The Trinity of Botlane and What it Means for Supports

The Yetii Rider··129 votes·8,478 views

Ever since the ADC support lane came into existence, there was an understanding about how supporting worked, both from a design and from a player standpoint.

The idea was that there were three main roles supports played in-lane. Sustain, All-In, and Poke.

Sustain supports were the classic supports who had the ability to heal others based on the iconic white mage style supporting from various RPGs. Examples include Janna, Sona, and Nami. However, it is of note that this playstyle, once established, became extremely unpopular with Riot, who refused to release another champion that could heal others beyond 2011 until Nami, and even then they tied her damage to her heal and gave it an insane mana cost. Bard is the only other champion from 2012 on to have a heal in his kit.

Poke supports were the other type of "classic" supports who had the ability to deal spikes of magic damage from a distance in order to push the lane and punish out of position carries, disrupt farm, and prevent ganks with the cc often tied to their poke. Examples include Lulu, Nunu, and Kayle.

All-in supports originally weren't that well supported, but have since become popular with the creation of Thresh, Leona, and Braum. They are usually melee supports that play aggressively and chain cc in order to take out squishy targets and help their junglers successfully gank. Unlike sustain supports, who are generally masters of disengage, and poke supports, who are masters of poking and sieging, all-in supports were designed to be powerful engagers, a role that once was the duty of the jungler or the top laner.

So, this was the standard. Sustain countered Poke, Poke countered All-In, and All-In countered Sustain. It was a system that worked pretty well, and then Riot started messing with it.

As part of their ongoing project (The Team Builder system) Riot made some changes to support itemization in Season 3. They introduced items that gave supports much more gold than before, as well as scalings to help fit this gold. This did two things for the supports in the game:

  1. It gave AP scalings to poke and sustain supports, as well as reducing their bases. This resulted in poke and sustain supports heading mid lane in order to farm as much as possible and use their new scalings to oppress the enemy, as their peel designed for carries worked just as well for themselves, and their lower base utility and damage meant they had a weaker early game in a duo lane to help.

  2. It gave All-In supports both more gold to buy tank items (already cheaper than offensive items for balance reasons) as well as new-found utility for building this survivability.

Because these sustain and poke supports went mid lane, Riot had to go in and nerf the champions themselves. Lulu and Zyra both received hard nerfs to their utility (including a questionable nerf to Lulu's shield and Pix duration which hurt support Lulu more than mid Lulu, who leveled Glitterlance first). Soraka and Sona were both reworked, having their base power lowered immensely and losing a lot of their old identity while also reducing their survivability (and thus their ability to function in a solo lane) substantially.

The imbalance between the buff to All-In supports and the nerf to Poke supports led to a hole in bot lane that ended up being filled by mages. Annie and Morgana became the new poke supports, hard counters to All-In supports whom Riot could not easily nerf without affecting their power in the mid lane. Eventually, Riot did nerf Annie (mostly) out of bot lane while buffing her mid lane power, and gave Morgana some love taps that did not really affect her play rate in any sizable way, because she was still so necessary to deal with Thresh, Blitzcrank, and Leona.

To Riot's credit, Thresh, Blitzcrank, Leona and Braum have all received nerfs in order to make them easier to deal with, with Riot specifically hitting Leona's base health regen and stating plainly that the proper counter to her was poking her out of lane. However, with poke supports practically removed from bot lane this has become a non-issue. Leona is easier to kill in team fights now, sure, but in lane she remains a problem. A problem that the jungler now has to deal with because supports lack the power to do so themselves.

Then came the ADC itemization overhaul. The nerfing of Bloodthirster and the power boost of Infinity Edge, as well as the changes to how mana regeneration works (which nerfed Tear of the Goddess, pretty much the only item ADCs could use to keep their mana pools somewhat afloat) kicked ratio ADCs out of lane and made auto-attack ADCs the new gods.

Ratio ADCs like Lucian, Varus, Ezreal and Caitlyn dealt with all-in supports quite well, due to their longer range, poke and self-peel. However, the nerfs to itemizations saw all their win rates drop and caused them to leave bot lane in favor of stronger auto attack champions like Jinx, Tristana and Vayne (and then Tristana got reworked). Admittedly, since then Graves has seen a resurgence as the premier ratio ADC, but this did not happen quickly enough to prevent the change that this itemization shift brought about in supports.

Poke supports depend on ratio carries to help them with their game, which is "stop the enemy carry from CSing and win a war of attrition". Meanwhile, All-In supports love Auto Attack carries, because their extended CC chains allow for long, one-sided trades, which Auto Attack carries deal much more sustained damage with. Thus, the itemization changes for ADCs in 4.10 were the nail in the coffin for poke supports, and we've seen nothing but All-In supports (and Nami and Morgana) ever since.

TLDR Sustain counters Poke, Poke counters All-In, All-In counters Sustain, but a lot of changes Riot has made has left Poke and Sustain supports unplayable, leading to the current state of bot lane where All-In supports reign supreme.

144 Comments

DJ Hatsune Miku18 votes

As someone who plays a fairly good Soraka and a mean Sona... I couldn't agree more with the points. Trying to play these squishy poke/sustain champs is a nightmare if the opponent knows what they're doing. I pretty much can't pick either of my go to supports these days because if I play Sona into Thresh or Leo it's an auto lose.

It shouldn't exactly happen, given poke should counter all in, but Sona's so unbelievably squishy that if I get hit by a hook or Leo E I can get gibbed before I even recover from the stun. Nerfing Sona's effective range to be inside of their danger zones is pretty much one of the reasons why Sona isn't seen that often. And before anyone says Sona's Q is still the same range, if you try playing Sona and never getting an empowered auto off after Q you'd know how little poke damage she actually does by just Qing. That plus the nerfed power chord damage means it's honestly not even worth the risk which makes me wonder what's the point of playing her.

Ultimately it comes down to Riot wanting to build a flashy game. Soraka isn't flashy, neither is Janna, or Sona. The only mage supports that are flashy are people like Zyra, Annie, and the like which can bring big plays to the table. The thing is, these champs are being ripped from mid laners and stuffed into bot lane because the champs that were designed for that role are being pushed aside.

I'm aware this is Riot's game and they should be able to make whatever game they want, but their philosophy in what champs get to be good and what shouldn't be good is very skewed. When people say, "Aw man I can't kill this Soraka/Vayne this is boring." it's mostly because they got countered and wanted to play Ez/Sona to run a poke comp. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if they don't like Soraka or think Sona is oppressively strong at poking or Janna is way too good at protecting people, these champs exist for a reason. Sona and Soraka are epitomes of their role and their class archetype in terms of botlane. Leona is the queen of all-in as well, which means we can use them as a rock/paper/scissor analogy.

Sona beats Leo, Leo beats Soraka, Soraka beats Sona. This is balance. This is good game design. This is fun because it makes people have to think about their picks/bans and not just saying "Well I'll play Thresh cause he doesn't lose to anyone." because that isn't fun. Players should be rewarded for making good picks and playing well instead of having Riot tell them they're wrong for enjoying a style of champion.

Recently I've felt like Riot has been telling me my favorite champs are wrong to enjoy and that's just very sad. I've played League less and less and it's no surprise that Sona has gotten worse and worse as time has gone on. My pool of champs is ones like Lux, Morg, Sona, and Soraka. With nerfs to sustain, reworks, mana regen, and mages in general it makes me feel like the kind of game I am playing and the game I think I'm playing are different.

Hatless Casual4 votes

Couldn't agree more, I've actually been wondering why the current meta is only tanks or mid lane casters as supports. It really annoys me that I can average a solid B+ on the new rating with Sona , Soraka , Karma and Lulu and honestly all of them are great utility supports with harass and something to give your carry for extra sustain and all I get is yelled at for not picking Lustboy's flavor of the week.

Miku Lv9913 votes

We need better poke supports. They could at least buff the ones that aren't very good anywhere currently, like Karma. We need more supports that are good against Braum/Thresh/Leona/Blitz. They are kinda too good bot lane for not having very many good counters. Especially with the Annie range nerf on the pbe from 625 all the way down to 575, the poke in bot lane is getting reduces even further.

The Yetii Rider6 votes

I agree. If Riot wants to move mages out of bot lane they need to provide an alternative counter to Thresh and Leona, rather than just continuously hitting everyone with the nerf bat. Karma, Lulu, Zilean, they all have issues with their early game that need to be addressed if we want bot lane to stop stagnating.

Gavran6 votes

I don't know what you're talking about... Karma demolishes Leona and Morgana (who is not a poke support, she's an all in support with a safer defensive pattern than Leona (but not better than Blitz/Thresh.)

And I'm not good at Karma, her base damage is just that high that she can poke them out of lane easily. Xerath also does this okay though struggles late game, and Zyra's damage combined with the ability to disengage makes her extremely effective too. Honestly Leona is the only CC support I'd call oppressive, and it's not even her CC it's her damage. She's too tanky for the amount of damage her passive and W provide.

The Loveless4 votes

Do NOT buff Karma. Don't even adjust her. Her RQ at level 1 is vicious. The rest of her kit is sufficient to do it all. I like that's she good in all lanes.

Orangesilk4 votes

A poke support must be able to: Disengage from an all-in support and deal decent damage with low mana consumption, in order to be able to boot the all-in supports from lane.

This however not only applies to all-in supports, but for all-in characters as a whole, this is how Lulu, having such a great kit against all-ins ended up in the midlane (during the assassin meta) and in the toplane countering all ins, same goes for Karma.

The problem with this kind of supports is that they are ineffective if they can't counter all-ins, but oppressive if they CAN counter all-ins while solo-laning.

My personal stance on it is that solo laners should stop whining for nerfs, put on the grownup pants and learn to deal with harass by either counterpicking or counterplaying, so we can have both solo lane supports (who are sacrificing quite a lot of lategame damage and power for their strong early and general utility) and decent poke supports in bot.

This comes down to the fact that the bruiser main and assassin main population in this game are hurting the botlane diversity by a LOT.

swordpas12 votes
BluePolarizer11 votes

Zyra was actually an extremely bursty mid-laner before they gutted her damage, range and base stats, but not her utility.

I think the whole concept of tanky support is stupid. If you want a tanky support, you should have to take a top laner or jungler down bot, like Nautilus support for instance. There shouldn't be dedicated tank supports as a class, because to balance a tank support, they have to be extremely tanky with a lower gold income than tops or junglers and thus have way higher base tankiness.

I also don't like how utility/heal supports got gutted. There is no reason why the support class even exists - give Sona/Janna/Soraka/Lulu/Nami their old scalings back and let the players decide who goes mid and who goes support. Someone has to support and someone has to mid in each game, so it'll be cool to see Annie/Janna picked in the same game and depending on the enemy comp, have Annie mid/Janna support or Annie support/Janna mid.

Wolvenlight2 votes

I love tanky supports. To each their own I guess.

I think the main issue is that some supports just have better kits than others. Tanky support Leona does great. Tanky support Taric does... something.

My thing is that I love playing tanks, but for a while their they weren't viable. Now they're almost too viable, so I can see why stun tanks like Braum, Thresh, Leona and so on get annoying for most people.

LifeCyclesTWA9 votes

Upvoted

Baron of Bread9 votes

One of the big reasons the All-In supports are strong is this thing right here: item 3302. Helping someone deal with an issue they have is fine and all, but this might help a little to much. Yeah, you can poke that heal away right quick, but the fact that it is there helping them is making the problem worse. The other items reward you for doing your job (item 3303 makes poke better and gives you gold for it, item 3301 gives you the mana to heal and rewards you for keeping your ADC in lane), but Relic Shield is just a crutch for the All-In supports. It can also provide the most gold of the items and doesn't punish you for walking out of lane to ward.

Basically I think it would help for this to get tuned down a bit.

LegendaryLemur6 votes

I think item 3303 is going to give you more gold than item 3302 in many cases (especially if Morgana ) but i have to agree with you. Maybe tone down the spellthief application on DoTs along with toning down relic shield heals? That would seem to nerf morgana, thresh, leona, braum but then there's still annie to worry about.

ProfDrDeath2 votes

Currently, item 3302 and item 3303 are the two most common early support items.

Relic is the better defensive option, due to its HP and heal, while Spellthief is better suited for offensive purposes with its bonus damage, AP and Manaregen.

Gold-gain wise, Spellthief is stronger than Relic, but only if you can make use of the charges on CD: In 3 mins, Relic can give you 2 Cannons + 1 melee = 40 + 41 + 20 = 101 gold. Spellthief, on the other hand, can give you 72 + 90 = 162 gold in 3 minutes. That's 160% of Relic.

Both calculations are assuming optimal use, which can be quite difficult for Spellthief if your champion lacks the necessary kit.

Baron of Bread3 votes

Ok, I must have been thinking about release Relic. Thanks for the correction!

Thorns Rising7 votes

[deleted]

The Yetii Rider14 votes

Ah you're correct. Still, only 2 champions in four years proves my point just as well as one.

Destínum1 votes

That's actually half of the supports released during that timeframe.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

{quoted}

That's actually half of the supports released during that timeframe.

Lulu, Nami, Thresh, Braum, Bard, Zyra.

Basic math indicates you are incorrect. It's 1/3rd of the supports released during that time frame. (And don't tell me that Zyra is a mage. She's not.)

ChaoticPinecone5 votes

zyra is a mage who got shafted into being a support. what other support does nothing but damage, CC, and zone control?

BluePolarizer4 votes

Zyra was originally a bursty mid-ranged mage. I mean, her kit is pretty much a mid laner's kit: 2 AOE CC, 4 high damage nukes with decent scaling (equal to Brand on Q/E, sustained damage on W) and 2 waveclear spells on low CD. That is very different from the typical support's low damage, low scaling, bad at waveclear kit.

swordpas28 votes

You seen the mana cost + CD VS it's healing effectiveness ?

Wumachine5 votes

when you spawn in quickly rush down bot, drop 3 shrines and back to base to get back mana, 3 max shrines can heal an adc from 10% to 100%

League of Potato2 votes

You obviously didn't read OP's entire post. Actually you probably stopped after that sentence because they did mention Bard literally in the following sentence.

Cosnirak7 votes

It's all SO much more complex than that. That's not to say everything you mentioned is wrong, as much of it is correct. And of course a complete and 100% correct explanation would be far too long anyways. One important factor though that I think you should have mentioned is MANA.

You only need one full rotation of abilities worth of mana on an all-in support to do your thing (when you do it right and it works). Poke and sustain require a lot more spells being cast to be effective. Ever since 5.0 mana has been in far shorter supply (in the early game) for many champions, especially many poke oriented champions. There are no flat mana regen items (like d-ring) that are worthwhile for supports early on, furthering the issue. This is only one more piece in the overall puzzle but I feel it's one that's largely gone unnoticed. How can you poke someone out of lane when you run out of mana long before they run out of health?

The Yetii Rider3 votes

You are largely correct in your point, but seeing as most of the poke supports were already being pushed out of lane by nerfs and ADC itemization I didn't feel the need to mention it.

Cosnirak4 votes

Some of the poke supports are also sustain supports (Soraka/Sona/Nami). Many supports don't really fit into any of those categories (many of the 'all-in' supports can be played as simply defenders of their carry, Bard is a mix of them all).

The point is that the whole thing is VERY complex. If you want to help change things focus on what needs to be changed right now to make it better. An overly long explanation of how we got here isn't that useful to Riot. Try to keep it mostly to what needs changing and suggestions of what those changes could be. I'm with ya though, I'd love to feel good about playing Soraka or Nami right now.

The Yetii Rider3 votes

My post has nothing to do with calling for change. I never once (in the main post) asked for Riot to change something. I simply summarized how we went from such a diverse and interesting bot lane in S3 to here, and noted all the different various factors that led up to it. It's a complex problem with no simple solution.

Cosnirak1 votes

That's my point. Posts like this don't seem very useful to me without offering a solution (even if it's just a vague direction to take things). Riot knows how it happened. Others either don't care, don't agree, or at best also have no good solutions. Why bother?

The Yetii Rider3 votes

{quoted}

That's my point. Posts like this don't seem very useful to me without offering a solution (even if it's just a vague direction to take things). Riot knows how it happened. Others either don't care, don't agree, or at best also have no good solutions. Why bother?

Plenty of people care. You can scroll through the other comments and find things like "interesting read". This is a forum, we're here to discuss gameplay and balance, and that's what I'm doing.

BastionKross7 votes

Here's the thing: Riot hates champions that can heal other champions. Yes, they just recently made Bard, but he's a laughingstock in quite a few ways, even after multiple buffs. Sona and Soraka reworks may have made them less frustrating to play against, but it also made them very difficult to play as. Taric remains a joke. Kayle took some hefty nerfs. Alistar was actually pretty strong for a while there... top lane. Nami is actually in a pretty okay position, but I'm willing to bet that's because her heal is also tied to her poke. The mana regen nerfs hurt these healers even more. But the real nail in the coffin was that stupid utility scaling they did back in preseason 4, making utility supports (a lot of which were also sustain supports) have their CC and buffs scale off of AP. Normally that wouldn't be a bad idea, but the scaling was horrible and didn't actually provide much more benefit than before unless you have 500+ AP sitting around. On a support. Luckily Riot seems to have realized what a horrible idea that was and has since quietly removed a lot of the utility scaling.

Why does Riot hate healers? Because as we all know, they love them some #LC$BigPlay$. Sustain supports are generally the exact opposite of that, often turning the lane into a farmfest that can be outright boring to watch. Can you imagine Tristana Soraka vs Vayne Sona? The casters would have literally nothing to say about the lane as a whole until a jungler comes to gank. However, there are a lot of players who like being the healer. Riot appears to have given them the finger since healers are not flashy enough.

Mandang05 votes

Have all of my upvotes! (I only have one...)

I could argue who fits in what category, but it doesn't change the point - that Riot's change to support itemization and utility ratios have warped the balance of power within the support class to the point that we just see Thresh/Leona/Morg season in and season out.

Remlap12235 votes

It is a sad state of affairs when off-meta picks are the keys to unhinging the support trifecta that is going on right now (Leona, Morgana, and Thresh.) We're now seeing stuff like Nautilus support, and the all-in support role is continued to be the one that is favored the most by both Riot, and the metagame.

A long time ago, while messing around in TeamBuilder, I decided to play support GP for shits and giggles. I main GP, so I already had a general idea how I would build him as a support (tanky poke support with Targon's brace), and what I discovered basically hard countered EVERYTHING META.


Morgana, who was known for her obnoxious snare more than anything, all of a sudden had a man with a magnificent mustache who's name wasn't Braum, walking in front of her snares and tanking them, and proceeding to cleanse them, completely relegating Morgana as an anti-magic damage shield support, which was kind of a moot point against an ADC, and Gangplank, who leveled his Q and E first for supportin' purposes, and basically said "use your shield, IDGAF" and bullying Morgana and her carry out of the lane.

Leona has been a terror bot lane since the balance favoring All-In supports for quite some time, and then all of a sudden Leona's #1 factor for playing her, her burst and diving potential, just came under threat. Pretty much any champion that didn't have poke or an escape plan was Leona's bitch, and with the advent of Morgana meta, her #1 solution to that was to simply ban Morgana. And then I took GP bot instead. And it did virtually the same thing. Leona isn't very discriminate about her targets, she'll pretty much nuke anyone that comes in her tether range. And I used that to my advantage. Launching to me, Leona proceeds to stun me, and have her carry try to take me down. And I proceed to ignore that stun and start wailing on her. Not "poke", full on chasing her down with auto attacks and Q's. All of a sudden, Leona lost all of her sticking power, and was left to her W, but the combined assault of two attack damage champions caused the flash, exahust, and heal to go off. Leona's only form of "supporting" her carry was invalidated by one ability. If she tried to go after the carry instead, I'd just keep chasing her, and my carry would kite her to death. If the enemy carry went in, I'd turn my attention to them, who now would have a support with all of their abilities on cooldown, and no means to peel or tank for them.

And finally, Thresh. Oh man, I feel like a horrible person for this, but GP bot lane makes Thresh players cry. I remember the first time the enemy Thresh typed in all chat wondering how I completely invalidated his Q. And that's pretty much how support GP works against Thresh. Once level 2 comes, you sit in front of your carry, you tank all of his hooks and cure them away, and you relegate Thresh as a poke support with awful range. Thresh's pitiful starting armor made it HILARIOUSLY easy to poke him out of lane, and if he actually was able to go in on the carry somehow, I'd just start wailing on him. If he pulled the carry closer, I'd turn my attention to them instead. If he tossed out the lantern for the jungler, I'd brunt the impact or absorb their CC.

And then I hit level 6, and start supporting other lanes with my ultimate, instantly turning what would have been lost trades into winning ones, and racking up assists like I was UberDanger playing full AD Soraka with SOTO (actually got fed in lane once and rushed SOTO, got twenty stacks by endgame, and my carry STILL had more kills than me).


Teal Deer, sometimes solving balance problems that Riot isn't addressing requires you to get creative. If that means taking an Olaf'd top laner bot lane as an AD support to hard counter the trifecta that has a stranglehold down there, than so be it.

NorthernDruid5 votes

(Best reason to not write forum posts in the middle of the night? posts get ridonkulously long)

One of the other factors which contributes to the strength of all-in supports, and ADCs who work well with them, is that an all-in at the right time can get you maybe a double kill if you're lucky, and is likely to drive the opponent to recall or play very defensively if succesful without a kill.

So when Champions who are strong in an all-in are at the top of the meta, they become even more popular, because the benefits of getting a kill come more easily with their strength in lane.

In lane, you're always gonna be looking to kill or push out your opponents, the way to do this, is by dealing enough damage to them that they're very susceptible to ganks, while not getting taken so low yourselves. The best way to do this, is by dealing as much of the damage you need to deal, in one go. Because this leaves less time for sustain champions to undo your hard work, and for their jungler to come in and mess up your plans.

In other words, an all in.

Champions with strong poke tend to push their lane, making them susceptible to ganks, and champions tailored around sustain often have long cooldowns and other factors (like max% health costs or long charge timers) which makes them reliant on getting to do their sustain over time (this is one of the strengths of the new Soraka btw, burst healing makes her somewhat of an exception to this general rule).

In the end, an effective all-in support alongside a carry which also deals well with an all-in has a stronger chance of getting a kill or two without outside assistance.

And especially post-6 some of the strong all-in champions has some really decent disengage as well with various parts of their kit.

It's a multifaceted problem which can only really be solved by making the other kins of supports better at their niches (sustain, disengage, poke).


In part, the gold items can contribute a lot to the situation here I think.

One of the things which helps make all-in supports like Leona and Thresh so strong, is the fact that the relic shield line gives you on-demand sustain (out of the box you have two on-demand two champion 40hp heals in relic shield, if you have both stacks up, 80 extra hp on both you and your carry can be a powerful thing if used right), that you can trigger in a fight if you really need to, and which provides some decent sustain over time (Targon's Brace is roughly equivalent to 8hp/5 for both you and your carry if you proc a charge every time you can. 8hp/5 is quite a lot).

So the gold item tanky-all-in champions use is already giving them more tank, more self-sustain, and covers up their weakness to poke lanes very nicely.

For poke supports: Spellthief's edge

Spellthief's edge emphasises a poke support's strengths, periodic damage onto an enemy, and covers up one of their weaknesses, mana regen.

Spellthief's itself gives 25% base mana regen while Frostfang gives 50%.

Most champions who take spellthief's and plan on sticking with it hit ~10 base mana regen at lvl 7-8. Meaning that at around that point Frostfang is worth about 5 mana per 5.

The damage on spellthief's is also something to consider however, and it is the only support gold item to give an offensive stats, with it's Unique Passive Tribute dealing 10/15 extra damage on more or less any damage procc whether it be an autoattack or a spell. And it actually offering low amounts of AP.

Spellthief's is alos considered the best of the three at generating gold.

For sustain/disengage supports: Ancient coin

offers... base mana regen, and a unique passive which offers low amounts of health upon adjacent enemy minion death.

Upon upgrading to Nomad's Medallion, you also get some health regen added into the mix along with 10 flat movespeed, one of the only sources of flat movement speed outside boots (the only?)

In lane this is generally the weakest of the bunch, unless you really need the extra health regen and are ranged so proccing Relic shield is harder.

More than that, the real strength of this item line is in it's further build path, which is the strongest of the bunch including a Forbidden Idol, the cheapest source of CDR in the game as well as an easy 50% base mana regen, something utility supports will quickly find themselves in strong need of.

Some of the champions who traditionally might want to build this also have higher base mana regen values (Soraka Sona Janna Nami all have a base of 9 at lvl 1) and so benefit more from the high mana regen offered from the full item.

The other strength of this item is the incredibly versatile active AoE movespeed buff which Talisman of Ascension offers.

What was my point again <.< ...........

Oh yeah..

Anyway, the relic shield line offers proportionately way more to the champions who can use it well than the other items offer their users. In particular, the coin line sits as a peculiar middle ground between sustain and casting, with relic shield (and especially Targon's brace) offering way better sustain for your lane, while spellthief's edge/Frostfang helps out your poke and gives you AP while offering just as good mana regen (but no health sustain).

I don't think the issue I have after this observation is with relic shield being too good in offering the tanky all-inners both the tanky stats they need to survive and the extra duo sustain to cover up their weaknesses. It's that the other items (in particular the coin line) doesn't offer enough similar coverage of their playstyle weaknesses.

Spellthief's edge/Frostfang doesn't help you capitalize on your poke to eventually make a kill, it just makes each individual chunk of damage stronger. And builds gold easily on the right champions.

Ancient Coin/Nomad's Talisman doesn't offer you any extra disengage or aid to your survivability utilities (heals/shields/cc/etc.) when being jumped upon.

While Relic Shield/Targon's Brace offers you an excelent cover for your weakness in dealing with heavy poke.

Currently, the disparity is subtle, but there's no wonder that when tanky all-in champions are good they're very on top.

Because their playstyle offers a higher reward potential, and the items supporting their playstyle does it better than the other playstyles' items.

I think that's it?'


No wait, there's more!

IIRC, the ranking on the gold generation of items puts spellthiefs at the top and relic shield/targons at the bottom.

Which ends up meaning little in the long run, since the main kind of items relic shield user may want are defensive items, which are by nature cheaper than the offensive items a poke/damage support with spellthief's might want...

That should be it...

The Bíg Ticket4 votes

Its poke, engage, disengage.

Engage beats poke disengage beats engage poke beats disengage.

LegendaryLemur1 votes

Who would you consider the poke supports? Morgana would fit in as disengage along with janna and nami right?

The Bíg Ticket3 votes

Sona is a poke support aswell as the likes of Brand, Velkoz. Nami can do a little bit of everything which is why she is kinda popular but her main strength in lane is poke (and sustain). Janna is the classic disengage support, Morgana works best as disengage but she can also start fights and poke semi-efficiently.

LegendaryLemur2 votes

Very interesting and well thought out post although i am a bit confused about a couple details.

  1. Janna is a sustain support? How? I think of her as a poke/peel support, using her E to allow her adc to win poking trades
  2. Annie isn't seen in botlane anymore? She seems to still show up a lot in the pro games i watch.

Thanks for the thought provoking post.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

Janna's Howling Gale is ineffective as a repeated method of poking due to its high mans cost. Peeling and shielding from a distance are both methods of sustain. Also Monsoon fully channeled heals more than any other skill in the game except low health Wish.

The part about Annie being nerfed out of lane was correct in the chronological place in the post (between the nerds she received and Patch 4.10). You are correct that she's seen a recent rise in popularity, mostly due to Morgana's rising ban rate.

LegendaryLemur3 votes

{quoted}

Janna's Howling Gale is ineffective as a repeated method of poking due to its high mans cost. Peeling and shielding from a distance are both methods of sustain. Also Monsoon fully channeled heals more than any other skill in the game except low health Wish.

Don't want to pester you too much about this, but i'm still not really convinced. I wasn't suggesting using her Q as poke. And using monsoon as sustain is a bit far fetched to me, its too important just to use it to heal up your adc.

You're saying that all-in counters sustain and sustain counters poke, so Janna should be bad vs all-in and good vs poke you're saying?

But if someone tries to all-in Janna she knocks them up with Q , shields the adc and uses her W to slow. If she's able she can even flash monsoon them under her own tower or something really nasty. I see that working out for Janna's team but i might be wrong.

Versus poke is Janna strong? I'm not sure, i mean she can shield the poke if she has her timing down, but she has no reliable way to heal the adc or herself back up if the poke lands.

swordpas2 votes

All-In carries reign supreme

I wish that was the case, you don't see Yasuo & Tryndamere dominate the meta. It's the strongest all-in supports that plague this game Leona Thresh Morgana

Panwar2 votes

Support itemization did not send supports mid-lane(supports do not buy support items in mid lane). Lulu who was the the biggest offender of a support played mid lane was before the support itemization and her problems were separate from it. Also Zyra was a mid laner before she was a support.

The Yetii Rider9 votes

Support itemization didn't. The changes that came with it (adding AP scalings to utility) did.

Lulu wasn't a major mid laner before they added a minimum to her slow that scaled with AP (eventually got so oppressive that Riot had to remove that entirely).

Volt Cruelerz2 votes

I'm surprised I never realized only two recent healers were released. Dang...

Anyways, I feel like what you're really asking for here is a buff to caster ADCs, specifically their mana. Perhaps the best response is to buff Essence Reaver. Alternatively, they could nerf the face of the mountain item line. That early game heal is what makes me hate enemy Leona players when I'm Vel'koz.

Joe Dredd2 votes

Does anyone want Lulu or Soraka to be like they used to be? Only the people that played them. And Zyra was originally a mid lol.

Space Bum2 votes

Hu? Lulu and Zyra counter the hell out of all in.... Leona? Pick lulu. Thresh? Pick Zyra. Bram? Pick either. GG. Lulu is the number 1 all in Nope! In the game that is why she is great vs assassin's and it translates to any all in.

ChaoticPinecone2 votes

i dont think its the bot lane itemization that have All-In supports supreme.

think about this - all in supports are generally just tanks - leona, nautilus, thresh, braum. Blitz is a funny one since he isnt as inherently tanky, but has his passive. in this tank meta with longer teamfights, the tank supports have much more to offer with being able to engage, peel, and frontline. you wont be as tanky as a full-tank sion, but youre pretty good with your inherent tankiness, face of the mountian, frozen heart, and locket.

poke supports start to tickle in the midgame unless fed, and generally provide little after their lockdown CC is spent. they cant bodyblock spells. their heals are weak.

and Ratio ADCs have the same problem - the autoattackers just output so much more damage in longer teamfights at the expense of less burst.

i still have good sucess poking out Leona/Naut/Thres in lane with Zyra. but CC and a little tankiness is more useful in this meta than CC and a little damage from Zyra.

That said, i still got to Gold playing support Zyra, so she isnt completely unplayable. Plus, with a liandries and rylais, (which you can afford if ahead) you often end with some of the most damage on the team.

Troy2426212 votes

Reminds me of something. The Jungle is supposed to have Carry, Control and Pressure styles, but they've effectively made counterjungling barely worth the risk, and thanks to takes, Pressure is phasing out Carry. Not as bad as support but we're heading there.

I've thought Poke bot lanes have been weak for quite a while now, to tell the truth. It's a shame, really. Leona/Thresh gets boring as Hell.

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