Since Riot refuses to properly nerf Top Kench what do you suggest?

AMADEUSdotEXE·Jun 9, 2019·13 votes·11,192 views

#I want it to be clear that we're talking about Top Kench not Tahm as a whole. I don't think he should be forced out of the Top lane meta entirely and top level players shouldn't be able to determine if the nerfs to his kit actually did something to Top Kench. I think that a good place to start by nerfing the range from 900 to 800/600. Something that wouldn't impact his support game too much but make laning against him top lane less... shit. He's always going to be annoying to lane against but I feel like giving other toplaners more room to interact with him after he Qs would be good. I'm not the guy to really be making these calls but I must admit his damage seems a little balls. If he is a "Juggernaut" then I get it, they all do pretty crazy damage and he doesn't seem all that capable of carrying a game. He seems like his goal is to stop you from being relevant lategame since he doesn't really do much.

55 Comments

IonshatterJun 10, 201914 votes

1.5 second stun on a 2 second CD ability.

I'll let you do the math there.

AMADEUSdotEXEJun 10, 20191 votes

{quoted}

1.5 second stun on a 2 second CD ability.

I'll let you do the math there.

what the hell his Q is 2 seconds? He isnt a mage xD

MartialArtsForYJun 10, 20191 votes

Exactly

Tahminatrix Jun 10, 20193 votes

2.25 at max rank with 45% cdr.

It used to have a base cooldown of 6, then riot reduced it to 5, then they made it scale down to 4 from 8 as you put points in it.

Hemulen MagiJun 10, 201911 votes

I think Riot should buff the lowest performing top laners instead of nerfing the best performing in this case. If Riot starts nerfing champions like Aatrox TahmKench then who will rise up to take their places?

I suspect that would just start to erode diversity and bring back the situation where the only viable top picks are ranged lane bullies and those who can survive against them (mobile fighters with CC). Vladimir Kennen Quinn Teemo Vayne Neeko Jayce Yasuo Riven Jax Irelia Renekton

I don't like that meta because it lacks proper frontliners and teamfights without frontlines tend to be over too quickly and feel like steamrolling over whichever team is behind. Games are too snowbally and bursty without proper frontlining champions. That kind of meta is also much too restrictive in which champions are played.

I would rather Riot leave Aatrox TahmKench decently strong (maybe they could get slight nerfs) and try to bring more champions lesser played frontliners up to their level in top lane to improve competition and to create more variety while still encouraging well rounded team compositions. Galio Gragas Rumble DrMundo Chogath Maokai Malphite Sion Singed Trundle Volibear Kled Mordekaiser Ornn Shen Poppy Illaoi

MartialArtsForYJun 10, 20191 votes

Don’t buff poppy or rumble. It sucks playing vs them

AgentsTeemoJun 10, 20191 votes

Just pick darius vs rumble... Works for me

AMADEUSdotEXEJun 12, 20191 votes

I would rather Riot leave decently strong (maybe they could get slight nerfs) and try to bring more champions lesser played frontliners up to their level in top lane to improve competition and to create more variety while still encouraging well rounded team compositions.

That looks like a tank meta to me man, I'm going to have to disagree on that one. Tank meta means likely Fiora/Gnar Buffs, Gnar/teemo/kennen play, and Vayne top may come back. NO Tank top lane metas are just too damn slow. Personally I enjoy our current bruiser meta because less "tanky" bruisers are actually viable. We all know Riven/trynd etc. will basically vanish if that happens.

Hemulen MagiJun 12, 20191 votes

Champions like Riven never really vanish from top. Riven goes from like 25% pick rate when she's seriously dominant to 5-8% when she's "out of meta" but there are always other top laners with only 1-2% pick rate. When the meta is really toughest on Riven in top lane, she just moves to mid or jungle, but she's too flexible to ever fall out of flavor entirely.

People call it a "tank meta" when beefy frontliners (including fighters, so not even all tanks) are actually being played at >2% pick rate each, even though other classes are still being played at the same or higher pick rates. I remember the last "tank meta" where the most played champions in frontliners' primary positions, top and jungle, were a mix of mobile fighters and assassins (though some assassins were building tank items). If a class being viable but not necessarily dominant defines a meta, then we've been in a non-stop marksman + mobile fighter meta for a decade.

Also people have been saying the game pace is too fast and damage is too high for at least a year now, yet you are worried that bringing back frontliners will make the pace too slow... I mean, it could swing back too far in the other direction, but I don't think it's close to that in most peoples' opinions.

A good looking meta in my opinion would have every class being played and none truly dominant (or mandatory on all team comps... marksmen). I see you play Neeko for example, and I don't want Neeko to be unplayable, just maybe not in top lane. She can be a healthier mid + bot laner, or maybe even a jungler if Riot adjusted her kit. Ranged versus melee lanes are usually one-sided and frustrating unless if they heavily involve roaming instead of regular laning (so I think ranged mid vs assassins roaming from mid is fine).

AMADEUSdotEXEJun 14, 20191 votes

Dude I havent played Neeko since she came out xD How far back did you go lmao But i get you i guess. I'm just biased

Hemulen MagiJun 14, 20191 votes

Well, you only started playing games again about a week ago according to your match history, so I didn't even look very far back.
Originally, I wasn't suggesting you were even biased though. I mentioned Neeko just because I wanted to make it clear I wasn't advocating removing any of your preferred champions from the game. I don't play Tahm Kench, but I don't want his playerbase to lose their champion either.

Now that I took a second look, I only see a couple matches where you even played against a Tahm Kench top. What it really looks like is that you came back to the game recently and were rusty. You had the misfortune of getting matched in a normals game laning against a player who was higher ranked than you and had more recent practice. You were unfamiliar with the Tahm Kench lane matchup and he beat you, as could be expected by the rank difference anyways. From that experience, you formed a strong negative opinion of Tahm Kench.

AMADEUSdotEXEJun 15, 20191 votes

I'm sorry again xD I haven't even laned against one but i am a bit rusty. just see him dominating. watching streams too befroe

Hemulen MagiJun 15, 20191 votes

Okay. I was assuming you were playing top lane in your Sylas games but I see now they were all mid.

Tahminatrix Jun 9, 20199 votes

They just need to give him back his late game and take away all of the early - mid game powercreeping that they gave him to compensate.

He used to have to put points in his ultimate in order to get the damage that he has on his current passive.

gabetheguyJun 10, 20196 votes

Give him a few more seconds on his tongue cooldown and he should be fine. Nerfing his range would fuck him as a support and not really affect him top. The main problem with him is that he cant be punished for missing a q because it's right back up just a few second later.

Revert AkaIiJun 10, 20195 votes

I suggest an akali revert

AMADEUSdotEXEJun 10, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=EI Truco,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wr2YBLO5,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-06-10T02:35:11.032+0000)

I suggest an akali revert

whats wrong with her...?

shadowhunter4444Jun 10, 20191 votes

Some people just hate Akali without particularly good reason for the amount of vitriol. I personally love the reworked Akali.

AristotelarasJun 10, 20192 votes

Her kit is completely broken like her old kit was. She needs at least a small rework like aatrox. Her current kit is impossible to balance

Revert AkaIiJun 10, 20192 votes

A small rework is more work than a flat out revert. I have a feeling a revert is more likely

shadowhunter4444Jul 28, 20191 votes

I mained Akali before and after the rework. I have posted a lot of places on this board talking about how much I love new Akali and how a revert would be awful. We can discuss this in depth if you want, but suffice to say I think a revert would be a very bad idea.

Revert AkaIiAug 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I mained Akali before and after the rework. I have posted a lot of places on this board talking about how much I love new Akali and how a revert would be awful. We can discuss this in depth if you want, but suffice to say I think a revert would be a very bad idea.

Welp. Don't wanna bother arguing with you. I have many many posts about how reverting akali would be beneficial to the game. So instead of arguing, just go read those and I promise your mind will change (:

Revert AkaIiJun 10, 20192 votes

Actually I like the new Akali bc she's broken. I repeatedly clap people over and over with her. I'm just a kind person and I see that this needs to go. Not fair for other players. But that aint the only reason. Not allowed to adversities so I can't show you why she needs to be reverted.

Revert AkaIiJun 10, 20192 votes

im not allowed to advertise for different posts on boards bc of Riot's rules but I created a super long basically essay on why to revert.

ORRGOGJun 10, 20192 votes

We need a Sej revert more than anything.

5StackUltOneShotJun 10, 20194 votes

Just get his fucking stacks to fall off faster, if he only needs 3 stacks why does it take 5 seconds for the stacks to start falling off?

Twilight WolfJun 10, 20194 votes

Get better lol. I mean if you cant use a champion to beat him ban him. I personally dont have trouble beating him top lane. Unless the enemy jungler has decided to pitch a tent top lane it is a pretty simple fight. Darius, illaoi, and irralia can take him with ease if they have conquer and build tanky from start since they can hurt with little damge items and tahm is not a burst champion just a tank with some healing. Garren can do it with blackcleaver and grasp as a main mastery. Lets see we have rumble with thunderloards building liandras and the crstal scepter. Teemo, kennen, gnar using grasp to do extra damge and building a grieves item first. Hemi top that fun beatting the cat fish with. I have actually been having a lot of fun against him too it like seeing a vayne and i peged her for going top. I think the only real peoblem with it is that it is new and a lot of players struggle very badly against a champion in a lane that theybare not use too.

IkBenShteenJun 10, 20194 votes

Can you please, for the love of god, stop touching this champ. He used to be a support, mainly because he was a good safety net for inept adc's who always went out of position. Riot pushed him out of support by nerfing his W on allies. Now he's played toplane to deal with the current 'hurdurdur I'm riven and you can't kill me' to match it, and people give an outcry. Finally, a glimpse of tank meta is returning where as tahm kench you are fighting for a good amount of time with your enemy, rather than getting blown up, and everyone seems to cry about it.

You can literally pick anything into kench (if you use conq or lethal tempo) and you can just roam and kill the enemy mid while tahm is busy farming top and doing 0 damage to the turret. Literally, the reason people lose this matchup is because people go firstpick riven/jax top and cry when they get counterpicked by something tanky that can deal with them.

I actually feel usefull as a tank now, at least in 1v1. Going into a fed team (fed by my teammates) you end up dead in 2.3s anyways so there's no much difference other than that the dumbass bruiser kid who doesn't even have to think about managing resources or cd's is now rekt by a tank that counterbuilds.

REMEMBER BACK IN THE DAY? BRUISERS > ADC ASSASSINS > ADC ADC > TANK TANK > BRUISERS BRUISERS > ASSASSINS

We are finally at a tipping point, I hope to see more tanky toplaners so fights actually require some skill and thinking (where will i spit him etc, when will I shield). Currently it's just a big urf fest.

Doctor CamilleJun 10, 20191 votes

Yeah everyone loves playing against someone who can just q>aa>aa>w>q in less than 5 seconds to kill you while also building full tank. He can easily tower dive you by level 9 and there isnt anything you can do about it. There isnt a single top laner that can defeat him right now. Im not saying they should put him back to support but they should at least introduce a way for players to defeat him in lane. They shouldnt buff tanks by giving them damage but by giving them more defenses. Tahm deals way too much damage for someone who builds pure tank

SuperTopLFBottomJun 11, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Can you please, for the love of god, stop touching this champ. He used to be a support, mainly because he was a good safety net for inept adc's who always went out of position. Riot pushed him out of support by nerfing his W on allies. Now he's played toplane to deal with the current 'hurdurdur I'm riven and you can't kill me' to match it, and people give an outcry. Finally, a glimpse of tank meta is returning where as tahm kench you are fighting for a good amount of time with your enemy, rather than getting blown up, and everyone seems to cry about it.

You can literally pick anything into kench (if you use conq or lethal tempo) and you can just roam and kill the enemy mid while tahm is busy farming top and doing 0 damage to the turret. Literally, the reason people lose this matchup is because people go firstpick riven/jax top and cry when they get counterpicked by something tanky that can deal with them.

I actually feel usefull as a tank now, at least in 1v1. Going into a fed team (fed by my teammates) you end up dead in 2.3s anyways so there's no much difference other than that the dumbass bruiser kid who doesn't even have to think about managing resources or cd's is now rekt by a tank that counterbuilds.

REMEMBER BACK IN THE DAY? BRUISERS > ADC ASSASSINS > ADC ADC > TANK TANK > BRUISERS BRUISERS > ASSASSINS

We are finally at a tipping point, I hope to see more tanky toplaners so fights actually require some skill and thinking (where will i spit him etc, when will I shield). Currently it's just a big urf fest.

Yeah tank champions are the epitome of skill in league.

Nick ClarkJun 10, 20193 votes

This board is a joke lmao. If you really struggle against tahm, you are just a lazy or unskilled player. Tahm is a giga useless champ if you don’t turbo int him since the start, it’s like Darius but with double health. It’s really sad that low elo players always end up recurring crying for nerfs instead of learning to play against him. I personally played against tahm numerous times and if you don’t die and stay near same cs as him, you basically play 4v5 because he’s not even a champion. This all without considering how free is to gank a tahm. Get a grip :)

TP GankerJun 10, 20192 votes

Amen dude, played against plats and high gold with my Tahm and they don't struggle much. The bare starts to get really pumped up in how to actually make him useful. In lower elo people just continue to try and fight you in the middle of lane after giving two kills and 2 waves of exp and complain tk is op. Learn how to play the game and let's get the real op unfair champs like riven on the boards.

IkBenShteenJun 10, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nick Clark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wr2YBLO5,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2019-06-10T13:37:38.600+0000)

This board is a joke lmao. If you really struggle against tahm, you are just a lazy or unskilled player. Tahm is a giga useless champ if you don’t turbo int him since the start, it’s like Darius but with double health. It’s really sad that low elo players always end up recurring crying for nerfs instead of learning to play against him. I personally played against tahm numerous times and if you don’t die and stay near same cs as him, you basically play 4v5 because he’s not even a champion. This all without considering how free is to gank a tahm. Get a grip :)

so true, unfortunately people don't understand. Also he has 0 escapes pre 6 so yno, just gank him for free meat?

YUUKI VKJun 10, 20192 votes

id say make his passive have a cooldown when he eats you for that stupid level of damage, as once he does that all he will do is spam q and aa you to death without any real from of counterplay, mean ffs even straight bs champs like riven cant win

ORRGOGJun 10, 20192 votes

Kench hardly op only time there is trouble is pure tank on aram T.kench boi

TP GankerJun 10, 20192 votes

Typical complainers, "Nerf Kench" wahhhhh but not a word about riven???? Ok guy

AgentsTeemoJun 10, 20191 votes

The only toplaner who can just all in destroy you on 1v1 with burst

PlanetofjunkJun 10, 20191 votes

{quoted}

#I want it to be clear that we're talking about Top Kench not Tahm as a whole. I don't think he should be forced out of the Top lane meta entirely and top level players shouldn't be able to determine if the nerfs to his kit actually did something to Top Kench. I think that a good place to start by nerfing the range from 900 to 800/600. Something that wouldn't impact his support game too much but make laning against him top lane less... shit. He's always going to be annoying to lane against but I feel like giving other toplaners more room to interact with him after he Qs would be good. I'm not the guy to really be making these calls but I must admit his damage seems a little balls. If he is a "Juggernaut" then I get it, they all do pretty crazy damage and he doesn't seem all that capable of carrying a game. He seems like his goal is to stop you from being relevant lategame since he doesn't really do much.

Silver Tahmn Kench most likely easier to beat than a high elo Tahmn Kench

HyVeeJun 10, 20191 votes

Kench and Yuumi top and solo adc bot strat is op

JDC KILLAJun 10, 20191 votes

Ain't gonna lie to you, I feel like his q just has a very low cd and too good of base damage, like i've always thought this, a tank shouldnt be able to build full tank and still do that much damage, the whole point of the role is to be a tanky, cc heavy, frontliner that won't do 400 damage every 3 second q.

FrostfelJun 10, 20191 votes

Not being a game balancer I would honestly say the damage on his swallow/spit. From what most people I've seen on the boards say it's the least fun/interactive part about him. Reducing the damage would not hurt support Tahm Kench and would allow potential to have better damage scaling on other aspects of his kit that allow for more counter play.

AdcSpamerJun 10, 20191 votes

Im fine with just banning hik as usualy

Lazy GrandpaJun 10, 20191 votes

there is no suggestion, just play the lane like a little bitch and not fight the kench at all, farm up, outscale and GG, paying off your jungler to camp top or even the enemy jungler to ignore top will help too. use champ that shove lanes really fast then run around the top side waiting for the next wave or steal some allied or enemy rocks or gromp in between waves. maybe gank mid or so.

this is what i do to cope. he hard beats all melee matchups with pretty much zero counterplay besides getting lucky and dodging a Q or having an ally camp your ass, why risk fighting him and funneling more gold into him when you can just go even in lane.

no point crying about this champ all day, he's just a representative of what happens when tanks hit harder than actual champions while buying full resistances. literaly a preview of tank meta, this is what will happen when you give some tank champions the tiniest buff at this point.

Smai0Jun 10, 20192 votes

I've told people similar things before, all I get is basically as follows:

Try to shove and not interact

Kench sits on you

try to get jungler to help

Implying junglers want to even come top/Having to rely on junglers at all is awful and/or junglers would sooner shoot themselves in the feet than go near top lane if it's not some easy squishy to pop.

Tahm basically has control of the lane now. Let Tahm push you under turret because you can not risk pushing at all because a single Q in an extended lane means you're probably dead. Every time you go to last hit you get hit with a Q, even under turret. Get worn down. You have to run out of the lane to recall because Tahm Kench is literally built to dive towers and his jungler will know it. Tahm by virtue of existing in his current state is going to put most every champion down like 3 kills of gold in CS in laning phase.

Tim From WorkJun 10, 20191 votes

Maybe make it so the q stun consumes stacks so he can’t stun you then eat you, also no mans cost on shield seems a little strong to me but I think the first issue is the biggest problem

xshortzoxJun 10, 20191 votes

No one is talking about the fact he can use q-w combo completely free of mana because of the (what I assumed is a bug) interaction with his nana restoration. A free harrass ability on a champ that should be forced to all in you is bs. I think if this got changed so he can't use that for free it would be at least a much better matchups to pick a ranged top into.

cherryblissdeeJun 10, 20191 votes

Play nasus //thread

AMADEUSdotEXEJun 11, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Play nasus //thread

Cassiopeia item 3116 lol

xxxliltrash Jun 14, 20191 votes

Remove the the stun on q, and make it so that q only slows once the enemy already has 2 stacks of passive. This fucks support kench, but they can hopefully buff the W on teammate to make up.

MrVörtNov 10, 20191 votes

Just played Tahm in Top... and sitting and wondering when the patch came, that removed him Passive from being Applied when his Q hits a Champion... or when you W a Minion and spit it to a Champion.

ONLY way to apply the passive as of right now, is through Basic Attacks, which IMO ruined any chance of scaring any opponent from going in with 2 stacks of my passive (Since when Q applied stacks, you hit twice Q and got the stun procced)