Riot, you ruined Poppy for Good.

Cdore··3 votes·3,146 views

I've been playing this champ since 2010. I have spent five years learning her nuances. Her matchups. Where she is strong and where she is weak. I have theorized builds, optimized runes for her, and have planned her through every patch, from the age of Rengar to the age of tanks. I remember when the mobility meta began to pick up, making it a lot harder to catch people with her measley mobility. I then remember when more tanks started to get more power, making top lane harder to survive at to the point where you pretty much sit under turret for twenty minutes to try to farm trinity force. Then she was forced into the jungle as a more reliable role, and it was fine, but then you realized how terrible her objective taking is. So you picked her support cause now you have a more reliable way of making gold by sitting on a talisman and maybe slamming the enemy adc now and again. Whatever the case, whatever the patch, Poppy had one identity: slam and pound. Make the carry on the other team fear your presence. I spent five years learning all these and I felt like I had gotten my rewards. I still can't win games over 50% of the time in ranked cause she doesn't have an overloaded kit like the more powerful and top tier champs in this game, so it's a lot easier to punish her, but isn't that a good thing? Should I be able to have the reward of having spent so much time learning her?

And now you want to remove her from the game for an easier and more generic kit? I played with her on PBE. She's not the same champion anymore. All her identity of having deceptive tankiness has been reduced to a 40% health requirement. Her Q is not a consistent damaging ability, and isn't even guaranteed. Her wall charge is faster, thank God. But that's pretty much all it has going for it. An her ult doesn't work like her old one. People say you can just use it like you did where you try to delete so and so people from the fight. But you can't do that reliably either. It has a long channel time, is pretty obvious, and can even miss since it's basically just a ranged skillshot that anyone can see coming from a mile away, if the hammer wind up wasn't obvious enough. It doesn't enhance Poppy's damage power like it did before, so you have just given us a new champ that isn't even Poppy anymore. So you're telling me my five years of experience has just been tossed down the drain. That I learned this champ for nothing. You all took your sweet time with this rework because you knew it Poppy was a delicate thing to touch considering that the minority that played her was very adamant about keeping her playstyle. But instead of consulting to the people who played her, you just did a rework meant to appease the majority who didn't even play her. You didn't try to preserve her identity in anyway both gameplay and personality wise, and you didn't give respect to those who had come to learn it for years and years. It feels like the old Karma rework, where you guys basically gutted her kit entirely and gave her something new. At least the Soraka rework still has her identity, abeit Im sure there was a lot people angry at taking away her abilities like giving armor and mana to her allies, and taking away her mr-reducing starcall.

So all I can say is that I am disappointed that Riot did not take into consideration the feelings of vets with the character. I bought her skins and her for a specific reason, and now that reason is gone. Thank you for deleting a champion I practiced so hard to learn.

57 Comments

WoonStruck8 votes

Isn't it kind of your fault for dedicating yourself to a champion they intentionally kept non-viable until they got back to her for a rework? And they have stated this several times. Ignorance is your fault.

Dedicating yourself to learning a champ they wanted to basically delete is on you, not them. They aren't the bad guys. And now you can dedicate yourself to learning a new champ. It'll be just like that all over again. If it was as enjoyable as you're implying, you'll have a blast. :)

Sion, Karma, etc all experienced the same things, and for good reason. Poppy's decision flow-chart didn't fit into what she was designed to be.

Cdore2 votes

{quoted}

Isn't it kind of your fault for dedicating yourself to a champion they intentionally kept non-viable until they got back to her for a rework? And they have stated this several times. Ignorance is your fault.

How is this an argument, though? Are you telling me that I should have prepared to have a champion I liked deleted? That I should have stopped enjoying something because some people have a problem with her when in reality most of them are ignorant of the character because they hardly played her?

SaltyKracka4 votes

No, you should probably have prepared yourself for Riot to delete old Poppy after all the times they've said that they wanted to delete old Poppy.

Boo hoo, you learned to love the most toxic kit in the game. Learn something else.

Cdore1 votes

The most toxic kit? What is toxic even mean? Is Toxic like Tryn's ult denying you to kill him while being able to crit people to death? Is Toxic being able to zip around to any minion he wants like Yasuo, getting free crit, and being able to have a shield that negates damage every time his resource fills up? Or is it just a broad umbrella term when someone complains about something they don't like because they do not understand it?

SaltyKracka1 votes

No, it's toxic like immunity to the enemy team and towers, or magic damage that scales with AD, or a passive so powerful that it instantly renders a champ who only builds damage incredibly tanky.

There's a goddamn reason Riot has kept her nerfed to shit all this time.

Cdore1 votes

So she was a good anti carry. Too bad she still had bad waveclear, turret taking, objective taking in general, and couldn't cc entire teams. She wasn't OP or toxic. You're simply saying she was too good at her job while not realizing all the weaknesses any good player can exploit. But this isn't a game where the majority are good players, so she got gutted into a role players can discern better and not see as "toxic." What a sad term.

SaltyKracka3 votes

Immunity to the enemy team is not something that can be made up for. It literally removes the ability for 4 players to do anything about her, and no matter what way you look at it was toxic as all hell.

And for that bit about not being able to cc entire teams...what? What the fuck does that have to do with anything?

Cdore2 votes

It means Poppy sucked at teamfighting, the one standard way of helping move the game forward. Jax can jump into a team fight, cc everyone in range, and go ham on the carry. He has an immediate jump dash that doesnt rely on single targeting anyone. He can even ward jump. Imagine if Poppy could dash to a placed ward. That's not all. He has great dps burst that translates into killing baron, dragon, and turrets with relative ease. And he has magic damage, too.

It means there are champs who do her job a whole lot better. It could mean that Riot doesn't know how to balance a list of over a hundred champs in their game, and I can very well be right, but it doesn't make Poppy's ult bad. She still had to get to the other champ, and I can tell you now, if you believe you can get to Doubelift's Vayne or sneaky's corki with Poppy, you're sadly mistaken.

SaltyKracka4 votes

Ult the one with no CC, pop W, prepare to flash. Done and done.

Poppy's ult will be gone from the game, and the game will be better for it.

Cdore1 votes

Alright, let's see who to ult on the team composed of Malz, Darius, Lee Sin, Lulu, and Vayne.

Hm...oh wait, even if I ult Vayne, Lulu's ult still knocks me up and denies me a kill cause the ult acts as a result coming from Vayne so Poppy isn't immune from it.

These scenarios happen a lot where no one member on the team doesn't have CC.

WoonStruck1 votes

{quoted}

Alright, let's see who to ult on the team composed of Malz, Darius, Lee Sin, Lulu, and Vayne.

Hm...oh wait, even if I ult Vayne, Lulu's ult still knocks me up and denies me a kill cause the ult acts as a result coming from Vayne so Poppy isn't immune from it.

These scenarios happen a lot where no one member on the team doesn't have CC.

You ult malzahar because your team won't let him ult you. lol. Or you ult Lee, because he really can't ult you away, considering you shouldn't be ulting until you're in a good position to do so. That's you being bad at poppy.

Cdore1 votes

It's not about being bad at Poppy. It's about why she isn't OP in solo queue or competitive. In solo queue, you require the right coordinated team fight to get the ground to go in. Go in too early and they all swarm around each other. Go in too late, and the fights over and you won't make the fight any better since they are now pushing down a turret or two. The opportunities to go in are small in a teamfight scenario, and most of the time, you'll be playing either chase the target or ult the frontliner and hope they ignore you as you run at their carry. It's never as easy as ult and you win. Never.

WoonStruck2 votes

{quoted}

It's not about being bad at Poppy. It's about why she isn't OP in solo queue or competitive. In solo queue, you require the right coordinated team fight to get the ground to go in. Go in too early and they all swarm around each other. Go in too late, and the fights over and you won't make the fight any better since they are now pushing down a turret or two. The opportunities to go in are small in a teamfight scenario, and most of the time, you'll be playing either chase the target or ult the frontliner and hope they ignore you as you run at their carry. It's never as easy as ult and you win. Never.

She wasn't OP because her stats were undertuned on purpose. lol.

What don't you get about it. If her kit were healthy, she'd have way better base stats and values on her kit.

She was kept borderline un-playable on purpose. If they didn't realize that, they would have buffed her already, seen how broken she is, and reworked her anyway.

Ralanr2 votes
  1. Yasuo gets double crit, not free. He still has to build it.
  2. Tryndamere's ult is basically a weaker version of Poppy. I fully expect Tryndamere to be reworked at one point. He also gets free crit.

If you're gonna use a champion as an example, follow your own advice.

Cdore1 votes

And what advice is that because it seems you're throwing out generalizations that aren't being explained. Double crit is free crit, especially when rune'd for it. His kits comes with other things that make it annoying, too, but I'm not much of a Yasuo hater as the rest. I for one welcome characters like that because it means Riot can introduce stuff to make anti mobility a thing. I hope.

Tryn is a problem all around, and his ult just argments his kit that runs on basically killing anything really fast while becoming undying. Of course, he's basically like poppy or other champs where they seem too good in solo queue, but suck in a competitive environment against teams with a brain.

Ralanr3 votes

"Or is it just a broad umbrella term when someone complains about something they don't like because they do not understand it?"

Was referring to this point you made.

Also, being balanced for soloQ and team play are two different things. Just because it's not great in team play, doesn't justify it wrecking havoc in solo play.

Cdore1 votes

And what's wrong with that? Solo play isn't even important. This is a team based game. SR 5s is what's broadcast as the competitive game. Why should solo play even be important here.

Ralanr2 votes

Because not everyone wants to go up the ranked ladder or play serious on a team level. Not everyone can get a group together to play with, or communicate well with strangers.

Should the game focus on team oriented goals? Yes. Though (and this is a personal opinion) Hypercarries (which Poppy was) do not promote teamwork, especially when you have multiple on a team. Her new kit actually encourages teamwork, her old kit made her able to 1v5 enemy comps.

Personal opinion: No one should be able to 1v5 people. I know champions do that, but I really don't think people should strive for that. The carry mentality only adds to toxicity in this game.

Dark Luisito1 votes

TahmKench thats the most toxic kit in the game.

Habitz1 votes

Man if you're have this much trouble losing a champ I don't know how you'll handle life. You had fun with her that's great, now there is big change that you don't want to accept but it's happened. You gotta grieve and move on.

Cdore1 votes

Then let me grieve for a while.

Chaotic Sage4 votes

Okay, grieve not on the forums then. There's literally nothing you can do about the changes now. They're happening. Complaining about it and making points of how she wasn't OP in any way accomplishes absolutely nothing. Old Poppy is just what it implies, old Poppy. Time to make way for new poppy.

WoonStruck2 votes

{quoted}

How is this an argument, though? Are you telling me that I should have prepared to have a champion I liked deleted? That I should have stopped enjoying something because some people have a problem with her when in reality most of them are ignorant of the character because they hardly played her?

Me enjoying Irelia isn't stopping me from playing her. I know she'll be inevitably re-worked, but I also know that her kit in general is very in line with league. Just not in line with her theme in its execution.

I've accepted it and already moved on.

Me enjoying Vlad doesn't mean I haven't accepted that one day he will be re-worked into something completely different by Riot's insistence over several years that he shouldn't exist.

Me enjoying Skarner doesn't make me feel like I deserve special treatment, even though he's essentially only been reworked and nerfed to change from his original playstile since his initial surge in season 2. I pay heavy attention to the changes, but I adapt to the changes because I want to play that giant scorpion that runs people down.

If you want to charge into people and hit them with a hammer, play poppy. That's all she did before, and she does even more now! And the best part is that people won't hate you for it anymore!!!

Cdore1 votes

Yeah, she can go in with her hammer and slam people. Except, gameplay wise, she was meant to keep carries under control. That isn't her identity anymore. She's not a carry anymore. That's the one problem.

Fashion Mage1 votes

Well, I wouldn't say Karma needed to be reworked. They didn't stay true to old Karma at all either, although I don't particularly mind new Karma.

insaiyanbacca7 votes

riot's been saying for years now poppy was changing and that pretty much her entire kit was getting scrapped, not their problem you decided to main a broken unbalance-able champ that was slated for a rework.

I7A6X2v24 votes

Ruined? She wasnt even a real champion before the update.

Sukishoo3 votes

They made her amazing.

warpenguin5553 votes

Shes better now. More healthy, actually has a character. Her ult and passive were toxic af and you know it

Cdore1 votes

Being unsure of herself is the same thing as being serious and sure of herself. There's no lack of character between old and new Poppy. And her passive and ult were not toxic. Just annoying to people who never played her.

Doctor Jarvis3 votes

No, they absolutely were toxic. SEVEN SECONDS of "no, you can't hurt me, or CC me, and neither can your stupid towers nerd" is just bad for game health. I never called for Poppy nerfs because I don't think she ever needed them but her kit was stupid and she (and the game) needs them.

Sir Yamazuki3 votes

I'm confused on the part about her being easier to play now. Current poppy just presses R on the person who's less likely to stop her and kill her target... That's not exactly difficult. It is much easier to play an assassin that is immune to 4 people than to play a defensive bruiser. I also don't see what's so generic about her, her Q/W/E is basically the same and just her passive and ult are different, which isn't really used on any other champion, especially not that range.

Zyorhist2 votes

"I don't like change"

Cdore2 votes

I like change, but not in the context of completely changing a character to a different character entirely. This new kit could have just been a new champ.

chessman2 votes

I understand the frustration of having a champ you've spent so much time on being significantly reworked, but if you can break free of your own attachment for a bit I think you will be able to see that the changes are mostly for the better. Once you get over it you will be able to enjoy the game just as much as before. Just think of it as breaking up an unhealthy relationship. Things will go on, and probably be better than before.

Rocky21 votes

You have a 38% win rate with Poppy in ranked, with an average of 4.8 Kills, 4.1 Deaths, and 4.8 assists. I don't think you have learned her as well as you think. I would recommend waiting until she is released to learn playing her again. You may find you like her and do better with her.

Cdore2 votes

That winrate alone should tell you how difficult it is to carry a game against actual competent people. That's a good thing. It only supports my argument that she wasn't OP like people kept claiming, nor did she need a rework when you could just tweak her numbers and had a more suitable champ for the meta.

WoonStruck2 votes

{quoted}

That winrate alone should tell you how difficult it is to carry a game against actual competent people. That's a good thing. It only supports my argument that she wasn't OP like people kept claiming, nor did she need a rework when you could just tweak her numbers and had a more suitable champ for the meta.

The reason they didn't tweak her numbers is because her ultimate basically let your team win a fight for free once you were a threat yourself, which, due to your passive, Q, W, E, and the damage buff/mitigation on her ult, was inevitable.

That's the reason they threw her in the shitter. She was a selfish champ that synergized with herself in every possible way to let her carry. On top of that, her team followed in her wake to wipe up the left-overs.

Cdore1 votes

So, then balance the ultimate? Many people, including me, gave suggestions over the years for it. Things like:

  • restrict the damage only to ulted target
  • reduce damage that can be done to targets that aren't ulted
  • remove the damage buff entirely
  • make it so no one can hurt her, but she can still be CC'd

There were a list of them.

WoonStruck2 votes

{quoted}

So, then balance the ultimate? Many people, including me, gave suggestions over the years for it. Things like:

  • restrict the damage only to ulted target
  • reduce damage that can be done to targets that aren't ulted
  • remove the damage buff entirely
  • make it so no one can hurt her, but she can still be CC'd

There were a list of them.

*So...overlap with Olaf's theme, but you're still immune to damage.

*You'd still get a free kill on their carry (who else would you target with this change?).

*You'd STILL get a free kill on one person with no counterplay.

*Selfish Kayle ult that still overlaps with Olaf's gameplay?

Her gameplay didn't match her intended theme, balance aside.

Damage and CC immunity cannot go hand-in-hand. Its the same reason Olaf no longer gets resists while ulting. Anything else is an overlap with another champ and she STILL wouldn't have a cohesive theme.

Cdore1 votes

Except every champ has an overlap with another champ in this game. It was bound to happen in League of Over One Hundred Champs. Poppy's new Ult is just Lee Sin's ult with a larger distance. Her new ult is just alistar's knockup but the enemies are untargetable, which is actually a worse ability than the minotaurs. So you can't use ability overlap as an argument. Riot has been doing that for years.

Ravenhale1 votes

The primary complaint of most veteran Poppy players is that her kit/gameplay was that of an Assassin and now she has been reworked into a Utilty Tank/Bruiser. The same outrage would be there if this was done to Katarina or Riven.

WoonStruck3 votes

{quoted}

The primary complaint of most veteran Poppy players is that her kit/gameplay was that of an Assassin and now she has been reworked into a Utilty Tank/Bruiser. The same outrage would be there if this was done to Katarina or Riven.

Except Katarina and Riven's design screams damage.

Poppy's screams tank/fighter, not assassin, even before the lore and slight personality retcon.

Shahamut1 votes
  1. Poppy's general playstyle (pattern) will remain mostly the same. Old Poppy damage combo: Slam into wall, AA, Q, AA. You use W to get into position if necessary. New Poppy damage combo? Slam into Wall, AA, Q, AA, (Q again). Use W to get into position OR use W to prevent quick dashes away from you or into you.

Play patter wise, she has only gained options: -she occasionally gets a ranged attack followed by a shield. -Her Q is AoE now, so although it doesn't super burst with sheen prock, its more useful for clearing waves of minions, has a slow on it, and still does decent damage if you manage to hit with both damage procs.
-Her W is still a speed buff, and has passive defensive stats (12% TOTAL armor and magic resist) that doubles when below 40% hp and now has the ADDED ability to stop dashes. This is certainly a welcome ability in the league of mobility. -Her E is almost completely unchanged.

So, How has poppy been COMPLETELY ruined or changed? The ONLY things to complain about are her insane burst on Q, which is an assassin complaint (which RIOT has stated has never been her intended identity), and her Ultimate....

About her ultimate and RIOT's intended design:

Poppy was supposed to be a fighter/tank/bruiser who excelled at singling out a target. Now, her E and old ultimate TECHNICALLY did that, but her ult did it in a way that could not really be balanced, and that was not fun at all for opponents.

Not fun: Poppy could walk into a 5v5, pick the guy with the least amount of dmg or cc, ult them and then proceed to just walk past everyone and burst the adc. This is specifically not fun because it does not matter how much cc you have, poppy will ignore you. Your only option as that carry is to run far enough away that her ult runs out. At this point, its now a 4v4 but you, the carry are the one missing from your team. That of course is assuming you survived.

Not able to be balanced: So what do you do? Make her immune to damage but not cc? Poppy would not be able to get near the adc and would get stuck fighting tanks. Playing her would feel terrible. Immune to cc but not damage? If you are building the burst on her to kill the adc, you will not reach them, because you will get focused and die. Playing her would feel terrible.

Poppy's identity as a disruptor/Fighter/Tank/Bruiser that specializes in singling out a target holds true in this rework: -She still has 2 tools for isolating her target: Her E which has not changed and also her new Ultimate. -BUT WAIT! There's more! She also has her W shield now, that can help KEEP a target isolated, or keep them from escaping, or help to isolate YOU from pursuing Yasuo's and Diana's and Akali's. She has more tools for keeping people away from eachother than before.

Poppy is fine. You can miss the AA reset with Q because numbers, but at the end of the day its still a HAMMER SMASH!! Just a more versatile one, that can help you wave clear. You are welcome.

You can miss the old ULT if you just liked noob stomping people with no counter play, but at the end of the day, it had to go. It was not something that could be balanced, and it was not an ability that prompted interaction, had counterplay, or was remotely fair to anyone.

Im sorry for your hurt feelings, but you have not brought one legitimate point to the table. Next time just post something like, "I will miss old poppy, because emotion." and people will have less to argue with you about.

I hope that you will soon get over it, embrace the new poppy, and go back to smashing faces with a hammer. Cheers!

Cdore1 votes

Im sorry for your hurt feelings, but you have not brought one legitimate point to the table. Next time just post something like, "I will miss old poppy, because emotion." and people will have less to argue with you about.

Except I did give reasons and you haven't touched on any of them. You haven't been reading so you're only making generalizations.

Shahamut2 votes

If you want me to bullet point out your post so be it. But I feel I addressed your concerns:

You said: " She's not the same champion anymore. "

The bulk of my reply points out how she REALLY hasn't changed that much. When it comes to playstyle and pattern, she has only gained options. Otherwise, she plays the same for most of the game.

You said: "All her identity of having deceptive tankiness has been reduced to a 40% health requirement."

This is a perception argument, and yours is by no means the standard. I have played/watched several games where this passive was the difference between life and death. I didn't address this statement SPECIFICALLY, but I made very clear mention of the free tanky stats on W. Not only that, but your statement is incorrect because she gets free tanky stats before 40%. The bonus simply doubles at 40% health. So she will ALWAYS be tankier than what her items tell you.

You said: "Her Q is not a consistent damaging ability, and isn't even guaranteed."

I am not sure what you mean here... It consistently deals damage... in fact, aside from a slow that is all the new Q does. It does damage in a small AoE... I'd say it will deal damage pretty consistently. Not guaranteed? Pretty guaranteed when you smash them into a wall first. Outside of that, you mean it actually has counterplay and takes some forethought and skill (albeit not much)? Why then did you say this: "And now you want to remove her from the game for an** easier **and more generic kit?" Emphasis added. Did I really need to address this point?

After that is a lot about her ultimate not working like the old one... Which I addressed extensively.

I didn't specifically address your complaints of the NEW ultimate for reasons of having typed a bunch already, but here we go:

You said: " It has a long channel time, is pretty obvious, and can even miss since it's basically just a ranged skillshot that anyone can see coming from a mile away, if the hammer wind up wasn't obvious enough. It doesn't enhance Poppy's damage power like it did before"

So the new ult has: Counterplay. This is basically the entire argument you presented. No, it doesn't give her free damage buffs. It just does damage and knocks people away. OR straight up in the air. So it also has: Options.

You said: "you have just given us a new champ that isn't even Poppy anymore." You mentioned feeling that they didn't " keep her playstyle". (slight edit to last quote to make consistent with sentence)

All of that has been addressed.

I will state again: you have brought no legitimate arguments to uphold your claims that RIOT:

  1. Gave us a champion that "isn't Poppy"
  2. Didn't care about the player base
  3. Deleted a champion -or- replaced it with an easier and more generic one.
  4. Gutted Poppy.

The only statement you made that cannot be refuted is that her ult no longer works the same way. Which I happily agree with. :)

Cdore1 votes

Read the thread.

Shahamut1 votes

I have, and it seems that you have not read anything that I have said in response. That or you are simply disengaging because there is nothing for you to say.

Either way, as others have said, (including myself) in many different ways: I hope you will get over it and embrace the "new" Poppy. She is going to be strong, and she will be healthy. Gameplay wise, she should feel near identical. :)

Cdore1 votes

{quoted}

I have

Then your post doesn't mean anything.

Shahamut2 votes

care to... Elaborate that point?

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