Spear of Shojin is going to an AD assassin + riven item

Irelia Bot·May 25, 2018·30 votes·15,019 views

Most Fighters generally don't build 200+ AD but AD assassisn do.

Kha, Rengar, Zed, Talon.

Yet another item intended for fighters that ends up being better for another class.

53 Comments

k wìxMay 25, 201832 votes

**There should NEVER be items that are designed for damage output that also provide strong defensive statistics. ** It's just poor design. Can anyone prove me wrong?

remakoroMay 25, 201817 votes

item 3156 item 3139 item 3026 item 3812 item 3072 Half of AD items gives you Dmg + some kind of defensive stat or mechanic. And its clear that AD kinda busted those days. Sorry i cant prove you wrong.

Sahn UzalMay 25, 20185 votes

item 3003 item 3027 item 3116 item 3151 item 3165 item 3157 item 2065 item 3152

I too, have my issues with Shojin's spear. But don't try to pretend Defensive/Offensive items are somehow a privilge of AD champions. That really makes your argument seem less valid once you get called out on it.

GrReaper96May 25, 20189 votes

If youre gonna add health items then lets add item 3748 item 3071 item 3078 item 3022 item 3053

LordGeovanniMay 26, 20182 votes

while true that is compareing a mini car to a 18 wheeler truck as far as the damage side is concerned also everyone forgot item 3046

BakedLotionMay 26, 20183 votes

The thing is, 300 health from an ap isn't going to save you, because mages don't have hp sustain.

ADC's on the other hand have infinite (and very strong) sustain through lifesteal. That 45 MR from maw? It's going to block a HUGE chunk of a mage's burst. The ADC will survive the burst, then lifesteal back to full hp.

If a mage even gets touched, that 300 hp is just... gone.

Not to mention hp is just flat out bad without resistances. Resistances work better by themselves than hp does because there's just so much % hp damage out there.

LordGeovanniMay 26, 20181 votes

That is only compared to adcs. Tanks have the same problem where they dont have hp sustain and so do bruisers but one thing mages to have that allows them to make up for it is Range. Ranged champions shouldnt have items with the same health as defensive items and better ap than those defensive items have magic resist or armor. Resistances also lose value every Certain set of points the accumulate. aka first 100 points of armor provides X damage reduction second 100 Points of armor provides X/y damage reduction.

SpoofghoulMay 26, 20181 votes

For most of those items the defense is very generalistic as in it's health and just healht alone doesn't really do a whole lot 3k hp does not make you tanky

when i look at for example item 3812 alone makes you a lot more difficult to kill then all the health from a full mage build

Simply because it makes you die 30% slower and then it gives you the ability to sustain trhough all that damage item 3026 outright prevents death altogether and makes you about 50% more tanky towards AD The 1000 extra hp from a mage build also makes you about 50% more tanky, except it does not prevent death

AD items offer a lot more defense, often 1 of them can compare to nearly a full build of a mage in terms of defense And they can build 5 of those things

The defense on AD items is much stronger then the defense on tank items except they generally lack health but make up for it with broken sustain

Honestly all these strong defenses on AD items are not that big of a deal if they didn't offer stupid amounts of sustain too

One way to balance things is to let lifesteal only apply to how much AD you have rather then synergize with crit or other amplifiers and then separate the sustain from defense for the most part

Right now it's too easy to acquire utility, defense, sustain and damage all neatly packed into 1 item

Simply put many of the defensive AD items are a little overloaded which removes meaningful decision making when it comes to what you are going to want to build to be succesful

xJLx MCHammerMay 25, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=k wìx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wswp45t2,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-05-25T15:14:07.889+0000)

**There should NEVER be items that are designed for damage output that also provide strong defensive statistics. ** It's just poor design. Can anyone prove me wrong?

Plenty of item can do it

A lot of AP items have some sort of defensive stats (health or armor)

The issue is that an item grants defensive and offensive stats. It when it does it job too well

Assassins were designed to attack and kill off champions who are singled out (though cc other similar effects). In their kit, they have a way to get in and get out when it gets back. For example, Talon can hop over terrain, zed can trade places with his shadow, Leblanc returns back to her initial cast position..etc. some assassins have a way to clear off some kind of cc that would prevent them (rengar/nocturne) from damage their target

This new item breaks that design. It allows assassins to jump into multiple targets and take further damage that they weren’t designed to take

That’s the big issue

This item is going to be a pain to balance around every champion. Riot will end up needing too many champions

WeeningWeinersFeb 7, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wswp45t2,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-05-25T19:20:42.290+0000)

Plenty of item can do it

A lot of AP items have some sort of defensive stats (health or armor)

The issue is that an item grants defensive and offensive stats. It when it does it job too well

Assassins were designed to attack and kill off champions who are singled out (though cc other similar effects). In their kit, they have a way to get in and get out when it gets back. For example, Talon can hop over terrain, zed can trade places with his shadow, Leblanc returns back to her initial cast position..etc. some assassins have a way to clear off some kind of cc that would prevent them (rengar/nocturne) from damage their target

This new item breaks that design. It allows assassins to jump into multiple targets and take further damage that they weren’t designed to take

That’s the big issue

This item is going to be a pain to balance around every champion. Riot will end up needing too many champions

And all mage items are overtuned and busted to the nth degree HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

flibitydooMay 25, 20181 votes

CInderhulk? It's kind of the only thing keeping tanks viable in the jungle. More so than it's original form: Juggernaut enchant, which gave purely health and CDR and did nothing to improve tank jungler clear speeds.

Automated RivenMay 25, 20181 votes

I don't mind defensive actives. However I strongly dislike defensive stats. Zhonyas should not have armor, for example. And mercurial should not have MR. And hexdrinker should not exist.

Lil Homie bustaMay 25, 20182 votes

You're wrong. Fighters/Bruisers are defined by that: Strong enough to endure and to slash through enemies. It's only natural that they receive dedicated items that combine defense + damage. THE problem is when other classes start to abuse it.

Graves

By the way, new Atma's and current Sterak's are examples of good designed items. Clear drawbacks, clear strengths, not easily abused, good price value.

Risen29May 26, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lil Homie busta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wswp45t2,comment-id=00000004,timestamp=2018-05-25T23:32:51.562+0000)

You're wrong. Fighters/Bruisers are defined by that: Strong enough to endure and to slash through enemies. It's only natural that they receive dedicated items that combine defense + damage. THE problem is when other classes start to abuse it.

Let's use the official LoL terminology here for clarity's sake.

Divers are subclass of fighter who are designed to dive into an enemy team and take out someone while being able to shrug off damage long enough to get the job done.

Spear was clearly designed with them in mind.

Whereas Atmas was clearly designed with Juggernauts, a subclass of fighter, in mind. Juggernauts lack the mobility to make use of spear's passive, and juggernauts are usually defined by their ability to build tanky without losing damage because it's naturally high for them. As opposed to divers who should, in theory, probably be able to build damage while remaining tanky (that seems to be the direction spear is moving them in).

Problems? Slayers. And their two subclasses, skirmishers and assassins.

I don't feel like there is enough differentiation between a skirmisher and a diver at this point. I guess the defining aspect of a skirmisher is their higher mobility and their focus on auto attacks rather than burst. Whereas diver is tankier and with more burst. But it's possible for skirmishers to build enough AD that they can benefit from spear just as much as a diver, which would lower the class definitions and make skirmishers even more overpowered when ahead. I like the idea of giving divers an item though, because I feel like we already have a lot of items that are well suited to a skirmisher playstyle.

Assassins? Well, I already talked about that in my previous post. I don't see this being a problem for those reasons. Assassins are basically the same as divers in their class function, they just go about it a bit differently. Assassins have higher burst but less survivability. They also have more sneaky ways of getting in or out of a fight, rather than relying on raw defense and gap closers to do it. Although it's tempting to see it as a problem that the assassin role is too similar to a diver, and thus why they benefit from the item, we also have to realize that assassins suffer from the same pitfalls of a diver too - so they actually need it. But they will definitely itemize it later than divers.

French CourtesanMay 26, 20181 votes

Then why is it okay other way around?

Critmaster GarenMay 26, 20185 votes

someone made a pretty good suggestion for the spear of shojin.

remove the basic flat damage reduction entirely and only keep the part with 3 enemy champions around. this would make the item a lot worse in 1v1 situations like a lot of assassins like to seek, but just as good in situations where youre diving into the enemy team.

id also reduce the ad value of the item itself and add more health.

Emerald FangMay 26, 20182 votes

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The Yetii RiderMay 26, 20184 votes

Most fighters generally don't build 200+ AD

Yeah, because they can't survive doing that. This item will allow them to do so. You have no idea how this item will change and warp fighters' builds.

DragonSheaMay 26, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wswp45t2,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-05-26T01:10:00.737+0000)

Yeah, because they can't survive doing that. This item will allow them to do so. You have no idea how this item will change and warp fighters' builds.

Yeah they build AD + HP mainly.

Most of the item the stats priority is like this:

Divers: AD >=AS > HP > Armor >= MR > LS > Lth > CD or Lth > AD > CD > HP > Armor=MR.

Juggernaut: HP=AD > Armor>=MR > CD >LS or AS>=AD > HP > Armor>=MR > CD.

Of course there are exceptions but in general it's all that is what fighters aim for when they are building their items, HP and AD is high on their stat priority so it Spear of Shojin should scale with those stats. Tanks have enough durability that they don't need the flat Damage Reduction and Assassins/skirmishers don't get enough HP for it to work for them. In short. it should scale of AD and HP.

The Yetii RiderMay 26, 20181 votes

Right. This item plus Ravenous Hydra, Sterak's Gage, Lord Dominik's Regard and The Black Cleaver should be phenomenal.

Sun Wu RyuumokuMay 25, 20183 votes

UNIQUE Passive: Reduce damage from champion attacks and abilities by 10 plus 15% of bonus attack damage. UNIQUE Passive: When Near at least 3 enemy champions, attack to gain Dragon Heart (90s cooldown). Dragon Heart: Block 200% more damage for 6s, refreshing on takedown.

Remove one.

iPooUnicornsMay 25, 20182 votes

Assassins only have 1 slot for a defensive item really; in the next patch they will build along the lines of:

item 3147 item 3117 item 3142 item 3036 item 3071 + item 3026 / item 3156 / item 3814 / Spear of Shojin

item 1412 item 3117 item 3147 item 3142 item 3036 + item 3026 / item 3156 / item 3814 / Spear of Shojin

Also, Assassins don't want to be in the middle of 3 enemies, they want to be picking off isolated targets, so Spear of Shojin won't be as synergistic with them as you think.

Additionally Riven is a fighter, there is no issue with her building this.

TempName54846May 26, 20181 votes

i very highly doubt that assassins will be building black cleaver next patch.

IfnethMay 26, 20183 votes

Black Cleaver offers a lot of things that any melee AD caster needs.

20% CDR. That alone is a good reason to buy this time.
Up to 24% armor shred. That’s almost as much penetration as Lord Dominik’s Regards offers nowadays, and every AD on your team can use it.
Phage passives. You can basic attack your targets while running after them.
Very nice build path. Cheap items, with the option to stack Health and CDR early if the game is tough, or to build Phage if ahead.

Replacing it with Spear means you lose all of it. Only 10% CDR. No shred. No Phage passives. A BF sword in the build path. For a class that wants to snowball quickly, Spear just isn’t a good choice.

It’s a second or third item for fighters.

TempName54846May 28, 20181 votes

i wasn't implying assassins would be building spear, i'm saying they won't be building cleaver. assassins won't be going into black cleaver early and by the time they would get it the cdr matters for shit all.

IfnethMay 28, 20181 votes

Why would they not build Cleaver? It’s gold-efficient, has everything they want, and 20% CDR is amazing for any caster class at any time.

DragonSheaMay 25, 20182 votes

Shojin should scale with both AD and HP. That way Assassins wouldn't get enough damage resistance and either will pure tanks as they can't get full benefit's from it. It's a fighter item. so it should scale whose stats. 5% of you bonus AD and 0.8 of your bonus HP. That way you have to build like the proper fighter in order to get the full benefits of the item.

Also. The scaling should come from item AD and HP so no Cho, Rengar or Jhin cheesing for insane flat damage reduction from insanely high AD or HP.

YaosuoMay 26, 20182 votes

You do realize it's broken either way combined with atmas, right, whether it scales with only ad or hp AND ad? ADCs and Tanks are the best things to play in the game right now with bruisers at the bottom and mages somewhere in the middle, if shojin scaled with health AND ad, building both on, for example, Cho'gath would be busted as all hell. He will run at you full build with 15 stacks of feast, which is around 8000 health, pop gargoyle's, and have 700-800 ad because of atmas, GUESS WHAT, HE dOESN'T TAKE ANY DAMAGE EITHER BECAUSE HE HAS SPEAR OF SHOJIN THAT SCALES OFF OF THE AD THAT ATMAS GIVES AND BONUS HEALTH. OH LOOK, AND HE HAS TITANIC HYDRA WITH AN ACTIVE THAT'S DOING AROUND 1000 DAMAGE. THIS WOULD BE A GREAT ADDITION TO THE GAME.

DragonSheaMay 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You do realize it's broken either way combined with atmas, right, whether it scales with only ad or hp AND ad? ADCs and Tanks are the best things to play in the game right now with bruisers at the bottom and mages somewhere in the middle, if shojin scaled with health AND ad, building both on, for example, Cho'gath would be busted as all hell. He will run at you full build with 15 stacks of feast, which is around 8000 health, pop gargoyle's, and have 700-800 ad because of atmas, GUESS WHAT, HE dOESN'T TAKE ANY DAMAGE EITHER BECAUSE HE HAS SPEAR OF SHOJIN THAT SCALES OFF OF THE AD THAT ATMAS GIVES AND BONUS HEALTH. OH LOOK, AND HE HAS TITANIC HYDRA WITH AN ACTIVE THAT'S DOING AROUND 1000 DAMAGE. THIS WOULD BE A GREAT ADDITION TO THE GAME.

Listen I said item stats. That means, no scaling from Cho feast stacks, no scaling from Sion's W passive, no scaling from Rengar's passive, no scaling from Jhin's Passive. No AD from Gathering Storm. No HP from Grasp or Overgrowth etc.

That means that you will only gain scaling from the items themselves and you can't cheese your way out of it.

YaosuoMay 27, 20181 votes

Seems legit

RainXBladeMay 26, 20182 votes

Idk man. People like Yi and Yasuo still have the potential to build this item, even though they're autoattack-reliant champions.

XOLeagueLifeMay 26, 20182 votes

Spear of shojin + item 3812 OP?

KZ EngelMay 25, 20181 votes

pretty sure riven will still prefer other things over shojin. it offers no cdr (her most valuable stat after ad)

Tausif2002May 25, 20181 votes

She can still cap cdr at 2 items with transcendence, so this is still a very good option for 3rd item.

DragonSheaMay 25, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=KZ Engel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wswp45t2,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-05-25T21:48:12.414+0000)

pretty sure riven will still prefer other things over shojin. it offers no cdr (her most valuable stat after ad)

item 1038 + item 3067

DorkunedAurasMay 26, 20181 votes

Except for the 10% CDR it does offer?

Brain Errör 404May 26, 20181 votes

There is no better item for riven than this.

BLACK REALM GODMay 26, 20181 votes

can someone clarify the stats for shojin spear? i dont have pbe.

nevermind found something

Recipe: [B. F. Sword + Kindlegem + 900g] Total Cost: 3000g +65 Attack Damage +200 Health +10% Cooldown Reduction UNIQUE Passive: Reduce damage from champion attacks and abilities by 10 plus 15% of bonus attack damage. UNIQUE Passive: When Near at least 3 enemy champions, attack to gain Dragon Heart (90s cooldown). Dragon Heart: Block 200% more damage for 6s, refreshing on takedown.

okay lets address this item.

first off this item is in a class that should NOT have 65 attack damage. the passive alone makes this item fit for an item that should be less than or equal to 50 damage.

secondly there is no point during the purchase of this item where it screams to me "this is a fighters item" because kindlegem and bf sword are not fighter path items. this item should build from item 1006 because fighters tend to find themselves jungling and once you've bought your jungle item that's all you have left for and not every fighter champion can build or make use of item 3077 .

if cooldown reduction is wanted build it from item 3133 instead. this not only validates the cooldown reduction path, but can give fighters a reason to pick up hammer at a cheaper price than what would be a BF sword. fighters dont need pure damage. they need a variety of stats and rely more often than not on an on-hit or attack speed buff system. take that extra 200 gold from bf sword and 650 from kindlegem and spread it around by making item 3801 part of the build path and decreasing the final build cost.

item 1036 item 1006 item 1028 = way more fighter friendly.

ElewdMay 26, 20181 votes

Kindlegem is actually a pretty common item for fighters to build.... it builds into black cleaver,

BLACK REALM GODMay 26, 20181 votes

black cleaver is just op. we all know that. if it wasnt for the outrageous gold efficiency and armor penetration being required it wouldnt be touched.

5050BSMay 26, 20181 votes

Illaoi with it is fun

StrawberrycocoaMay 26, 20181 votes

This happens all the time, they tune an item for class A, and class B ends up becoming overwhelming with it by exploiting unintended uses. They need to start restricting items based on role if they want to pretend they care about preventing this from happening.

VoraciousXMay 26, 20181 votes

Are you trying to build up Riven hate or something? She's not good right now, while Irelia is really good right now, and she'll be building this item too, especially with the Sterak's changes. Riven, Irelia, maybe Fiora, maybe Camille are champions who will be building this, although AD assassins might also, but the item was built for Riven so I dunno why you're using Riven in the title like it wasn't intended for her.

Pierce The VealMay 26, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wswp45t2,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-05-25T15:07:56.062+0000)

Most Fighters generally don't build 200+ AD but AD assassisn do.

Kha, Rengar, Zed, Talon.

Yet another item intended for fighters that ends up being better for another class.

Why do we always point the fucking defensive AD item finger at AD assassins when we know the real abuse will be by ADC’s.

Like come on. These assassins need to build 3-4 pen items to do squat, the real class we need to whine about are adc’s.

Graves, Jhin, Draven. And others.