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What Exactly is the Goal of Maokai's Update?

The Yetii Rider··4 votes·2,777 views

Alright, so the Maokai rework has been all over the place and I really want to know what Riot's intended use for him is after everything is said and done.

Let's get the first thing out of the way. The main point of the rework was to open up top lane in competitive play.

Basically, Maokai's old ultimate and his old style of pushing lane just made him really really strong to lane against and he was just better than most other tanks in top lane, especially in a 5v5 situation.

Simply removing his ultimate would solve this problem, and that has been done, so the rest of the changes to his kit have to fit some new goal for Maokai.

So let's take a look at what changed about Maokai.

Number 1 - Maokai's % health damage was removed from Twisted Advance and put onto Sapling Toss instead. What does this accomplish? It heavily nerfs Maokai's early damage if he maxes W first (aka: jungle Maokai). It encourages Maokai to max Sapling Toss first, and go somewhere where there are a lot of bushes to control the enemy (aka: AP support Maokai).

Number 2 - Maokai's Sap Magic has a lower cooldown and scales with maximum health. This would seem to be a way for Maokai to self-sustain in fights and would seem to act as a replacement for the tankiness he lost with his new ultimate. In order to utilize this new passive, we need to build tanky, we need to use W a lot (which means we need to max it first or second) and we need enough armor and MR that we live long enough to burst heal every few seconds.

Number 3 - Changes to Arcane~~~~Bramble~~~~Fuck you Arcane sounds way cooler Arcane Smash...basically nothing. It has a slightly shorter cast time, knocks back closer targets more, and has a significantly shorter slow. No one cared about pre-rework Talon's E slow. It was there as a damage amplification from Talon's terrible passive. Maokai doesn't want a tiny slow, he wants CC.

Alright, so 7.9 hit and nature took its course. Maokai's lack of tankiness from his ultimate made initiating with him much more dangerous. Combine that with a much weaker mid game because a single durability item makes you less durable, and a generally worse ganking experience because maxing W now is pretty bad and maxing Saplings doesn't really help in a gank since you can only get one off. All in all, Maokai moved down to bot lane where he could make use of his new niche, and used it well.

Then we had changes in 7.10 and on the PBE now. Let's take a look.

Passive - (on live) Cast time slightly down. (On PBE) Cooldown drops to 20 seconds at level 11 instead of level 15. Healing changed from [10-130 + (4.5-10.5% max hp )] to [10-70 + (5-13.1% max hp)]

So the healing is slightly better and it comes up more often, as long as you build tank. Tank Maokai's success is directly tied to A) how powerful his ganks are (which generally requires maxing Twisted Advance) and B) how powerful the tank items are (and they've all been nerfed).

I've said it before and I'll say it again: item 3143 is a bad item. It has been completely destroyed, there is no point in the game where it is good to build it. If you rush it you sink 2900 gold into not health and die to the enemy mid laner. If you build it last you sink 2900 gold into armor and the enemy you're so worried about critting you has Last Whisper.

I do not see a build path for Maokai that allows him to make use of this passive without dying quickly.

Q - Mana cost changed to 50 at all ranks, cooldown scales down to 1 second lower at max rank, knockback distance slightly increased.

There are zero changes to Twisted Advance for both 7.10 and the PBE, so with the changes to E that we're going to get to, it looks like Riot is trying to push Maokai to max Q. Let's discuss that, shall we?

Q is not strong enough to support Maokai in the jungle at the moment. The changes simply lower the CD very slightly in the mid game if he maxes it first, but Q is not an ability you want to use multiple times in a single gank. Let me make this abundantly clear here, you need to max W as jungle Maokai. W is your gap closer. W is your CC. W is how you gank, period. You are going to max W as jungle Maokai, especially now that they frontloaded the % health damage from E. Changing Q is not going to help jungle Maokai in the slightest.

Now for top lane Maokai. It's just not going to work. No matter how you change his kit (and you've made it worse for laning with the E changes), top lane is full of duelists. You will not find success with the large majority of tanks in the top lane unless their first item can compete with the enemy duelist's first item. And Sunfire Cape is absolute trash now. If you want to see tanks in the top lane, they need an item they can rush. I'm sorry. Sunfire gives them the ability to farm better, and also die to Black Cleaver or Hydra or whatever the enemy builds. Randuin's gives them the ability to die sooner than Sunfire. Frozen Heart gives them the ability to stay in lane slightly longer before dying. There is no armor item that stands alone against lane harass now, so top lane tanks are just done. Okay? Okay.

E changes - (Live) Base damage nerfed hard early, feels less hard at max rank. Mana cost swells up as you max it. % Health damage front loaded. (PBE) - Base damage nerfed even more, feels harsh at max rank. AP scaling cut in half. Duration for saplings gutted.

Even as a support, you have very few reasons to max E now. You gain 100 base damage over the additional ranks, and in exchange you use up 20 extra mana per cast. E is probably the skill you max last on every version of Maokai now.

So what is Riot's vision for Maokai? Is Maokai supposed to stay as a bush-centric support? In that case, Riot needs to give him some other reward for maxing Sapling Toss besides crazy amounts of damage. Is Maokai supposed to be a tanky ganking support jungler? In that case, Riot needs to give Maokai some power back to his W so his early game is stronger, and also he becomes more of a team fighting threat when he maxes W. Is Maokai supposed to be a dueling top laner? In that case, he needs the itemization to back it up.

Let's hear it, Meddler. You've taken Maokai out of competitive. What are you going to do with him now?

14 Comments

GrandpaTheGreat3 votes

I think the point wasn't to nerf/buff him, but rather make him more situational and distinct. To quote the patch notes of the rework

While most tanks bring specific strengths to the table, Maokai does everything at once. So, when the Twisted Treant is at- or above-par with his classmates, he quickly becomes the go-to pick. At the same time, no specific strategy or team comp depends on Maokai’s particular set of skills to succeed. When he’s weaker than other tanks on average, he vanishes off the face of the earth.

TL:DR they wanted to make the decision to pick Maokai over other tanks based on how much he fits into a situation beyond just being generally better/worse than the other tanks, which is why they added all the weird caveats to his kit.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

Which they failed to accomplish and in fact made worse since he now has a generic aoe CC ult just like a bunch of other tanks.

GrandpaTheGreat1 votes

And before he was a generic Tank who kind of did a bit of everything you might want from a tank reliably. His old ultimate was just damage reduction (Often just buffing himself) and a burst of damage at the end, you pretty much just used it whenever you happened to be fighting for a general boost. But the new ult forces you to think about some new things like how much the enemy can body block, or whether you can reliably catch people in it. Even if it's still cc, the extra factors make it so you actually have situations where it is usefulness varies rather than just buffing himself to be more durable.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

But the new ultimate just does exactly the same thing as the other aoe CC ults. The input may be interesting but the output accomplishes the same thing as other AOE CC ults do, it has done nothing to influence your reason for picking him over someone else unless his ult is numerically better than the other aoe CC ults.

Yes the old ult was damage reduction and mostly just used for himself but if they really wanted to make him picked for a unique reason then they should have made his ult based on using it to help enhance the defense of allies since that's an ult on a jungle tank that we don't have.

They could have made his ult like how it originally was where it could be placed down on a spot. Make it global or semi global and give it a longer cooldown, it could be his way of helping his allies survive while far away. Something of that nature would have been far more interesting and unique than the new ult as it is.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

{quoted}

I think the point wasn't to nerf/buff him, but rather make him more situational and distinct. To quote the patch notes of the rework

TL:DR they wanted to make the decision to pick Maokai over other tanks based on how much he fits into a situation beyond just being generally better/worse than the other tanks, which is why they added all the weird caveats to his kit.

Right, but as I stated in the OP, the specific changes they've made to him since the rework have left him with nowhere to go. He has no place to succeed now.

Variks the Loyal2 votes

The jungle is a great avenue for him right now.

That's specifically why they came up with empowered saplings, to better his jungle clear.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Empowered Saplings only hit red/blue and raptors, wolves, Gromp and Krugs are nowhere near any brushes.

Variks the Loyal2 votes

Krugs are right beside a bush.

fumiefan1 votes

Yeah I'm kind of confused as well. He was reworked because he was too good at what he did.

Isn't that THE POINT of making champs? To be good at what they do?

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Yes, but his old ultimate was just too strong. It offered a lot of resistance to champions who were not balanced around having that much extra resistance (especially when he could throw it in one area instead of centering it around himself).

That's the same reason Riot deleted old Aegis/Locket/Runic Bulwark. It's okay to absorb damage for your allies, but when you make your allies tankier than they should be, it causes all kinds of headaches. I'm honestly surprised Windspeaker's Blessing has lasted as long as it has (though its resistances were hard nerfed).

50000000000000001 votes

Number 1: I think Riot doesn't like E max route, and made the %HP damage to not scale with ranks. Only the base damage on E increases with ranks now. Number 2: Doesn't any spell order help use his passive? Q max seems like the optimal choice for waveclear, AoE damage, and AoE knockup/slow. It is also the lowest CD ability, and the most reliable way to charge up his passive. W also helps, but I think it's okay to not max it first. Number 3: Q change seems fairly minor, I think. Maybe the CC duration is nerfed to balance out the extra CC from his ultimate?

I'm not sure if W max is actually optimal on jungle Maokai, but I assume you play more jungle Maokai than I do, so please correct me if I'm wrong (I like him as a support, although as a tank support primarily and not a mage support). Doesn't Q max help you clear better, which helps you with HP/mana for ganks? Points in W give you extra 0.1 second of CC and 25 damage (CD ignored because you'll use it once per gank), whereas points in Q give you 45 more damage and 0.75s shorter cooldown, which means you may be able to use it twice (which is 0.25s longer CC). W seems more like a one point wonder than something to max immediately, at least during laning phase.

From my understanding, a Maokai gank works like throwing E on the enemy's escape path, Q if possible, and then W, and autoattack until Q comes back up. Is that not how you gank as Maokai? If not please do correct me. I was under the impression that W is the skill to max last, since it provides so little compared to other skills.

Putting points into his E gives extra duration on saplings as well (if placed in bushes). If the damage nerf on E goes through (and it probably will), I think I'd still max E second for top, and first for support (since I don't need to use Q to waveclear). Maybe mana cost is too harsh to max E first though, in which case I'll probably max it second.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

The changes on the PBE remove the increased duration for saplings by rank. After the next patch, saplings will have a static 30 second duration, +2.5 seconds per 100 bonus Health Maokai builds.

You won't have enough time to auto attack until Q comes back up, usually. Q has a 7.25 second cooldown at rank 2, which is level 4 if you max it first. You have to get to your target, which means you're already burning your W, then you Q. They will either be dead or have escaped before 7 seconds have passed.

You max W because you need the CD reduced for team fights. In team fights (which will start taking place around level 9) you will be making great use of that additional CD reduction, and the extra CC is more important than anything else. Maxing Q is terrible, you will use your gap closer far less often and probably lose many fights because of it.

W provides mobility, that's what's most important. You would never max it last, you want to jump from person to person. You certainly want to do that by level 13, I don't know why you think a reduced CD on your only mobility effect is worth less than a bit of extra damage or a longer duration ward.

50000000000000001 votes

Oh wow, I missed the HP scaling on E. Looks like I'll be maxing E last from now on.

When I play as support, I max Q first so I can have low CD CC (5 seconds without CDR) to help peel. Longer duration on E is helpful for scouting and zone control, which can help secure escape paths or cut off enemies. Maybe I'll try maxing W second, but 70 second ward is an extremely strong vision control tool. Saplings have 11 second cooldown at all ranks, and 70 second duration instead of 30 second duration means you can have up to 6 saplings out instead of 2 without CDR. With 40%, that goes up to 10 saplings instead of 4. It makes flanking and rotation that much more difficult for the enemy team. I think having that much vision is worth more than getting 0.4 seconds longer snare that I'll be using like once, maybe twice in a teamfight.

But then duration doesn't scale with rank anymore, so Q>W>E from now I guess.

That said, isn't Q max still better for jungling? I'd guess that having faster/healthier clear is more important than that extra 0.1s snare. W is a single target, flat damage spell now, so it's going to be pretty much useless for clearing.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

I said this already, but the reason you max W on Maokai jungle isn't because it's more efficient to gank with, it's because jungling as a tank is more about setting yourself up for team fights later. You want that delicious delicious 9 second cooldown (5.4 seconds with max CDR) on your W so you can move around team fights with ease.

You are correct, however, that maxing W results in a weaker clear. That is why I said in the OP that if Riot is intending for Maokai to be a jungler they need to put his % health damage back onto his W, because he needs to max it regardless so it's better to have the max be in a skill that also helps his clearing.

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