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@RIOT, why not make sated devourer proc every 3 hits?

Dr Poro··45 votes·2,814 views

This has actually been suggested since Sated entered beta. Almost all players were convinced immediately that Sated was broken and can't live in its current form. Even Stonewall said so, and he's usually on spot with his analyses. But that were just predictions/conclusions from early testing. Now, we have stats. What do the stats say? 4 out of 5 highest winrate junglers are devourer junglers. The one that isn't devourer (Elise at #4) is getting a nerf next patch. More than half of the top 15 junglers use devourer, and they're clustered at the top.

Yet, RiotRepertoir said that you prefer a "nerf the champs individually" approach. You know that it won't fix it. The standard of AS junglers will have to be completely different from other junglers because of this item, and those champs will be completely unviable with any other build path. Eventually, Devourer WILL get nerfed (it reminds me of the 'we won't nerf kassadin's mobility' disaster) and these champs will be left to rot under the nerfs.

I know you want to keep devourer a strong item because it allows more champs to jungle, but the sated passive is abused by a handful of champs (Warwick Kayle Shyvana XinZhao Udyr MasterYi ) who are able to get too much out of those extra procs. Nerfing the proc to once every 3 hits will be a lesser deal for the non-meta devourer junglers than it will be for the "omg I got 6 on hit effects that proc 3 times every 2 hits" junglers, which are the problematic ones. Yet, you seem to not like this approach or just ignore it. Why?

41 Comments

Bears Dont Care5 votes

I think it's a good idea. though saying WW abuses it saddens me

LilxPaprika8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wqFcKqhP,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-08-18T20:20:06.683+0000)

I think it's a good idea. though saying WW abuses it saddens me

It's more like it abuses Warwick than he abuses it. Not his fault he is an o n hit effect champ after all so of course he'll take it for a ride. It landed in his lap, might as well make most of it. I'm not going to change how I play/ build Warwick just to not be abusive. It's still really broken on him, however. Sure Warwick as in a slump prior, this however was not the answer

Bears Dont Care3 votes

{quoted}

It's more like it abuses Warwick than he abuses it. Not his fault he is an o n hit effect champ after all so of course he'll take it for a ride. It landed in his lap, might as well make most of it. I'm not going to change how I play/ build Warwick just to not be abusive. It's still really broken on him, however. Sure Warwick as in a slump prior, this however was not the answer

Not really. Old devourer stacked better for his ult and he has no sticking power or mitigation like yi or shyvana.. Warwick is the weakest of the devourer users.

Dr Poro6 votes

Then why did his winrate rise by 3% and his popularity by 4% when sated devourer came out? Why is he the #1 winrate jungler if he's so bad?

Bears Dont Care3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Poro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wqFcKqhP,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-18T21:21:39.720+0000)

Then why did his winrate rise by 3% and his popularity by 4% when sated devourer came out? Why is he the #1 winrate jungler if he's so bad?

Popularity always grows when.a.new on hit item presents itself. It is a part of his building and so pick rate rose. as for winrate, Warwick has always sported some of the highest winrates in solo queue. He is still an awful jungler and his.pick and ban rate are also awful comparatively.

Dr Poro3 votes

"he has the highest winrate in soloQ but he's awful." Tell me, what game are you talking about? Because if he's the highest winrate jungler in soloQ, it's hard to believe that he's awful in soloQ. Of course he's bad in LCS. It's easy for a coordinated team with so much experience to counter them. Everyone knows how to do it. However, in soloQ, it's hard to actually do it.

Bears Dont Care1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Poro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wqFcKqhP,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-19T12:09:19.801+0000)

"he has the highest winrate in soloQ but he's awful." Tell me, what game are you talking about? Because if he's the highest winrate jungler in soloQ, it's hard to believe that he's awful in soloQ.

No...no it isn't. It is basic statistics. Look at his pick rate. Look at his win rate. The lower the pick rate the easier it is to skew the data for a higher winrate. Essentially, Warwick does well because he is picked so rarely, and so it is easier to give him that high winrate and then maintain it as opposed to more meta junglers who will sport a lower win rate, but much higher pickrates.

The higher the pickrate, the closer you get to the actual winrate. Even then, Warwick is an awful champion.

Let alone win rates are not accurate anyway

Of course he's bad in LCS. It's easy for a coordinated team with so much experience to counter them. Everyone knows how to do it. However, in soloQ, it's hard to actually do it.

He is bad period. "Well he is good when bad people play against him."

So what? I can beat an MMA fighter when every single one of his limbs is broken, that doesn't magically make me a pro MMA fighter. I can beat Justin Wong at UMvC3 while he is passed out in a chair, doesn't mean I am pro gamer. I can outrun Usain bolt when his legs are broken. Doesn't mean I am an Olympic athlete.

Logic. Use it. Its not hard.

l Main Renekton2 votes

Not to mention that when feral flare was a thing, Warwick was 100% pick/ban in Korea during LCK games.

Bad in LCS, yeah right. If the pros were picking and banning him in LCS then he was perfectly viable in LCS.

RickyJuice3 votes

You forgot Jax

Dr Poro1 votes

I don't think Jax is too strong atm. He was trash with the old devourer and is just viable now. Still, can you call it viable when there are so many god tiers atm? I don't see any reason to pick Jax over the ones above. His early game is weaker and his lategame similar or weaker.

RickyJuice3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Poro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wqFcKqhP,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-08-18T21:26:01.851+0000)

I don't think Jax is too strong atm. He was trash with the old devourer and is just viable now. Still, can you call it viable when there are so many god tiers atm? I don't see any reason to pick Jax over the ones above. His early game is weaker and his lategame similar or weaker.

Eh? [insert shrug picture here.jpeg]

I've never had a problem running devourer on him and crushing Udyr's up and down. I think the thing to remember isn't that one is so much more powerful than another, but the combination of how well you perform on the champ in correlation to how well it synergizes with your team. I find Jax a better team pickup in most situations compared to jungle Kayle or Udyr...and while Shyv might still be stronger technically, I can still gank without sated on Jax, and without ult.

All the champions that people compare it to are hyper reliant on getting sated + 1 items insanely quickly, and almost none of them have a reliable gap closer / stun. I can get just as fed / farmed as a Shyv on Jax by ganking and taking scuttle crabs along the way.

Maybe I'm in the wrong tier to talk, but in Silver and Gold, it's simple enough. And before this de-rails much more, I was only tossing Jax in there cause I still think he's a solid pick still.

disregardable2 votes

It'd do a lot less for Vayne.

Not Katarina1 votes

good. item 3070 Vayne

Rebonack2 votes

Start if off with the 3-and-proc effect.

Then fiddle with its base/scaling onhit magic damage to find the proper balance point for it.

Probably the easiest way to keep this thing healthy.

WiegrafOfValor2 votes

I already suggested this 5 times in other discussions, also nerf it's AS, change the base damage to 50 and sated only when 100 charges..

*UPVOTED

Lord Boltrix1 votes

I think this is why we need to limit Smite to one person per team, because it's one thing if it's the jungler taking smite, but it's another when Vayne goes top and takes smite for devourer.

Kaeblen2 votes

I've seen some people noting that a large problem with devourer is the item 3930 item 3153 interaction. I think the champion interaction is probably even bigger than this, but wouldn't a nerf to BORK help a bit too?

TotN Titan1 votes

BotRK has been an item of contention for a lot of people for a long time, long before the sated devourer came up. This just gave them more fuel to throw on that fire.

youngjake932 votes

Just nerf BORK. It's literally the whole problem.

Lord Boltrix1 votes

Well I can't imagine that the item will remain in its current state forever. LIkely, the item will be nerfed to create room for a different jungle meta in time. The Cinderhulk meta did not last too long, neither did the Runeglaive meta. The question is how do we nerf it without doing so 'into the ground.' We simply need to trim the effect so that it becomes effective without being broken.

The issue is that right now, Devourer remains powerful, a bit too much so, in that someone can ramp up the damage they have simply by building attack speed. I imagine that a simple nerf of the attack speed and magic damage would occur, but it would ruin the item in a way it doesn't have to be.

Instead of a flat-out nerf, perhaps change the item around so that one has to continue to 'stack' in the middle of battle in order to gain the full power of the item?

Rather than flatly nerfing the item overall, have the item lose 30 On-Hit Magic Damage, and reduce the proc to every 4 seconds. After that, give the item a new passive, allowing each auto-attack after the first one in a battle to add an extra 5 On-Hit Magic Damage, eventually having back to the original 60. After 4 auto-attacks including the first, you make the proc every third-auto attack. Then, after three auto-attacks, you maker the item have the two-hit proc.

Then the item simply doesn't allow you to melt the enemy team by face-rolling. Instead, the longer you remain in the battle, the more dangerous you become, and the goal becomes to survive long enough to benefit fully from Devourer.

TotN Titan1 votes

Long, drawn out fights are why it was introduced. It was actually a clear combatant for non-tank junglers to fight against a Cinderhulk to create a balance back in the jungle. Before, team-fights were lasting 20 or more seconds, where everyone was just throwing out their abilities and nobody was dying. People weren't able to get to carries and carries were busy smacking tanks all game. Devourer is there to create that burst effect on your junglers that allows you to turn your team-fights into your advantage without having to tank thousands of damage first. Cinderhulk junglers still have a lot of viability. Devourer junglers are a small niche of champions, not on overwhelming majority, that just have a unique interaction with the item.

The item isn't completely broken, but it is strong. Some lesser tier junglers have found a revival with the introduction of this item, but I think that is healthy for the overall game. More options, more build paths, more counterplay means that you don't have the same permabans as you used to in seasons past. But when people throw out that the likes of Vayne and Gnar have interactions with the item's passive, it makes me wonder what team is letting those two wander into the jungle unpunished to get their stacks? Non-junglers that are carrying smite (or worse, being used as junglers) to get Devourer stacks should be smacked around in lane, invaded into their jungles, and sent back to the fountain. That's on you and your team if you let them get out of control or build stacks in lane off of that many assists or kills because you aren't abusing them.

Tails Doll1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Boltrix,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wqFcKqhP,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-08-18T20:21:50.565+0000)

Well I can't imagine that the item will remain in its current state forever. LIkely, the item will be nerfed to create room for a different jungle meta in time. The Cinderhulk meta did not last too long, neither did the Runeglaive meta. The question is how do we nerf it without doing so 'into the ground.' We simply need to trim the effect so that it becomes effective without being broken.

The issue is that right now, Devourer remains powerful, a bit too much so, in that someone can ramp up the damage they have simply by building attack speed. I imagine that a simple nerf of the attack speed and magic damage would occur, but it would ruin the item in a way it doesn't have to be.

Instead of a flat-out nerf, perhaps change the item around so that one has to continue to 'stack' in the middle of battle in order to gain the full power of the item?

Rather than flatly nerfing the item overall, have the item lose 30 On-Hit Magic Damage, and reduce the proc to every 4 seconds. After that, give the item a new passive, allowing each auto-attack after the first one in a battle to add an extra 5 On-Hit Magic Damage, eventually having back to the original 60. After 4 auto-attacks including the first, you make the proc every third-auto attack. Then, after three auto-attacks, you maker the item have the two-hit proc.

Then the item simply doesn't allow you to melt the enemy team by face-rolling. Instead, the longer you remain in the battle, the more dangerous you become, and the goal becomes to survive long enough to benefit fully from Devourer.

There was never a RUneglaive meta, there was an Ez mid Meta, waaaayy different.

LilxPaprika1 votes

It allows him to self heal true health from passive that's pretty significant especially if enemy doesn't have much in way of ignite/reduce healing. that's 30-40 more hp healed and dealt every other hit so . its as if your at 80-100 stacks the second you sated. then you have botrk on hit as well which can on average deal like 80 dmg as well. so unless you have 120 stacks sated is usually better. (botrk can yield higher averages too during some skirmishes if you focus high hp targets, just 5% of 2500 = 125) 125 / 2(everyother hit) = 75! I'd also rather have a mixture of dmg and healing than just damage which sated helps with unlike old devourer which only dealt damage. (remember you can also sustain off botrk on hit now)

plus certainly stronger around the mid-30 min to 45 min mark once sated. arguably most important part of game.

at level 18 imo you would need somewhere around 150 stacks with old devourer which was also harder to farm with back then since start with 25 on hit.

unless maybe you're talking about the old devourer with old skirmisher smite that worked with his ult even prior to his ult being nerfed, which was clearly broken.

Byakuya Kuchiki1 votes

because the point of it applying every other auto was mainly so champs with 3 hit effects (xin gnar vayne etc. etc.)

Du Ma Mi1 votes

I think it needs to be set down a tone, but making it every three hits makes it less useful for other champions.

For example: I went AP Gnar jungle, and went sated. Having around 600 AP, this item made every two hits deal 600 bonus damage (which isn't as OP as it sounds, once I went mega, I was useless) from his E. At 3 hits per proc, it makes it basically an arbitrary item on Gnar - sure, it still deals bonus damage on the third hit, but I only liked it on him as it made his E proc every two hits. The same can be said for Twisted Fate, Ekko, and some other non-meta champions. Making it only proc on the third hit makes it so much less useful for these champions, but keeps it semi-strong for the aforementioned champions (Yi, ww, udyr, shyv, kayle, xin, etc...).

So yes, it's broken as hell on those champions, but making it a three-hit-proc is basically saying "Stick to the Meta, or you aren't going to have a good game".

blkKalameet1 votes

Well we can nurf the item, or nurf a good chunk of jungelers so that they are only good when they have sated built.

And currently the biggest problem with the item is it being on every other attack. Setting it to every 3 attacks pulls back on its burst of damage, while still letting it be useful to a lot of champions.

Id rather have the broken item nurfed than destroying these champs laning potential.

Du Ma Mi2 votes

{quoted}

Well we can nurf the item, or nurf a good chunk of jungelers so that they are only good when they have sated built.

And currently the biggest problem with the item is it being on every other attack. Setting it to every 3 attacks pulls back on its burst of damage, while still letting it be useful to a lot of champions.

Id rather have the broken item nurfed than destroying these champs laning potential.

I agree entirely. But I don't think making a 3-hit-proc is a good idea. Make it so that you have to farm to 50 stacks. Nerf BORK (because lane Vayne could use a good kick in the pants too), do whatever. But with the 3 hits, it ruins some of the champions jungling ability. And that isn't really fair.

blkKalameet1 votes

Im in favor of raising the stack requirement, but maybe to 40. It's meant to be a late game item, but it reached that power spike too quickly.

And I completely agree with a nurf to Bork. Its simply too good of an item right now. Cost effective, life steal, % health damage, good build path, attack speed and an indelibly useful active. It's purpose is to deal with people stacking health, but it offers so much that there's no reason not to build it on any champion that can use it.

Fertsa1 votes

Rammus item 3075 item 3082

ilt1 votes

yeah

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Overall the damage would remain the same, it would just take a bit longer to hit the Phantom strike. For example if say, Yi, has a BorK lets look at how many times he'll proc it with 3 hits.

Current Devourer: 8% + 16% + 8% = 32% (After 6 hits) 16% + 8% + 16% = 72% New Devourer with third hit: 8% + 8% + 16% = 32% (After 6 hits) 8% + 8% + 16% = 64%

The total on hit damage remains the same, after the first 3 hits, but the Phantom Strike is moved a bit further down the process. Prolonged battles is where this change will hit harder, due to one less proc of BorK

And it'll add a bit safer interaction with the people who use the "every third attack" (Jax, Gnar, etc). Lets use Jax as an example. (1 = first hit 3= hit that proc's bonus damage)

Current Devourer: 1, 3, 1, 3, 1, 3 New Devourer with Third hit: 1, 2,(1), 2, 3,(2), 3, 1, 3(0), 1, 2, (1)

With the new devourer, the first proc of Jax's passive would be done at the third hit, and then proceed at every 2 hit, until it restarts. The numbers in the parenthesis Is where the stacks are left off on, after the Phantom Strike procs.

How does this sound in comparison to what we currently have? Wouldn't be gutting the item, but removes a bit of strength in prolonged battles. Fighters like Udyr and Shyv already stay in the fight long enough due to their Fighter builds, so this is where it will hit most.

This was my post about making Devourer proc every 3rd strike instead of 2nd. Overall the damage would be the same, just be more spread out, instead of bursty.

Cenobite Azaziel1 votes

Proc at 3 AA? =Garbage. It would go back to the trash bin. The item already has a lot of counter play.

Poske1 votes

You have to keep in mind one thing

All champions who abuse devourer are actually easy to play and they should naturally have high winrate

Sulghunter1 votes

Sooooooooooooo...

Freelo?

Dr Poro1 votes

Note that I'm talking about plat+ scores, not just silver games. People in these leagues have the mechanical skill to play almost all champions at a decent level no matter their mechanical skill floors. Champs like Master Yi actually have an extremely high skill cap (even though the skill floor is really low).

Myrddin1 votes

top win rate jungles in order

XinZhao MonkeyKing Warwick Amumu Malphite

hmmmm k

Edit - but really that's the main problem devourer, not Kassadin 41% Ryze 42% Nidalee 42% Fiddlesticks 42%

obvious outliers, but lets deal with the jungles that are barely breaking 52% win rate, which is entirely normal variance

Dr Poro1 votes

Wukong jungle isn't even in the top 10 winrates. You obviously use lolking instead of champion.gg Lolking doesn't give nearly as much information. Champion.gg has different stats for different lanes that one champ goes into. Wukong top has a much higher winrate than jungle. (BTW it used to be the other way around when Warrior was the best enchantment). Amumu has a higher winrate in silver because of the champ design. Malphite also has a way higher winrate in toplane. Note that Riot said a while ago that their balance is based on plat+ because if you look at games below that, the sheer inconsistency of skill plays too big a factor to actually look at the balance of champs themselves.

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Jungle&sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend

Myrddin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Poro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wqFcKqhP,comment-id=000f0000,timestamp=2015-08-19T09:24:29.082+0000)

Wukong jungle isn't even in the top 10 winrates. You obviously use lolking instead of champion.gg Lolking doesn't give nearly as much information. Champion.gg has different stats for different lanes that one champ goes into. Wukong top has a much higher winrate than jungle. (BTW it used to be the other way around when Warrior was the best enchantment). Amumu has a higher winrate in silver because of the champ design. Malphite also has a way higher winrate in toplane. Note that Riot said a while ago that their balance is based on plat+ because if you look at games below that, the sheer inconsistency of skill plays too big a factor to actually look at the balance of champs themselves.

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Jungle&sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend

straight off of na.op.gg, but hey i picked diamond for the last 7 days as my sorting stick

yet again lets address the 52% win rates not the sub 43%, brilliant!

Robert Smith1 votes

This would just make yi stronger ad a result since his passive would proc it and itself allowing it to basically not affect him

Lamarson1 votes

I think devourer is a feast or famine item. you are either getting stacks (kills, assists, DRAGONS, scuttle crabs). Or, you are trying to farm your jungle while the enemy takes dragons and scuttles/ counter jungles you/ ganks your lanes. If the first happens then youre probably going to win, dev. or no dev.. In the second you probably will lose and not even get sated. So why even build dev? why not just build warriors, RG, CH and have more lane presence early.

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