanks need a devoted tank only item that improves only tankyness by buying tank only items, if that wasn't a tongue twister sorry, that lets say costs 4k gold or around there. By that I mean Mages have item 3089 that improves the more AP you get and is costly. Marksmen have item 3031 that improves the higher your crit chance becomes. Tanks used to have item 1413 but it was doing it's job too well for the amount it cost and removed any other type of jungler, and so was basically nerfed to the ground. There has to be an item like Cinderhulk but for lane tanks, that way real tanks top lane will stay, and it won't hopefully crowd out other combos and viable top lane champions like Cinderhulk did, like perhaps assassins and such going top lane depending on team comp.

If you move more power into all tanks kits then I guarantee you that all tanks will become support, it will either be support tanks or bust. Lets look at history shall we.

Alistar was not only a top lane tank but also a jungler with a kit so powerful that he had to be nerfed into support. Blitzcrank was suppose to be in top lane, but with that one trick pony god hand, he grabbed his way into support. Leona was entirely designed to be top lane first and foremost to help the team with stuns for days, but since she really didn't need items due to her stuns and her w giving her so much armor and mr, she moved to support. Nautilus poor poor big daddy, he tried, he really did try. But just like Alistar his cc bot kit basically has forced him into support role. He may still go into top lane but your team better form around that, and top it off with a prayer that the enemy has the perfect comp to fail against top lane big daddy. Shen support was a major thing, not sure if it is still. TahmKench is op if he isn't a support, even in his glory days before his nerfs, he was a very well balanced support. Just his abuse of top lane has left him in a poor position. Yeah he is more of a Juggernaut but still felt like including him. Malphite Maokai Poppy were even used as support for a little while, but due to meta shifts and nerfs to Poppy that changed, but hey could happen again with them shifting back to support, happened to Maokai before probably will again. And last thing I can think of but certainly not least as a personal main. Sion ... Sion? REALLY! The one tank champion that should not be support! The one big guy who is all about being alone and crushing his allies being in the way of his enemies and not caring is slowly turning into support!? Why don't they make a marksman Mordekaiser oh wait ... ah crap! The only tanks that will probably never become a support are the junglers Amumu , Sejuani , Rammus Not sure for Rammus but Mumu and Sej will stay in the jungle forever. However even then jungle tanks are usually a glorified support.

All being the point of if a tank champion has more power into his or her kit then they will become support one way or another. Riot actually has a lot of trouble trying to balance tanks around with their kits and not turning them into support. In fact there was probably one point where they were probably close to say "fuck it, all tanks are supports!" It was really close around what? Season 3 maybe? Can't remember, the one where it was either support tank or anti-support tank Morgana or gg bot lane.

Issue number two: Skill Shots and Mobility Creep

Mobility Creep has always been the core issue and still is an issue to this day. It's the reason we have this Power Creep right now. What's the best way to CC that Kalista ? Lock her down? Slow her down? Really the best way is to just blow her up. Really stopping her from hopping with CC would be a smart move ... if you could land it. Most hard CCs are skill shots, and ironically the ones that are not are not on the tanks. Tanks should be the ones with the single point and click CC ability some do but most don't. Why pick a top lane Maokai which is still a good pick with point and click ... However Irelia can do it with two moves sure, but she kills her target. Or even better yet Annie even does it better. So instead of picking someone who can lock that super duper mobile target down, why not lock it down and blow it up? Hence forth Power Creep. If Mobility Creep was lessened we may not have Mr. 700 ad Jhin running around.

RalanrJun 30, 20166 votes

I hate seeing top lane tanks turned into supports.

Sahn UzalJun 30, 20163 votes

Seeing Support become Nautilus' meta role saddened me. Sion support being a thing is fine with me... for now. He still seems to have his ''true home'' in the toplane.

I actually really enjoy playing Mordekaiser Sion botlane :l

agbudarJun 29, 20167 votes

item 3075 how many years have we asked for this to have a grievous wounds effect? why is item 3110 more expensive then item 3025 ? can tanks get an tank item that gives them an active that does the following: "anyone damaging you for the next 4 seconds gets a 30% movement speed slow for 2 seconds" preferably frozen heart? since that is already a tank item to begin with.

MelledoneusJun 29, 20167 votes

I'd like there to be an MR item sort of like sunfire that slows instead of does damage. It'd have a short range, but it'd allow you to stick to squishies and would provide stats that bruisers would not care for. 25% increased base MR. 25% increased base HP.

BluePolarizerJun 29, 20167 votes

that used to be Randuins but they nerfed the slow.

OneExitJun 29, 20164 votes

There are so many problems with tanks right now that I have trouble thinking where to begin. I'll just pick a random place % HP TRUE DAMAGE. % hp is meant to crack tanks; reasonable. The counter-counter play to % hp dmg is to build armor or mr depending on the dmg type, but % HP true damage negates any potential counterplay. God maybe I'll just make a full post about it, cus there's too much to type and im fkn tired lol

MelledoneusJun 29, 20165 votes

I don't have much of an issue with %HP True damage when the champion needs time to apply it.

Which is why I freaking hate Fiora .

LankPantsJun 30, 20164 votes

Personally I have a huge problem with %HP true damage. It's basically a huge 'fuck you' to anyone building tank. It just ignores any gold you've spent on defences entirely, it doesn't matter if you've spent 10k gold trying to survive, you're just as squishy as your ADC who spent 0. I personally believe that if you invest into defences you should always live longer than if you don't.

SaltyKrackaJun 29, 20162 votes

Actually, I've got a different idea.

We've seen the rise of Tank assassins not because there's too much damage, but because too much of the power of tanks has been loaded into their itemization.

MelledoneusJun 29, 201612 votes

You do realize that tanks not only cannot utilize that power as much as those tank assassins, but are forced to use it? If I was playing and got an iceborn gauntlet, and I'm against an Ekko who got the exact same thing, Malphite is going to lose. Why? Because Ekko has mobility, consistent ways to proc the empowered auto attack, a reliable AoE stun-shield, and %HP damage to finish the fight. Malphite has slow empowered autos and two abilities with lackluster damage that don't affect Ekko's mobility much.

But people keep saying that tanks are OP and whatnot, and that their itemization "is too damaging." Well, maybe if Riot didn't nerf their tankiness so much, tanks wouldn't HAVE to build damage. Instead of focusing on utility, we get a meta where bigger numbers are better. I'm looking at you, Jhin, with your 700 AD.

RalanrJun 29, 20162 votes

This is why I don't like mages and their 800 AP builds.

MelledoneusJun 29, 20168 votes

Ahri and her stupid true damage. and his stupid burn damage. Azir and his stupid sand damage.

RalanrJun 29, 20168 votes

I can't get the sand out of my pants after fighting him.

MelledoneusJun 29, 20164 votes

I can.

Because they're filled with holes after.

SaltyKrackaJun 29, 20165 votes

Hey, you're not going to find much argument about that from me.

After all, the honest solution to my observation would be to take power out of their items and put them into their kits directly.

MelledoneusJun 29, 20164 votes

You just turned that around on me. You deserve an upvote.

I believe that's the best way to do it. Take some stats out of the items, slap it onto their scaling stats. Profit.

LankPantsJun 30, 20166 votes

Does this not inherently cause the opposite problem?

It becomes optimal for a tank who's inherently super tanky already to buy damage and ignore tankyness. This has actually already happened, the Alistar S4 worlds build relied on a core set of items including Triforce and Statik Shiv. Unbreakable Will just made him so tanky that he didn't need tank items.

Basically there's never anything stopping tanks from buying more AD or AP. You buff their base line defences up and you end up with Amumu buying item 1402 item 3116 item 3001 item 3157 item 3020 item 3135 and being unkillable while doing so.

Adding more offensive power to tanks kits has some other problems, namely that they become snowballing monsters who can win a game off of one or two kills. A lot of tanks are already snowbally, you don't want to let champs like Mumu or Sej ahead of you as it stands, improve their base damages and these champs can potentially snowball to the point of 3v1ing off of a couple of kills.

I actually don't think tank items are a big problem. They seem fairly in-line to me. I think the problem is that certain champions, mostly Ekko and Fizz have poorly designed kits and get too much mobility, utility, durability and damage without having appropriate tradeoffs. These champs are going to find a way to abuse defensive items pretty much no matter what, because they're poorly designed.

RogueWillJun 29, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Actually, I've got a different idea.

We've seen the rise of Tank assassins not because there's too much damage, but because too much of the power of tanks has been loaded into their itemization.

No...is because there is so much damage. If assasins couldn't kill their targets with base alones they would build damage to achieve that. Since they can kill their targets with base alone they can afford to build tank item and still be effective with their role.

RalanrJun 29, 20165 votes

I blame thunderlords.

RogueWillJun 29, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I blame thunderlords.

Thunderlord is a big part of it but there are a shit ton of mastery options that outweigths their defensive ones. Sorcery, Double Edge Sword, Natural Talent, Oppressor on the ferocity tree (which is supposed to be the attack based tree) which woudl be normal but then you have Assassin, merciless and precision on cunning (which is supposed to be utility based giving you a ton of extra damage) resolve is the only tree that is somewhat of a tank/defensive specialized tree but most of them are only usable by champions with considerable regeneration abilities that can scale with the % or champions that are forced to build full HP due to their scaling so assassins can go either of the other 2 trees and compensate with items for their lack of survavility. So assassins have all the damage they need from level 1 why woudl you build more damage when you have all you need from bases alone?

Blue Moon WolfJun 29, 20161 votes

If I remember correctly, before Rito decided on assassin next, Riot were deciding on 3 class to work on, which were assassins, Divers and initiation tanks (which was before they updated the sub-classes, so that one might be ~~wardens~~ vanguards).

They ended up deciding on either assassins or divers (and of course went with assassins) and the plan was to work on the other 2 afterwards. So unless they change their minds at some point, the class update schedule looks to be assassins, divers, then "initiation tanks".

TL;DR- They have plans for a class of tank, but it won't be for a while.

RalanrJun 29, 20166 votes

Vanguards.