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If Ninja tabi is unhelathy for ignoring 12% of auto attack damage

Irelia Bot··245 votes·12,200 views

Then where does that leave Last Whisper, Black cleaver and Lethality which ignore or remove armor to a much much greater extent.

First we have Black cleaver which can Reduce up to 30% of total armor which is an effective team wide boost to physical damage. Then we have LW ignoring 45% of bonus armor without any conditions to apply. Last there is Lethality ignoring a flat amount of armor also requiring no conditions to apply.

If an item reducing auto attack damage by 12% is too over bearing where does that leave reducing 300 armor to 210 followed by the remaining 120 bonus armor being ignored to 66 and the reaming 90 base + 66 bonus getting farther ignored by 30?

That is 126 out of 300 renaming or 58% of armor begin ignored. There is no way around this armor pen/reduction. Once someone has it all you can hope for is CC to allow for their deletion before they can do much damage. Luckily there is an item to help counter CC and even provides leathlity...

And people are getting angry about the reaction being an item that is not countered by this large amount of armor pen/reduction due to it defending against a form of usually physical damage as a % reduction?

Ninja tabi is a symptom of a problem, Ninja Tabi is **NOT **the problem.

210 Comments

sobi99976 votes

I just don't get people moaning about ninja tabi when lethality and LW itself are so broken. Its like none of them wants the game to be balanced.

Penns11 votes

Lethality is broken, LW items got constantly buffed like 4 or 5 times since they got reworked, so I doubt they are lol.

Dracocrash5 votes

are you on a thread... not talking about fizz!?

Where is the real penns!?

Sun Wu Ryuumoku4 votes

Lethality broken ??

Low elo are so funny... how many patch late have u ??

HarrisonOwns46 votes

http://matchhistory.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-history/EUW1/218973757

Lethality abusing one-trick pony who trolls when starts feeding (all tear builds)

UkeNeverSeme8 votes

To be fair tho, wukong built all of these items before lethality.. Might have gone for deaths dance instead of one of them but.. Warrior, BC, dickblade, youmuus was always pretty core on him unless you wanted tank kong which, imo, was never as good.

BattleBalladeer15 votes

Wow that's pretty damn toxic.

Lol this is just ban material right here. He had 15.6k gold this game too. I don't understand ragers like this. He and his team had to have had a chance somewhere, but he just blew it all on boots. Could have afforded quite a large chunk of his build with all of that.

He doesn't build Tear nearly as much as he builds sheen though. There's like 6 or 7 of those and only 2 or 3 tear ones.

Ant Eater king4 votes

CALLED THE FUCK OUT!

Ahristocats34 votes

because for the 100th time, riot doesn't want defense to be relevant in late game

Irelia Bot45 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KNEVUsP8,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-03-17T07:49:46.605+0000)

because for the 100th time, riot doesn't want defense to be relevant in late game

They clearly don't even want it relevant for mid game.

Thilmer25 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KNEVUsP8,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2017-03-17T07:53:19.850+0000)

They clearly don't even want it relevant for mid game.

Or early game.

BLACK REALM GOD27 votes

or pre-game.

Erractic Eick25 votes

I, too, have stopped using condoms since joining League. #nodefence

Hello I am Bird6 votes

######Spelling defense with a c

Sraeg201311 votes

######Implying "american" is the only correct spelling of English.

Kingnewgameplus7 votes

Or post game. On patch 7.10 riot is planning to release a feature where any item that gives 36 or more resistances doesn't show up in the post game item screen and instead it gets replaced by edge of night.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku6 votes

Add to this... Damage always outscaled defense

Irelia Bot7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KNEVUsP8,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2017-03-17T12:34:05.380+0000)

Add to this... Damage always outscaled defense

Damage out scales too fast.

Paroe5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KNEVUsP8,comment-id=000600010000,timestamp=2017-03-17T15:01:48.394+0000)

Damage out scales too fast.

Indeed. Armor is not intended to protect against burst - its intended to protect from sustained damage. The problem is that ADC itemization is not sustained damage; it is sustained burst. Once you get IE, berserkers greaves, and runaans youre pretty much golden and can do whatever you want from that point onward because you have such high sustained burst.

Its like having an evelynn Q on urf but it takes time to scale.

Kalista and kindred are both marksman who are very susceptible to armor as their standard build doesnt include an IE usually. botrk and attack speed; they do tremendous sustained damage with only one source of burst.

Ralanr12 votes

You have it opposite. Armor is meant to protect against burst. The reason why ADCs are the primary tank killers is because they are the highest source of sustained damage.

Paroe3 votes

{quoted}

You have it opposite. Armor is meant to protect against burst. The reason why ADCs are the primary tank killers is because they are the highest source of sustained damage.

For armor? Thats not true at all. Armor actually works better against many small hits instead of large hits - what youre thinking of is HP. HP is what protects you against burst. Theres a reason resistances and HP are on the same items most of the time; one protects against sustained damage and one protects against burst damage.

Again, the problem lies in the fact that ADCs dont DO sustained damage. They do sustained BURST because their DPS is so high.

Ralanr6 votes

{quoted}

For armor? Thats not true at all. Armor actually works better against many small hits instead of large hits - what youre thinking of is HP. HP is what protects you against burst.

If that's the case then why do tanks counter assassins?

Resistances act as "effective health" for a damage type. So if health counters burst, so does resistances.

Theres a reason resistances and HP are on the same items most of the time; one protects against sustained damage and one protects against burst damage.

Or because they stack with each other. There's a reason why you're supposed to build health to compliment resistances rather than just flat resistances.

Again, the problem lies in the fact that ADCs dont DO sustained damage. They do sustained BURST because their DPS is so high.

That I agree with. I never liked crit because it ended up giving ADCs two damage types.

I should like these armor pen builds, but they are equally effective towards everyone. ADCs don't get any drawback in their type of damage output.

I'm starting to wonder if that's even a goal for ADCs.

mosdeadly1 votes

Rammus This champion is intended to protect aginst sustained damage. Malphite This champion is intended to protect aginst burst damage. DrMundo This champion is intended to protect aginst true damage and percentage health damage.

Too fucking bad riot doesnt like their damage dealers to get countered.

So

Rammus This champion gets countered by every adc as long as they build item 3072 this item Malphite This champion gets countered by every adc as long as they builditem 3071 item 3036 item 3033 these items DrMundo This champion gets countered by every adc and every apc as long as they build item 3165 (a commonly built item might i add) item 3123 item 3033 these items

The problem is not that tanks are useless to adcs. Its that the entire community doesnt understand what tanks do. Tanks are supposed to be good at soaking up damage and specialize in certain types of damage. They are not supposed to do damage to everything reguardless of if youre supposed to punish that classIllaoi Nasus Maokai Shyvana Zac

Ralanr1 votes

Rammus Malphite Maokai and Zac are the only tanks you listed.

And Rammus being an Anti AA tank honestly feels really dumb, but he's shit against magic so it balances out I guess.

mosdeadly1 votes

Then you dont understand what a tank is. A tank generally builds entirely tanky with maby only 1 damage item in the mix. Illaoi generally does this so does Shyvana Nasus rarely even builds a damage item and DrMundo never builds any damage.

If you really want to bullshit me with retarded specifics tell me your definition of tanks and why nasus and mundo shouldnt be qualified as tanks.

Ralanr4 votes

Tanks are teamfight focused champions that are known not only for their AoE, but their CC (often combined with AoE), initiation mechanics, and/or peel focused abilities. While tanks hurt, they are not considered damage threats alone.

Nasus is not only a terrible teamfighter, he is regarded as a damage threat because of the mechanics of his Q. He builds full durability because he doesn't really need damage at all outside of his self growing Q. Unless he builds triforce for spellblade. He also offers no teamwide initiation abilities and is a terrible peeler (say what you want about his slow, stuns are more effective).

Mundo is not a tank because his kit is incredibly selfish. He scales off of health and regeneration, offering no CC beyond a skill shot slow that doesn't last very long. He can't really initiate beyond walking, which isn't reliable initiation and can fail at starting any fight.

Shyvana has some initiation, but it's only through her. Her kit is designed around sticking close to a target and pummeling it to death. She's a damage threat that is meant to be peeled off. She gets tanky so she can survive people trying to kill her off, but she heavily uses on hit items to amp up her mixed damage auto attacks.

Illaoi is not a tank because she offers mainly damage and zone control. Sure she has interesting utility, but she has no hard CC, no way to engage, and even requires other people to hold her enemies down so she can make the best use of her ult.

Here are some links that may be helpful in explaining what a tank is and what it isn't.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

I should hope I understand what a tank is as a tank main. Sion is my go to main, but I also enjoy playing Poppy Shen Braum TahmKench Zac Amumu Shen etc.

Course there are some champions that shouldn't be tanks RekSai mainly because she's been turned into one by mistake on Riot nerfing her a particular way. Then there is Nunu who is labeled as a tank but doesn't really have the qualities of one. Will probably be reworked to better suit the role eventually.

AninLegions7774 votes

That's kinda like the point. At full build, offensive should be > Defensive not equal or the other way around. Defensive items should fall of mid-late but they currently don't. Hence the nerfs.

Ahristocats6 votes

{quoted}

. At full build, offensive should be > Defensive not equal

sure, because you said so

Ravenous Howls7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KNEVUsP8,comment-id=000600020000,timestamp=2017-03-17T14:48:53.316+0000)

sure, because you said so

Oh come now! Surely we all like being totally obliterated from 700 units away when we have 3000 health and 300 armor and MR?!

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

Mandang02 votes

It's just simple risk/reward. If defense is the safer build early (it is), then you'd better let offense win at some other point or you just have a game where everyone builds tank.

Ahristocats9 votes

defense is safer at the expense of doing less damage the problem comes when defensive champs like poppy or maokai does too much reliable damage

but in noway a tank should die in 3 seconds because of armor penetration+retarded steroid of adcs+sometimes BORK

FireDrizzle18 votes

People might take tabi less if boots of swiftness were good.

Meritas6 votes

That's the main issue as always. Save for a few item buffs/introductions all ** mandatory** items have risen through the nerfs of their competition. This is how the game has been balanced since forever.

I just wonder if there's any point in trying to guess the next "big" boots or just maybe the T2 upgrades will become so weak in the near future that we'll just start buying the cheapest set for the Movement Speed. Then what could possibly follow is MS reduction on cheaper boots or price boosting since you know, we can't have over-popular items.

junglerboy1616 votes

I don't get the Tabi hate, they're the same as they've always been

The only difference is that people are looking for a new item to crucify because they need something to be butt-hurt about.

Zenthon Prime10 votes

I love how people are complaining about the 12% auto damage reduction when that isn't even why they're picked. The reason you get Tabis is for the 30 armor, negating 2 Lethality items.

Edge of Daybreak14 votes

You are comparing a problem with multiple items being used at once to one item alone. IMO when I have to compare multiple items to any one thing to justify it's power that may show an issue with the one.

This is riot games after all if any one item is being spammed in a way they don't like usually meaning it's seen as mandatory that item almost always gets nerfed.

The problem with all of this pen is that riot doesn't want to lock items to classes because it limits build diversity and the only items that currently behave this way are the jungle items, hurricane, and Tiamat. The items by themselves are fine for their individual classes because offense should always outscale defense which is part of why last whisper has such a strong passive.

Nerfing items because of abuse cases like this also leads to other problems for example how do you change cleaver to not be mandatory for pen builds while also keeping it good for fighters? Should AD assassins be buying it? If no then what CDR options should they be going for to reach 40% cdr if they want to because as it stands your only decent options are ionian boots, black cleaver, death's dance and yoummus. Sure you can rune for it but not everyone has the runes to do so even then you trade magic resist to do so. Take away cleaver and they have no good way to hit 40% cdr.

Paroe30 votes

{quoted}

You are comparing a problem with multiple items being used at once to one item alone. IMO when I have to compare multiple items to any one thing to justify it's power that may show an issue with the one.

This is riot games after all if any one item is being spammed in a way they don't like usually meaning it's seen as mandatory that item almost always gets nerfed.

The problem with all of this pen is that riot doesn't want to lock items to classes because it limits build diversity and the only items that currently behave this way are the jungle items, hurricane, and Tiamat. The items by themselves are fine for their individual classes because offense should always outscale defense which is part of why last whisper has such a strong passive.

Nerfing items because of abuse cases like this also leads to other problems for example how do you change cleaver to not be mandatory for pen builds while also keeping it good for fighters? Should AD assassins be buying it? If no then what CDR options should they be going for to reach 40% cdr if they want to because as it stands your only decent options are ionian boots, black cleaver, death's dance and yoummus. Sure you can run for it but not everyone has the runes to do so even then you trade magic resist to do so. Take away cleaver and they have no good way to hit 40% cdr.

Ninja tabi has always been a situational buy. ALWAYS. Because of the sheer strength of lethality that situation arises MUCH more often, and therefore the item has become core. It does not need nerfs, and wasnt a "problem" until JUST RECENTLY.

Meanwhile AD can have 45% bonus armor penetration, 30% total armor reduction, and at least 60 lethality. All in one build. Oh, and did i mention 10% lifesteal? item 2140 this bad boy does a LOT of work people dont seem to give it credit for.

Edge of Daybreak5 votes

As someone bothered to post a while ago in a thread similar to this in a pro game with only one lethality user 4 champions got ninja tabi. While that is extremely anecdotal if ninja tabi goes the route of say rylais where you grab it regardless of the opponent then it will most likely be nerfed.

No matter what comp you face there is a high chance there will be an attack damage carry and a jungler who is reliant on auto attacks. Most top laners also auto attack frequently. I am not saying riot has to nerf tabi at all but I am pointing out that we have had similar cases of items being used in a way they did not favor so they were nerfed.

Rylais was a situational item as well until things changed and then it ended up being nerfed. An item not being a problem in the past has no bearing on where that item is in the present as league is constantly changing. Edge of Night wasn't a problem until riot buffed it. Then it immediately became a problem. You have to understand that even if people don't like the state of pen if riot wants to nerf tabi or nerf pen there isn't anything we as players can do about it because they have their own vision for the game.

The potion doesn't matter much considering you don't get it till full build which most games don't see anymore. You can't really give credit to something you rarely use even if it is good.

Paroe8 votes

{quoted}

As someone bothered to post a while ago in a thread similar to this in a pro game with only one lethality user 4 champions got ninja tabi. While that is extremely anecdotal if ninja tabi goes the route of say rylais where you grab it regardless of the opponent then it will most likely be nerfed.

No matter what comp you face there is a high chance there will be an attack damage carry and a jungler who is reliant on auto attacks. Most top laners are also auto attack frequently. I am not saying riot has to nerf tabi at all but I am pointing out that we have had similar cases of items being used in a way they did not favor so they were nerfed.

Rylais was a situational item as well until things changed and then it ended up being nerfed. An item not being a problem in the past has no bearing on where that item is in the present as league is constantly changing. Edge of Night wasn't a problem until riot buffed it. Then it immediately became a problem. You have to understand that even if people don't like the state of pen if riot wants to nerf tabi or nerf pen there isn't anything we as players can do about it because they have their own vision for the game.

The potion doesn't matter much considering you don't get it till full build which most games don't see anymore. You can't really give credit to something you rarely use even if it is good.0

Let me clear something up.

  1. What game was that?
  2. Im pretty damn sure the ones who bought tabi were building tanky. 3)Pro teams are centered around the ADC. The ADC is the one doing the damage. The ADC is the one most effected by ninja tabi. The ADC IS THE PROBLEM.
  3. You do realize rylais only became core because literally all the other AP options were severely nerfed in the amount of AP they gave? Rylais was one of four 100AP items. FOUR. Theres now three 100AP options. And only two of them are viable on most champions.

And the potion doesnt matter?! Its 25AD and 10% physical damage to health. That is nothing to scoff at, and if you come to a point in the game where you say "I need lifesteal" but dont want to devote the slot to a vamp scepter, elixir of wrath is THE BEST item to temporarily fill that niche. Its a problem with the players that they cant drop 500 gold - which you will have at the point youd want lifesteal - for a temporary buff.

Irelia Bot9 votes

12% vs 30% or 45% or up over 50 flat.

Does that simplify it for you?

Edge of Daybreak5 votes

The difference now becomes price once you discuss individual items. Tabi is 1100 gold. Black cleaver is 3000. If tabi compared to my 3000 gold item I would have great issue with that. Last whisper is 1300 while it's final form is 2700. I think 45% for 1300 is a little much IMO. Ignoring runes if you take the mastery for lethality + all 3 items you get 51 lethality and it cost 9250 gold because the lethality is unique. Yes you get other stats but If I am looking for pen that's the price.

Irelia Bot9 votes

And then why can we not have a 3000 gold 30% physical damage reduction item?

And it is 1300 for LW which is 45% bonus armor penetration which is easily comparable in price.

Paroe6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KNEVUsP8,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-17T06:31:07.662+0000)

And then why can we not have a 3000 gold 30% physical damage reduction item?

And it is 1300 for LW which is 45% bonus armor penetration which is easily comparable in price.

/) ADC BIAS (\ "Its okay because ADCs are meant to do damage" (But lets completely ignore that the purpose of the marksman is actually to seige and take objectives, and crit was added because marksman bitched so hard that they "did no damage", but crit turned out to be so strong that dodge needed to be implemented and crit was kept as the lesser of two evils.)

VoraciousX10 votes

I was expecting item 3046 item 3812 to be mentioned lol.

Paroe12 votes

{quoted}

I was expecting item 3046 item 3812 to be mentioned lol.

A graves with item 3046 item 3812 item 3072 item 3065 item 3047 item 3156 is damn near unkillable ;-;

TotalJerk1 votes

Graves with item 3715 item 3046= duel anyone.

Kingnewgameplus5 votes

What happens if a graves with item 3715 item 3046 fights another graves with item 3715 item 3046 assuming both players are of the same skill level,runes/masteries, and level? Can the world handle something like this? Is the end near?

Derfel8 votes

lol if tabi is a problem whoever made item 3046 and red smite should be fired

agbudar8 votes

24 lethality from runes 6 from masteries 45 from items.item 3147 item 3814 item 3142 and meanwhile item 3035

lol at this item 3047 item 3035 item 3147 item 3814 item 3142. congratz your 5 item build which is 11.6 k vs item 3047 item 3068 item 3742 item 3143 item 3110 item 3075 which is 14.8 gold and 380 bonus armor

from which 246 armor will be flat out removed without any condition. thats roughly 4k gold in stats removed even though you are ahead. if the enemy were to build item 3071 on top of it all he would remove even more, creating an even bigger armor/gold deficiency on the tank. vs a rammus lvl 18 (base armor of 104) who is not in W form black cleaver alone would remove another 70 armor.

thats not including abilities which can remove more armor.

but clearly ninja tabi's is the issue.

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