Ornn's in a pretty rough spot right now. In the spirit of talking about Ornn, I will be like him and keep things simple.
Here are my ideas for changes: -Nerf W damage -Put Onstoppable back on W -Slightly reduce ult width but make period of time to ram it more forgiving -Move half of dash damage to collision damage
That is all. Thank you.
D357R0Y3R13 votesputting unstoppable on his W is NOT possible why people aren't getting it? it essentially removed all the counterplay you have except "run away"
one thing that is possible is putting unstoppable on his E
Melledoneus5 votesPutting unstoppable on the E is plausible but it doesn't achieve much. The E's only there for collision with terrain. Having unstoppable doesn't change much about its use.
The W's problem was never that it made Ornn unstoppable, but the fact that he does a whopping 30% maximum HP damage with one cast. The unstoppable aspect actually added depth to playing him, in my experience.
Chembaron Yamada3 votesIt added depth to playing him, yes. And that was what they wanted to reduce.
The goal was to bring the winrates of people who recently picked up Ornn closer to the winrate of people who mastered Ornn. How do we close the gap between beginner winrate and main winrate? By removing skill expression from the kit.
kargish2 votesEh, that's just a straight up nerf. You haven't compensated for the new Ornn players in any way, they'll continue to play him the way they do and achieve the exactly same results, perhaps even lower now that the skill expression is gone. Meanwhile, the actual good players will be hit hard since their skill expression was taken away, resulting in an overall nerf/decrease in skill ceiling on all levels.
Chembaron Yamada1 votesBut players who just started playing Ornn usually tend to be way less skilled in using his W to deny CC.
Yes, it is a nerf. But the nerf hit the mains more than new players. And this means that the gap between these 2 extremes becomes smaller, like they wanted.
Azadethe10 votesExcept..... Bellows Breath has a considerably large cooldown...... still took damage..... and is sidesteppable..... and cc lasted after W was over....
You sure seem to think Yi's Alpha Strike must be in a good place... considering it's "allowed"...... except in his case, he doesn't even take damage.
Häxel3 votesnot taking a side. But yi q is at least just damage and you neeed to build damage. ornn builds tank and stilld eals a lot of damage on w. and he applys brittle which ornn can apply for extra dmg. You see effectivly ornn w was basicly morgana e. but morgana e deals no damage, so it was even far better. Only downgrade you move a bit slow but that wasn't like a big weakness for the things it gave and only nerfing w damage a bit would not be enough. maybe with w dealing no dmg unstoppable could be made.
Azadethe2 votesI play Ornn and that's just ludicrous. W by itself doesn't and hasn't done significant damage until it's about Tier 4-5. And even then.... it has never done significant damage unless hitting extraordinarily HP low champs like adcs/mages, because it has a minimum damage on it. Vs tanks, or fighters, the damage has always been trivial.
Also, Morgana's W does FAR more damage, especially if the target's HP is lower. At decent AP scaling or a 
(which Morg almost always builds and Ornn doesn't), Soil does around 270+ 1% Max HP per tick, 2% if slowed. You're lucky to get 78-90 damage per tick on Ornn.
What's significant is the difference in how it applies: Morg is per half second. Ornn is per 1/4 second. That means..... Second wind affects Ornn's damage less.
Ornn has FAR less map control than a Morgana, btw, less strength in his cc, and has horrible mana control. Like all tanks.... damage doesn't scale with stats. His mobility is third rate at best, and almost all his skills are disruptable. He doesn't even have unstoppable during his E, where almost all other dashes in the game do. You can actually disrupt his E about 70% of the time, by rooting, stunning, etc..... and the skill literally doesn't even execute..... but does go on cooldown.
The only reason Ornn ever pulls off decent damage? Because he never has to recall, and can contribute to more fights.
Häxel1 votesI play Ornn and that's just ludicrous. W by itself doesn't and hasn't done significant damage until it's about Tier 4-5. And even then.... it has never done significant damage unless hitting extraordinarily HP low champs like adcs/mages, because it has a minimum damage on it. Vs tanks, or fighters, the damage has always been trivial.
Also, Morgana's W does FAR more damage, especially if the target's HP is lower. At decent AP scaling or a
What's significant is the difference in how it applies: Morg is per half second. Ornn is per 1/4 second. That means..... Second wind affects Ornn's damage less.
Ornn has FAR less map control than a Morgana, btw, less strength in his cc, and has horrible mana control. Like all tanks.... damage doesn't scale with stats. His mobility is third rate at best, and almost all his skills are disruptable. He doesn't even have unstoppable during his E, where almost all other dashes in the game do. You can actually disrupt his E about 70% of the time, by rooting, stunning, etc..... and the skill literally doesn't even execute..... but does go on cooldown.
The only reason Ornn ever pulls off decent damage? Because he never has to recall, and can contribute to more fights.
i meant morgana e, the spellshield, mixed it up. With the conetxt you could have thought about it as i said dealing no damage and reffering to the cc immunity.
Less map controla s morgana? How do you define map control on morgana? Walking with mobis around the map if she is played as a support? Well ornn ahs teleport and his big range ult.
Don't you think playing as ornn makes you kidna biased on things like saying he has nearly no damage on his w and a low manapool. Cause i can tell from countless toplaners playing vs ornn that is like the diffrence. he deals to much damage as a tanka dn can spam his abilitys without runing out of mana. He can build an abyssal to get even more mana and increase his damage and tankyness. If for soem reason you play a mage top you just get outdamaged cause he now has mr (and his w shield) while you just can't rush penetration like voidstuff cause you actualy need a manaitem first. But even normal fighters and tanks ahve to deal with him. You can see toplaners like hashinshin complaining about ornn all the time adn even if you can see hashinshin as a good or bad exampel he is not the only one. So to see ornn objective you have to play, play with and play vs ornn and not only look from one perspective.
And saying nearly all dashes are unstoppable is just straight up wrong.
Azadethe1 votesI play 
.
Morgana has more access to move speed runes, longer more powerful CC, and higher burst damage.
I'm speaking on his mana pool as someone who plays over half the champion roster. He is literally out of mana on traditional builds after 4-5 casts, unless he begins building 
or 
which buys him a couple more casts. This means you either have to blow Teleport on a champ that can self purchase..... defeating the purpose of his passive, or forgo what are actually the best build choices vs an opponent, losing pressure.
Your description of your experience with Ornn obviously shows bias. Try 
vs Ornn. You rip him to shreds. MOST tops rip Ornn to shreds when played correctly. Ornn's lane phase basically consists of going in to W a wave and try to chip them off while using Q to peel opponent champs. Then he uses E to escape the pressure. If he attempts to duel 70% of tops, he loses.
Instead, he spends 90% of trades chipping off a little bit here or there. And then MAYBE once he reaches 6, the opponent only has 15% HP. so he goes in and blows up that 15% because the person didn't recall.
At almost NO point, can Ornn play aggressively. I may be able to beat 
early game, but they ALL beat Ornn after 6.
Champs that beat Ornn OUTRIGHT:
(Completely disrupts every single E, true damage, isolation, and a wall Ornn can't break)
(Wind wall blocks all but E, and he can disrupt E with a Q. Literally the entire kit is made worthless. Even if you time skills for Wind Wall Down times, Yasuo will still win because his barrier is stronger, sustain greater, spam MUCH faster, and he can prevent you from knocking him up. There's also a bug that allows Yas to continue fighting even when knocked up)
Post 6 Absolutely destroys Ornn.
Prevents over half of Ornn's farm with superior zoning. You're prone when you are W, so Darius just pulls you while stationary, gets in 2-3 hits and bleeds you out per trade. If he has both Phase Rush and Ghost, he will likely be able to get in all 5 hits and ult.
% Mag damage is still huge even if you rush Mag resist. Mundo can persistently hit axes because Ornn is a big target, and can outrun Ornn. Furthermore, Ornn's W fully maximizes Mundo's E damage resist increase. He heals faster than Ornn can damage, and in 4-5 Axes, Ornn is dead.
Zones out Ornn, does huge per hit damage, heals out, and is more mobile.
Long range, has 2 ways to disrupt Ornn E, % damage, armor shred.
Completely shreds Ornn if she gets 3 Mark resets.
I can go on and on. There are no 1 sided trades top with Ornn anymore. That's why he's pushing 46% as a Top. He can passively win a lane, but he can't win aggressively, and in team fights, he rarely every executes someone on his own. It requires the team chiseling them down, and Ornn cleaning up.
Dashes that are unstoppable:
Dark Flight.
Special Package.
Noxian Guillotine (Ult)
Onslaught of Shadows (Ult)
Cataclysm (ult dash)
Chaarrrge! (Unstoppable until he stops)
Unstoppable Force (Ult Unstoppables him during duration)
Paranoia (During Ult)
(Dragon's Ascent (Ult Dash)
Unstoppable Onslaught (Ult Dash)
Assault and Battery (Ult)
Jaws of the Beast (Q) AND Infinite Duress (Ult)
Let's Bounce (Ult)
That doesn't include "Untargetable" Dashes:
Ult
Rappel (E)
Playful
Ult.
Twisted Advance
Then there's Vanish Status, which literally is both Untargettable, and Invisible:
Alpha Strike
Hallucinate (Ult)
(Ult)
(Ult)
And then, you have to consider most of the OTHER dashes:
Ornn is none of the above. If he gets disrupted on E, it goes on cooldown. And his is super easy to disrupt, because it's one of the few line of sight Dashes that brings you to an opponent.... and most of THOSE have Unstoppable or Vanish. His Q is also disruptable, and both have windups of .5-1 seconds.
BeatzBoyFTW1 votesSo his E is a Vi ultimate now.
K
D357R0Y3R2 votesdidn't know that ornn E was point and click and removed half of your hp
BeatzBoyFTW1 votes"remove half of your hp". Exaggerate much?
The similar concept he has was:
You're saying that if I get slowed by his Q or got annoyed by outside CC, I don't deserve to have some sort of CC to save myself from pushing Ornn away as he's about to knock me up?
Thefrostyviking12 votesThe issue was not it doing tons of damage post laning.
The issue was that he in lane could just walk up to you, start his W and tank anything you did while being immune to CC and then go back to deny any potential damage you might do.
Sure, more damage on his W made this combo more annoying but consider this, if he didnt have that damage wouldnt people just facetank his W and stove his head in while he was doing it?
By removing the unstoppable and keeping the damage they reward good timeing and make it possible to punish a bad ornn.
Rather than making it acceptable to avoid any time you might want to CC him by starting to breathe fire.
I for one am very thankful its gone, the rare few times i had to toplane against him back then it felt like he could just press W and watch me fail about accomplishing nothing while he walked away freely every time.
It was waaaay too safe........but i could consider if they were to make like the first second unstoppable and the rest....well stoppable.
That way he can still do some fancy plays while its possible to bash him for making a mistake i think.
Melledoneus2 votesThat could certainly work, having a portion of the ability mitigate CC.
It's unfortunate that the game is so fast paced because were it slowed down a bit Ornn could actually be useful in that setting.
Demon King Maou9 votesOR we could take lux ult and make him fire 12 at once all around him every 20's randomly I think that's honestly the only choice .. That sounded better in my head
Melledoneus10 votesIf that's not a surefire way to get hired into Riot's balance team I dunno what is.
AirKingNeo3 votes-Nerf W damage -Put Onstoppable back on W
but that would require Riot to finally acknowledge what people said in the first place...
Axe Named Sword2 votesHonestly I think he's in a pretty good spot now, though I probably don't speak for most Ornn players since I play him support.
VelvetCrotch2 votes#Ornnstoppable *
MAKE ORNN GREAT AGAIN!
*this slogan is not sponsored
Besteal2 votesYeah. I pretty much stopped playing Ornn because they removed Unstoppable. And not only did they remove unstoppable, they nerfed how his E's damage worked, halved the duration of brittle, and nerfed the damage on his W as well. I mean. Could have just nerfed the damage back down another peg and kept unstoppable, but...
Welp, this is why Ornn support isn't a thing anymore.
The Yetii Rider1 votesHonestly the best thing to do to make Ornn balanceable is to make his W deal 25% damage to minions. Take him out of top lane entirely and put him in the jungle where he's a lot healthier.
Sasogwa2 votes[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wqJl2xi2,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-05-20T14:50:45.545+0000)
Honestly the best thing to do to make Ornn balanceable is to make his W deal 25% damage to minions. Take him out of top lane entirely and put him in the jungle where he's a lot healthier.
You do realize that this makes him get still his powerful trading without the downsides of pushing the lane making him much more of an insane lanebully?
The Yetii Rider1 votesA better lane bully at the cost of significantly worse wave clear, which is something that top laners need in order to function after the laning phase has ended.
DingDongDanger1 votesI actually don't have a problem with Ornn anymore. I left top lane and went to Support with him and it works great... He was actually my first S+ and mastery 7 toon. Although I do understand the complaints with him... People love him as a toplaner and it would be nice to have the cooldown on his W reduced again so it's not 17 freakin' seconds anymore. I was tilted off the planet when they upped the cooldown because it forced me to give up on jungling with him.
Kavren20551 votesdont change the ult, it feels hard to hit cause, 1 you dont know how then, 2 because you can get cc'd, saving w to ensure ult is what you want
AS I LAY FEEDING1 votesOrnn wins every lane and dominates pro play. You cant expect tanks to carry your game in soloQ, it will be a coinflip game everytime. giving back unstoppable on a spammable ability sounds stupid to me.
only reason you are complaining is that after 20+min a fighter/yasuo with conq will just kill you. Complain about conq instead.
Shablagoo1 votesOrnns kit lacks counterplay in melee situations, adding the unstopabble feature would make it even worse.
Refer A Friend 11 votesHow about making his ult dodgeable without mobility before we consider buffing it?
