"Violence is a Key Aspect to Warwick's Theme, and We Want to See How Far We Can Push That"

The Yetii Rider··110 votes·5,327 views

Yes, Riot. That's exactly right. Rengar has already delivered on all the aspects you could want out of a feral hunter type champion. He feels like a skilled, predatory beast and his leap and roar are very animalistic. If you don't find something to really differentiate Warwick from Rengar, this rework is going to fall flat both gameplay-wise and thematically.

So yes, thinking about Warwick, I definitely want to see more of a violent character. The Hyena skin really encompasses what I like most about Warwick. His auto attacks are wild and all over the place, and his running on all fours is perfect to the idea of a werewolf lost in the hunt.

Violence is key, but you should also emphasize that Warwick has no control.

Perhaps this wasn't part of Warwick's original design, but Rengar didn't exist when Warwick came out. Rengar is cold, calculated, and vicious. He has the strength of an animal but the intelligence of a man. Warwick needs to differentiate that by being unable to cling to what's left of his humanity. Playing Wawrick should feel wild and dangerous. The player him/herself should be afraid of the monster they are controlling.

The game is 13+, I think, so you should be able to show some blood, right? Even though you cleaned it off a lot of splash arts, I think this is the champion that needs it the most. You have Darius bleeding his enemies out after all. Warwick needs something similar. Maybe when he has three stacks on an enemy that enemy becomes bloody and scarred for the duration of the passive.

I remember the last time Warwick was up for a rework you were planning to keep the AP ratio on his Q because there was concern that making him AD focused would create similar drain-tank problems to Aatrox. That's understandable, but maybe a better solution is to simply restrict his healing to jungle monsters altogether? You could make Warwick have a higher damage potential if he simply didn't have the extra longevity in his kit against champions, which would make him a much better ganker since he wouldn't be so reliant on his teammates for damage.

And then we get to his W. The skill that is lauded by pro players as providing the most free gold worth of stats to a team in the game. This skill definitely should be scrapped entirely and replaced with something more interesting and impactful. In the previous Warwick rework, we saw that it was a point blank AOE fear similar to Volibear's Majestic Roar except that it could affect champions.

I think this idea could work. To make it better differentiated from Volibear and Rengar, you would need an ear-piercing, haunting howl to accompany it, rather than a roar or a scream. Something that shows a man pining for his true form, something wistful and lonely but also bloodthirsty.

Warwick's proposed rework E was a dash from one location to another and then back again that could go over walls. It was tuned so that when he was at the other point, for a split second, he could W and Smite, so that he could basically contest objectives over walls. This was made significantly easier by his E passive also being changed to show monsters below 50% health as well, so even red and blue buffs could be contested by the Feral Hunter.

This change would make Warwick into an insane control jungler that takes more skill than Nunu or Skarner. I approve of it whole-heartedly.

And finally, his ultimate. This is the skill that really has the most potential for violence. I urge Riot to cast aside the instinct that this is a kid's game and really embrace what video games have become from a graphics perspective. Every claw slash, every rip and tear, should have a serious pain-inducing sound effect, and his claws should swing in broad, unpredictable arcs that show him not slashing, but pulling the skin off his target. Like a beast desperate to get at the enemy's heart.

119 Comments

Dububby73 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9e9wwANE,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-09-01T01:51:18.060+0000)

Violence is key, but you should also emphasize that Warwick has no control.

make Warwick into an insane control jungler

???

underscores22225 votes

Different types of control The first use is in reference to his personality and physical/mental state. He is running off instinct - feral.

The second use is in terms of game mechanics - he controls the jungle by having an interesting way to see and contest the jungle monsters, specifically in reference to invading the enemy jungle.

Keti8 votes

Thatsthejoke.png

Mhihnj1 votes

Warwick I am insane and i am in control

Saianna4 votes

I guess you haven't heard of Joker, right?

Mistress Madoka4 votes

Patch 7.2: Warwick now moves automatically. activate his abilities to make him do more stuff

redfeenix20 votes

Great fucking post. I agree with most things except:

That's understandable, but maybe a better solution is to simply restrict his healing to jungle monsters altogether?

No dont shoehorn champions into roles. Riot should make the champions, and the players should decide where to play them.

Other than that I agree whole heartedly with what you've said. Warwick and Rengar are so similar as bestial hunters. I really do hope they step into the wild animal motif way more.

Great post. Have my upvote.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

{quoted}

Great fucking post. I agree with most things except:

No dont shoehorn champions into roles. Riot should make the champions, and the players should decide where to play them.

If you read the State of Gameplay Update post where the title quote comes from, the Rioter says "We like Warwick as a champion that essentially teaches new players how to jungle".

They plan to keep him simple, and likely he will be stuck in one role. That's fine.

I mean, you can't exactly argue that Riot hasn't shoe-horned champions into one role with some of their recent reworks. Skarner's passive only works when he's jungling.

MonkeyMadness2 votes

If you read the State of Gameplay Update post where the title quote comes from, the Rioter says "We like Warwick as a champion that essentially teaches new players how to jungle".

I get that you need easy and simple champs for this exact purpose (though Riot has been phasing out "easy" champs for the past couple years at least with these reworks), but if you try to make a person learn how to jungle on a healing-intensive champ, they are absolutely fucked on any other champ they play. I learned on nocturne, and when I made the switch to udyr (who was pretty god tier at the time) I couldn't gank for shit. That's because noc has absolutely free ganks with his ult and a targeted fear (this was back when fear caused random movement, so it was a hell of a lot better). The same thing will happen if you make some learn the jungle on warwick. They will get used to how easy it is to heal up and have absolutely no concept of how to conserve hp in the jungle, kite the camps, etc. Keep warwick "simple" but don't let him be boring (and yes, he's fkin boring as hell right now).

Serika Zero2 votes

Kalista -> forced into adc by riot design Kindred -> forced into jungle by riot design Morde rework -> forced into adc by riot design (the double exp part, now almost entirely removed) Fiora -> forced into top lane due the fact that most of her damage is in her passive (old Fiora could still jungle quite well) Skarner rework -> forced into jungle due to "shrines"

Riot been forcing champions in roles for quite a while now.

MonkeyMadness4 votes

Ya? And that's fine. If riot wants to design a champ for a specific role that's totally fine, that's not what I was saying at all. My issue is that if they design a champion designed to be very low skill and very noob friendly with a low skill ceiling, you will end up with a VERY boring champ that no one outside of bronze will really play. That is terrible for game health, and the reason why riot has been systematically been phasing these kinds of champs out with the latest rounds of reworks.

It Hertz When IP2 votes

Warwick isn't there to teach that. He's there for new junglers to learn how to manage objectives, when/why to gank, how to apply pressure to lanes, etc. The built in healing on his passive means that new junglers don't ALSO have to learn about HP management, camp kiting, etc at the same time as everything else. He's a stepping stone; yeah, WW currently practically jungles for you, but his only initiation is by ult or Flash, almost his entire damage output is countered by Blind and reduced by armor, and his attacks are loudly telegraphed, with no CC to lock targets down outside of his ult.

He has a very low skill floor, but also a low ceiling. Which is how he should stay.

Keti14 votes

Please don't actually give him the goofy looking hyena run.

Veltox13 votes

but keep it for hyena doe.

67chrome13 votes

"Violence is a Key Aspect to Warwick's Theme, and We Want to See How Far We Can Push That"

Considering werewolves started as a way to explain serial-killers and murderers, I approve of this.

Cursed beasts are most interesting when they're, well, cursed. The danger of tipping into a violent, uncontrollable rage is one of the most interesting parts of werewolf stories, and adding that flavor to Warwick's aesthetic could make him a very captivating champion.

DrugsForRobots8 votes

This might get lost in the comments, but I really want to see Warwick's Blood Scent remade into a detection ability. I imagine activating it will cause him to smell for a 'scent trail' (like an orange-red version of Singed's Poison Trail) that gives him bonus MS and / or AS while 'on' it. Maybe they can combine his Blood Scent and Howl into the same ability, letting him reactivate it to howl, slowing nearby enemies, but slowing his prey if he's on their trail regardless of distance.

Why a detection effect? Because Warwick is a hunter and it would behoove him to have such an effect. It would enhance is theme and flavor, allow for some neat gameplay, give him a powerful tool to control of the jungle, while also being decent utility in general and a counter to stealth! Crucially, because it's detection it would not grant sight of his target (thus no targetibility), only information as to their recent position. Where there enemies nearby? Someone hiding in that bush? Someone trying to juke through brush? Smell their fear!

I've always thought it strange that Shaco can go invis to deny Warwick his Blood Scent reveal. That said, if it wasn't a reveal, but instead a detection effect, it would probably be good for the vision game as a whole. Riot, please.

Abyssphere5 votes

You base your post far too strongly on a concept that is very old at this point. This rework will not have anything in common with the old proposed one. Abilities like his Q probably won't exist in any form anymore.

rtbf2256182415 votes

I think you're pushing uncontrollable ridiculously difficult to grasp theme with his kit too far. The skill floor has to stay the same and someone who has many variables in their kit isn't usable in low elo at all.

Also, your last suggestion is completely useless in my opinion. Sion's reworked lines are questionably bad enough, and ripping people to shreds visually isn't approvable in this game by many policies because it would get too disturbing for many reasons such as seeing female/childlike champions literally torn apart or your favorite champion like that,

it's far too disturbing simply because of the level of detail itself already. At best, a bleeding effect would suffice or some kind of a finishing move similar to Darius' ultimate with the blood splash thing. I think by "violence" they meant constant basic attack range-melee interaction rather than some visual gore overhaul comprised with an all over the place kit that you're thinking.

If you want gore or whatever, there are plenty other games for that. This is still PG 12 unfortunately.

EDIT:

really embrace what video games have become from a graphics perspective.

What does that even mean? You think League has bad graphics or something?

arghilost4 votes

It will be a sad day when warwick is reworked.

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=arghilost I'm one of the premier warwick players on the server, and I've seen what riot does to reworked champions. I seldom play the champs after riot is done with them.

Off the top of my head, gangplank, fiora, garen, graves, kog, malzahar, mordekaiser, poppy, and vlad are champs that I basically never play now due to Riot's pitiful reworks.

In most cases, they do not keep the core of what made the champion, and completely make it into something new, which sucks.

They especially seem to botch simple champ reworks, which warwick is. I'm almost certain they'll change him into some generic bruiser with 2 dashes and a 3/4 hit passive, defeating the purpose of what warwick is supposed to be.

if they can somehow maintain his niche as a champ that can both pull off one shots/catch stragglers and also have interesting utility in his team atk speed and blood scent, then I will be VERY surprised based on their track record.

I'm not holding my breath, but I would give serious props to them if they actually keep a champ's interesting niche for once instead of making him generic and me moving on from him.

Gregor Gysi9 votes

Gangplank is way better (despite OP), Fiora is way better (remember that old ultimate?), Garen is the same wtf, Graves is okay I guess, Kog sucks alright, Malz is okay, Mordekaiser is okay now, Poppy is way better and Vlad is better.

Oh and Sion is awesome. And every reworked champ is healthier than before except for Kog (if we forget about old AP Kog that was lame).

The Yetii Rider4 votes

Fiora's ultimate was bullshit but her ability to deflect anything is just mind numbingly frustrating.

arghilost3 votes

It's all subjective, you're welcome to your opinion. I just personally dont find any of those reworks good, I used to play all of those champs and I no longer touch any of them.

Gangplanks new kit is unbalancable and has frustrating mechanics like the triple barrel combo that can't be countered against. His new W rewards you keeping it at level 1, whereas old gangplank could max any of his 3 skills depending on the situation. If you were behind on old gangplank, you could still help with your ult and E buff.

I find the new gangplank inherently worse in many ways for the game. That's just one explanation but I have clear reasons for all of the ones I named.

Gregor Gysi2 votes

{quoted}

It's all subjective, you're welcome to your opinion. I just personally dont find any of those reworks good, I used to play all of those champs and I no longer touch any of them.

Well, whether you like a champion or not is surely subjective, but whether they are healthy or not can be held to objective standards.

{quoted}

Gangplanks new kit is unbalancable and has frustrating mechanics like the triple barrel combo that can't be countered against. His new W rewards you keeping it at level 1, whereas old gangplank could max any of his 3 skills depending on the situation. If you were behind on old gangplank, you could still help with your ult and E buff.

Why would it be unbalancable? Gangplank was OP until this very patch but things are looking pretty good right now. He might even be balanced already..

Also, the triple barrel combo is decently telegraphed and hard to pull off - and it's quite interesting gameplaywise to be wary of bushes near a GP. And I don't quite understand why it would be necessary to be able to max all skills. It's interesting but definetely not mandatory for a good champ, in fact most champs have a skill they max the last in pretty much every game. Plus, we shouldn't forget how toxic AP Gangplank used to be. That amount of sustain is just unhealthy and not interesting to play against, the Ult damage was random and old GP brought far less utility to his team.

arghilost2 votes

Old gangplank was just way more fun for me. I gave the new gangplank a try but it's just boring and not the same. Playing some silly minigame the entire time is not my idea of fun.

He isn't balancable at high level play because they are very good at farming and doing the combos. Once he reaches the certain threshold he just stops all sieges and can nearly one shot everyone in the game due to his new stupid barrels.

Gregor Gysi2 votes

{quoted}

Old gangplank was just way more fun for me. I gave the new gangplank a try but it's just boring and not the same. Playing some silly minigame the entire time is not my idea of fun.

He isn't balancable at high level play because they are very good at farming and doing the combos. Once he reaches the certain threshold he just stops all sieges and can nearly one shot everyone in the game due to his new stupid barrels.

Ah well, that is very subjective I guess. Overall it's very clear that the new GP is more popular than the old one.

Quite the opposite is the case. Old GP sucked at high level play because it wasn't balancable for high level play - simply because the old kit was very simple and easy to play. Current Gangplank does actually have a complex kit and is not that easy to play and thus can be allowed for competetive play.

arghilost2 votes

more popular because he is a strong/op pick now, no shit lol

which is exactly what I dislike, they took a champion that was simple and made it needlessly complex, to where now he is just a champion that dominates at high elo still but has been nerfed so many times worse players can barely play him.

My fear is that they do the same to warwick and make him "complex" just for the hell of it, even though no warwick players are asking for that.

Gregor Gysi2 votes

{quoted}

more popular because he is a strong/op pick now, no shit lol

7% playrate and 49% winrate seems okay to me. I guess he could use a very small touch to push him into viable instead of strong tier in competetive, but he is fine for soloQ dynQ.

which is exactly what I dislike, they took a champion that was simple and made it needlessly complex, to where now he is just a champion that dominates at high elo still but has been nerfed so many times worse players can barely play him.

The champ was perceived as boring by basically everyone but 1% of the playerbase. And this would make him unbalancable for low elo - which is fine. There are many champions who excel at high elo and GP is one of them.

My fear is that they do the same to warwick and make him "complex" just for the hell of it, even though no warwick players are asking for that.

We do currently have a post on the hot page that is asking for exactly that.

arghilost3 votes

are we going to disregard that he's been an almost perma ban since last worlds? alrighty then.

Uh that post isn't by a warwick player nor is it supported by actual warwick players. Nice try though.

PB4UAME2 votes

Actually, for a long time old GP was one of the premier jungles, and was played in the highest level of competitive play at pick/ban status for quite a while.

Melledoneus1 votes

You forget that Shen was turned into a bruiser who relies on mechanics that are completely reliant on your opponent being melee and stupid, that are still getting nerfed anyway, so...

Gregor Gysi1 votes

What? Melee? Why? And Shen is a top tier pick in LCS so I guess you just called the pro players stupid, nice.

Melledoneus1 votes

Shen players require a lot more skill and precision than other players to beat their opponents in lane. Shen is mostly picked because he has great global presence, and the other reason is his CC. Even if his laning phase is as garbage as it is now, he would still be a top tier pick. He has the lowest stats of any tank in the game, including the lowest natural scaling armor and lower scaling HP than squishy mage supports like Sona.

I don't know why pro players don't do this, but a null-magic mantle would completely win them trades against Shen if he's even giving them trouble. And yet Shen's getting nerfed while we have stupid crap like Yasuo top's 59% win rate in the meta.

Gregor Gysi1 votes

Yeah, Shen is trash. With a 100% P/B in EU playoffs and a 60% winrate and 60% P/B and 57% winrate in NA playoffs. Geez, he is stronger than Gnar in competetive and Gnar is quite insane atm (btw I got Gnar mastery lvl 7 so no bias here). He performed insanely well in competetive and nerfs are thus mandatory. Honestly, you just can't argue with that.

Yeah, explain those stupid pro players how this game works. And how does Yasuo even relate to all this? And where do you get your (wrong) statistics? Leagueofgraphs says Yasuo top has a 53% winrate on toplane in Gold+ and the winrate decreases the higher it gets. Championgg shows 55% winrate for Yasuo top. And now keep in mind that Yasuo is bugged currently, so what exactly is your point? How does a soloQ stomper even relate to a competetive stomper? Those are 2 completely different reasons to nerf a champ. And Yasuo is getting fixed + most likely nerfed aswell.

Melledoneus1 votes

I hope you realize that pro play and normal play are two completely different universes. Hence why Rek'sai keeps getting nerfed when she's underpowered in normal play, while Shen keeps getting his laning phase gutted because his map presence is useful in pro play and a meta that heavily rewards protecting damage carries. At no point did I say that Shen was bad in pro play, I was referring to normal play where people like you and I play the game. He had a sub-50% win rate, and it's only going to drop even further until Riot finally nerfs the one problem they have with his kit, then leave the other nerfs, just like they have done in the past.

As for Yasuo, the win rate on him keeps fluctuating rapidly, which is NOT a good sign for any champion. It's due in part mainly to how many people play him daily, and that changes per day. The bug makes Yasuo incredibly strong all around, so at no point is "SoloQ stomper" a proper term to assign to him. It is comparable to release Diana, where people have no way to counter his power with the bug and suffer just for being within reach of Yasuo's mobility, tankiness, and damage all packed into a single champion and his share of bruiser build nonsense. My problem was that Riot didn't bother nerfing Yasuo even after all the time he has been strong, but decided to gut Shen's already weak laning phase because he happens to work well in the meta. I don't see Shen top being a dominant pick because of his strong laning phase or his snowball potential. He's simply somebody with great map presence, which is partly why Rek'sai is still a popular pro pick despite the nerfs.

Yeah, explain those stupid pro players how this game works.

Also, please stop insulting our professional players. They work hard to win every year.

Gregor Gysi1 votes

Of course I realize that pro play and normal play are different hence:

{quoted}

How does a soloQ stomper even relate to a competetive stomper? Those are 2 completely different reasons to nerf a champ.

And Shen needs to be nerfed to an outstanding performance in competetive play. Whether he is strong or not in soloQ doesn't matter.

The winrate of Yasuo didn't fluctuate until the bug occured. It needs to be fixed and that's it. And yes, soloQ stomper is a proper term because he is not a regular pick in competetive play and his popularity is only to be seen in - guess what - soloQ. And saying that Shen "happens to work well in the meta" is a huge understatement, he was 100% P/B in EU LCS and still had a great winrate in those games in which teams thought they could counter him. He is very much dominant.

You somehow had the idea that you could teach the pros how to play against Shen..

Melledoneus1 votes

{quoted}

Of course I realize that pro play and normal play are different hence:

And Shen needs to be nerfed to an outstanding performance in competetive play. Whether he is strong or not in soloQ doesn't matter.

Yes, it does. The vast 99.98% of the community play on a non-professional level. When Shen has an already rapidly dropping win rate and he gets nerfed, pretty soon we're going to see no play from him. For goodness' sake, people expected to see buffs because of how weak his laning phase is and how underpowered his ultimate shield is for a 2 minute cooldown. Not to say his ultimate isn't valuable, it is. However, it takes just a critical hit or two to destroy Shen's shield, which is what carries pump out once they hit a few items.

The winrate of Yasuo didn't fluctuate until the bug occured. It needs to be fixed and that's it. And yes, soloQ stomper is a proper term because he is not a regular pick in competetive play and his popularity is only to be seen in - guess what - soloQ. And saying that Shen "happens to work well in the meta" is a huge understatement, he was 100% P/B in EU LCS and still had a great winrate in those games in which teams thought they could counter him. He is very much dominant.

Yasuo's win rate spiked to 61% and other ridiculous numbers in Platinum in your region before the bug fix, back when people were using his bruiser build. Now he also gets extra damage due to a bug, and he has even less counterplay to his already unhealthy kit and people still deny how strong he is. "SoloQ Stompers" are defined as champions who are good at punishing mistakes and take high levels of knowledge about the game to beat. Yasuo is an all-around stomper, as he practically outscales every top laner in the game with his bruiser build and game-breaking bug. The only reason Yasuo isn't played in LCS is because the damage carry meta dictates that teams take engage, disengage, burst, and utility to support a scaling ADC. Yasuo provides minimal engage/disengage power besides his wind wall, and teams at the pro level are afraid to bring in such a volatile pick because they would rather pick a stale meta pick they know works rather than something as wild-card as Yasuo in this meta. On the other hand, Shen is a champion who has always been good at snowballing bot lane because of his global presence, but that's almost all he has. His laning phase is extremely punishable and easily counterable, and his jungle clear isn't good enough to compete with professional pick junglers like Gragas or Rek'sai.

You somehow had the idea that you could teach the pros how to play against Shen..

Please quote where I said any such thing, and if it was my comment about null-magic mantle, let me clear that up for you before you go straw-manning this discussion:

I don't know why pro players don't do this, but a null-magic mantle would completely win them trades against Shen if he's even giving them trouble.

Note how I say that null-magic mantle would win them TRADES IF Shen is giving them trouble. Post level 6, Shen becomes a roamer, which gives his lane opponent the options of following him with TP or pushing his tower and creating map pressure in his absence. This means they won't be trading much with Shen anyway, and I realize that they have their item priorities higher than that. So instead of putting words in my mouth, please consider how the game flow works in pro games before coming to the conclusion that I am trying to teach players out of our league to play a champion.

Just wait until carries become obsolete again. Shen will disappear from pro play faster than you can say "Riot."

Gregor Gysi1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, it does. The vast 99.98% of the community play on a non-professional level. When Shen has an already rapidly dropping win rate and he gets nerfed, pretty soon we're going to see no play from him. For goodness' sake, people expected to see buffs because of how weak his laning phase is and how underpowered his ultimate shield is for a 2 minute cooldown. Not to say his ultimate isn't valuable, it is. However, it takes just a critical hit or two to destroy Shen's shield, which is what carries pump out once they hit a few items.

So? A huge part of the community watches competetive play and doesn't like seeing the same champions over and over again. And 100% P/B is slightly too much isn't it? When a champion is way too strong in either soloQ or competetive it's clear that it needs adjustments no matter how badly it does in the other mode. But let's look at it like this. Azir has a 41% winrate in total in soloQ - do you want Azir buffs? Do you want Azir buffs until he is at 48% like Shen? Do you want Azir buffs until he is at 50%? I know that you don't. And that's fine. I like Azir and I don't want it myself because competetive gets just boring when Azir is 100% P/B.

{quoted}

Yes, it does. The vast 99.98% of the community play on a non-professional level. When Shen has an already rapidly dropping win rate and he gets nerfed, pretty soon we're going to see no play from him. For goodness' sake, people expected to see buffs because of how weak his laning phase is and how underpowered his ultimate shield is for a 2 minute cooldown. Not to say his ultimate isn't valuable, it is. However, it takes just a critical hit or two to destroy Shen's shield, which is what carries pump out once they hit a few items.

So? A huge part of the community watches competetive play and doesn't like seeing the same champions over and over again. And 100% P/B is slightly too much isn't it? When a champion is way too strong in either soloQ or competetive it's clear that it needs adjustments no matter how badly it does in the other mode. But let's look at it like this. Azir has a 41% winrate in total in soloQ - do you want Azir buffs? Do you want Azir buffs until he is at 48% like Shen? Do you want Azir buffs until he is at 50%? I know that you don't. And that's fine. I like Azir and I don't want it myself because competetive gets just boring when Azir is 100% P/B.

Please quote where I said any such thing, and if it was my comment about null-magic mantle, let me clear that up for you before you go straw-manning this discussion:

Oh please, your very idea that the reason for Shen being so strong in competetive is that pros don't properly build against him is just delusional.

Note how I say that null-magic mantle would win them TRADES IF Shen is giving them trouble. Post level 6, Shen becomes a roamer, which gives his lane opponent the options of following him with TP or pushing his tower and creating map pressure in his absence. This means they won't be trading much with Shen anyway, and I realize that they have their item priorities higher than that. So instead of putting words in my mouth, please consider how the game flow works in pro games before coming to the conclusion that I am trying to teach players out of our league to play a champion.

"I don't know why pro players don't do this" - Hey, apparantly you do realize why pro players don't do this. I did not put words in your mouth, you simply changed your mind.

Just wait until carries become obsolete again. Shen will disappear from pro play faster than you can say "Riot."

So? He is way too strong right now and there is no way to justify 100% P/B. Thinking about how strong he is going to be in the future is pure speculation.

Melledoneus1 votes

{quoted}

So? A huge part of the community watches competetive play and doesn't like seeing the same champions over and over again. And 100% P/B is slightly too much isn't it? When a champion is way too strong in either soloQ or competetive it's clear that it needs adjustments no matter how badly it does in the other mode.

I don't know where you're getting hte "100% P/B" Shen statistics from, I'm perusing through all the statistics from Esports and apparently Shen was not even played during those events. Not to mention that the people who WERE 100% P/B were Maokai, Lucian, Ekko, Azir, and Ryze. I'd like to see where you're getting that information.

Oh please, your very idea that the reason for Shen being so strong in competetive is that pros don't properly build against him is just delusional.

When did I ever say LCS players don't build properly against Shen? Perhaps I worded it wrong to make you think that or something, but I was simply saying that if LCS players ever had an issue with Shen, all they needed to do was build a base MR item to basically make his damage non-existent. Apparently they didn't.

"I don't know why pro players don't do this" - Hey, apparantly you do realize why pro players don't do this. I did not put words in your mouth, you simply changed your mind.

You implied that Shen was dominant and part of that is from his laning phase. So, responding to your argument, I replied that if that was the case, LCS players should build Null magic mantle in response and they'd be fine.

So? He is way too strong right now and there is no way to justify 100% P/B. Thinking about how strong he is going to be in the future is pure speculation.

Where are you getting 100% P/B?!? I haven't even found instances of Shen being PLAYED in their statistics, much less pick or ban at 100%.

Gregor Gysi1 votes

{quoted}

I don't know where you're getting hte "100% P/B" Shen statistics from, I'm perusing through all the statistics from Esports and apparently Shen was not even played during those events. Not to mention that the people who WERE 100% P/B were Maokai, Lucian, Ekko, Azir, and Ryze. I'd like to see where you're getting that information.

There you go. Whatever data you are using, didn't you realize how weird Lucian/Azir 100% P/B is?

When did I ever say LCS players don't build properly against Shen? Perhaps I worded it wrong to make you think that or something, but I was simply saying that if LCS players ever had an issue with Shen, all they needed to do was build a base MR item to basically make his damage non-existent. Apparently they didn't.

Let's leave it at that then.

You implied that Shen was dominant and part of that is from his laning phase. So, responding to your argument, I replied that if that was the case, LCS players should build Null magic mantle in response and they'd be fine.

So where did I imply that Shen has a dominant laning phase?

{quoted}

What? Melee? Why? And Shen is a top tier pick in LCS so I guess you just called the pro players stupid, nice.

{quoted} Where are you getting 100% P/B?!? I haven't even found instances of Shen being PLAYED in their statistics, much less pick or ban at 100%.

Jeez, you aren't following the pro scene at all, aren't you? You literally have 0 clue of what is happening in competetive so why are you even arguing with me? Here is the Shen match history just select an event and check the champion statistics or the scoreboards.

Melledoneus1 votes

{quoted}

There you go. Whatever data you are using, didn't you realize how weird Lucian/Azir 100% P/B is?

Same site, different regions. Apparently EU LCS Summer Playoffs is the one place I didn't bother looking because of the screen freeze it gave me before. However, every other region has hardly any Shen play where I looked, which is very odd to me if he's so dominant here.

So where did I imply that Shen has a dominant laning phase?

Every other person I've talked to who claims that Shen is broken always say he has a dominant laning phase. Forgive me if sometimes these arguments merge together sometimes in my head.

Jeez, you aren't following the pro scene at all, aren't you? You literally have 0 clue of what is happening in competetive so why are you even arguing with me?

It's not like I have "no idea" what's going on in competitive, I try to keep up with news on it. However, I follow SK and NA more than I follow EU, so I hope you can understand if I didn't know about things happening in the EU LCS at the moment, especially with how little time a guy has to check up on pro play AND game updates at the same time.

Gregor Gysi1 votes

{quoted}

Same site, different regions. Apparently EU LCS Summer Playoffs is the one place I didn't bother looking because of the screen freeze it gave me before. However, every other region has hardly any Shen play where I looked, which is very odd to me if he's so dominant here.

It's not like I have "no idea" what's going on in competitive, I try to keep up with news on it. However, I follow SK and NA more than I follow EU, so I hope you can understand if I didn't know about things happening in the EU LCS at the moment, especially with how little time a guy has to check up on pro play AND game updates at the same time.

Can you please just stop? LCK qualifiers: 60% P/B, wildcard qualifiers: 80% P/B, NA playoffs: 60% P/B, LPL qualifiers ~100% P/B. Wheverever you look, Shen is absolutely dominant. You clearly did not look at LCK/NA because Azir hasn't even been picked once in LCK qualifiers/NA playoffs - opposed to the 100% P/B you thought he had. I am not going to discuss whether a champ is dominant in competetive with someone who doesn't even watch competetive at all.

Melledoneus1 votes

I just realized you threw the topic completely off with your statements about Shen in competitive. If you gave anyone in the game a global teleport at level 6 with a shred of CC, they'd be picked in competitive.

The problem that I had was that the rework made his trading based on how ignorant your opponent is about your ranges and your kit, because Shen is one of the most predictable champions. Even if he hides his spirit sword, there's an arrow pointing to where it is. Even if Shen walks up to you, you can assume he's trying to jump on you for a trade. And unless you're immobile and suck at melee 1v1, Shen will not win that trade. Not to mention his E has an 18 second cooldown for an ability that's buggy, has an abnormally small hitbox, and can be interrupted by somebody breathing on him too hard.

But sure, let's talk about competitive because the two central parts of Shen's kit happened to be used by pro players correctly and people don't bother keeping track of the cooldown and pick their fights. LCS players should know better than anyone else that focus firing the target for Shen's ult will destroy his participation chances, but of course let's just make his already shitty laning phase into a masochistic experience for everyone who plays Shen.

You wanna talk competitive? Gnar is a mix of an ADC and bruiser who has poke, CC, initiation, team fight potential, and pretty much does everything you could expect a top laner to do. You can't touch him in his ranged form because of the slows and CC he has, and you can't fight him in his melee form because he becomes a juggernaut with a dash-into an AoE stomp. Not to mention he's a better Poppy with that ult, since he can AoE nuke the enemy team if god forbid they get 10 feet close to a wall. He also has been dominant in competitive and Riot buffs him even more because why not?

But sure, let's nerf Shen, the guy whose damage falls off with 25 MR unless he buys titanic hydra, whose only decent ability is on a 3 minute cooldown, and who has less scaling HP than SONA, and the least potentially scaling armor in the game.

Gregor Gysi1 votes

{quoted}

I just realized you threw the topic completely off with your statements about Shen in competitive. If you gave anyone in the game a global teleport at level 6 with a shred of CC, they'd be picked in competitive.

No, there were times when Shen/TF were not picked at all. And the issue is not only that Shen is basically P/B but that he is also rocking about a 60% winrate. Stop pretending that this is okay. So when looking at competetive you have to realize that he is too strong there. Hence nerfs are necessary. Discussing how strong he is in soloQ, however, is totally missleading as his soloQ performance is not the reason for the nerf.

{quoted}

The problem that I had was that the rework made his trading based on how ignorant your opponent is about your ranges and your kit, because Shen is one of the most predictable champions. Even if he hides his spirit sword, there's an arrow pointing to where it is. Even if Shen walks up to you, you can assume he's trying to jump on you for a trade. And unless you're immobile and suck at melee 1v1, Shen will not win that trade. Not to mention his E has an 18 second cooldown for an ability that's buggy, has an abnormally small hitbox, and can be interrupted by somebody breathing on him too hard.

"based on how ignorant your opponent is" "you can assume" "unless you're immobile and suck" "somebody breathing on him too hard" All you are doing is insulting everyone who feels that Shen is too strong. You say that everyone who has an issue with shen is "ignorant [...] stupid [...] and suck[s]. Great job, you've successfully called the pros who have huge issues with him (hence the banrate) stupid and ignorant and berated them about how they have to play against Shen. Thanks for your imput. How about you try to accept that there are valid reasons for Shen being too strong instead of insulting everyone who feels that way?

{quoted}

But sure, let's talk about competitive because the two central parts of Shen's kit happened to be used by pro players correctly and people don't bother keeping track of the cooldown and pick their fights. LCS players should know better than anyone else that focus firing the target for Shen's ult will destroy his participation chances, but of course let's just make his already shitty laning phase into a masochistic experience for everyone who plays Shen.

What? Do you mean to say that LCS players can't keep track of the cooldown or what is your point here?

{quoted}

You wanna talk competitive? Gnar is a mix of an ADC and bruiser who has poke, CC, initiation, team fight potential, and pretty much does everything you could expect a top laner to do. You can't touch him in his ranged form because of the slows and CC he has, and you can't fight him in his melee form because he becomes a juggernaut with a dash-into an AoE stomp. Not to mention he's a better Poppy with that ult, since he can AoE nuke the enemy team if god forbid they get 10 feet close to a wall. He also has been dominant in competitive and Riot buffs him even more because why not?

Wut? What does Gnar have to do with all this? He is OP therefore Shen can be OP aswell? Btw, I main Gnar and am totally fine with the nerfs and thought that the buffs were a bad idea. He performs nearly as well as Shen in competetive and therefore deserves the nerfs. But you really need to stop exaggerating, he wasn't picked in 2016 season at all until now. Riot thought that was weird as they thought he should do well in a tank meta, but now they realized that with the new masteries and Frozen Mallet Gnar is more of a carry now. Anyways, talk about being misleading.

{quoted}

~~> But sure, let's nerf Shen, the guy whose damage falls off with 25 MR unless he buys titanic hydra, whose only decent ability is on a 3 minute cooldown, and who has less scaling HP than SONA, and the least potentially scaling armor in the game. ~~

Ftfy: But sure, let's nerf Shen, the guy who is nearly 100% P/B in competetive and has about a 60% winrate there and with this is outperforming every single toplaner.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

The team wide AS is just too powerful. It's like 4000 gold worth of stats at max rank. You can't balance that. The only reason WW isn't pick/ban in pro scenes is because of how immobile he is for a jungler.

arghilost3 votes

if you look at my champs played you'll see that I love immobile, the fact you are rewarded for good positioning and are stronger in other areas is appealing to me. All these champs with oh oops im caught hurr durr use my dash over this wall isn't what I want warwick to become.

I agree that his W is a stupid ability, but i hope they retain the idea of him having team utility. That was my point.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Yes but he's a melee Hunter. Hunters don't really work if they get kited. He needs SOME mobility to avoid carries just orb walking him to death.

arghilost4 votes

well I suspect (or hope) they will keep his ultimate very similar as it's pretty iconic, the instant blink suppression has always been his bread and butter identity which is mobility without it being a "run away over walls" ability. I also suspect blood scent will remain slightly similar as its a very unique mechanic and fits perfectly with some tune-ups on it. The art of melee kiting has been lost but warwick is one of the last to possess it with his sustain/constant movespeed mechanics.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

I'm just waiting for a champion rework/new release that uses neither a 3/4 hit passive NOR a %max/%curr/%missing HP ability.

PB4UAME3 votes

Well, current WW has both a %max hp ability (one of the very first in the game) and the first %missing health ability (iirc) in his Blood Scent.

CerealBoxOfDoom2 votes

remove rengar stealth

replace it with real hunter skill

keep ww W

make his kit more centered around this. His bloodlust should drive him to kill.

Rengar does not need a stealth, what he needs is a trap and information rewards (vision) for smart play

stealthing away from rengar because his ult is on cooldown shouldn't even be possible. He should have like a neverending item 3364 effect

Rengar's current stealth is nothing more than an ability representative of damage evasion similar to yasuo's shield but it also blocks cc and debuffs in a way while letting nontargeted damage through. There is likely some way to keep his playpattern without giving his ult braindead easy information advantage (full uninhibited stealth)

"but muh le stealth makes moi feel like le huntour" ~bullshitters

bullshit, what kind of hunter stealth's through a pack of predators to his prey. Perhaps we should give him a machine gun as well?

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