Crowd Control Invalidates Tanks

Cdore··14 votes·2,279 views

I've been a tank player for about as long as I started playing this game, which is back in 2010 before the days of seasons and ranked. As I've played, I've watched the rise and fall of tanks. Back during my starting days, I was more of a support than anything as I tried to keep tabs on champs like Jax and TF who were running wild with absurd damage. Tanks took loads of damage, and so I was relegated to a support role. As the game evolved, damage was toned down and tankiness was increased. However, when Riven came upon the scene, the whole game was changed. Before, the only mobile champs were Jax, Shen, Tryndamere, Kassadin, and Teemo. There was on demand CC everywhere, so click CC was balanced around putting a stop to champs like that. As the game went on, everything started to become skillshots and mobility increased. In addition, each champion released was being given CC, which was originally reserved as a specialty for supports and tanks.

So let's get to the issue I'm having in regards to the above. CC is so accessible right now to every class in the game that a tank BEING CC'd makes him unable to use any of his active abilities or to do any sort of bodyguard work, especially from knockups and roots/ stuns. No matter how high you stack your tenacity, which I have achieved a minimum of 60%, CC is a nightmare, especially when stacked or knocked up. From Sion to Maokai, cc is my worst nightmare. In earlier seasons, I loved cc being thrown on me. My health didn't melt as fast and I knew I was doing my job being the frontliner for the team. These past two seasons, this is the first time that I have been playing tanks like adcs. I have to weave in and out cause I no longer have the tankiness that past seasons granted me. CC is a living nightmare cause if you're locked down for 1-2 seconds, you are dead. There is no getting around it. In fact, I'm seeing mages that have more tankiness than the traditional tanks. It is really a sad state right now for tank players.

I'm also aware that tanks are good fits in the competitive scene. So maybe my cry of tanks being meltable is just a solo queue issue. But even the pros and casters have commented that tanks fell out due explicitly cause of the weakness of tanky items and tank champions. This issue has been on my mind for years now, and I'm just needing to ask myself if tank players like myself are done in solo queue, or to hang up the mantle and choose other classes that do what we did before but easier.

22 Comments

Boltonator9 votes

Your second paragraph had something that I believe to be the true issue tanks are facing- damage is just too high right now. Crowd control, by itself, is simply used to peel threats off of your team or yourself. In teamfights crowd control is used to disable priority targets. In years past I’ve played many games where the tank was one of the last to die. Crowd control on the tank was seen as a waste yet, somewhere along the way, the spike in burst damage happened. When you add the spike damage with crowd control that even has tanks dying too quickly I can understand your frustration.

Crowd control isn’t the primary issue however, it’s the surplus of damage that is practically devouring health bars faster than Cho’gath when he uses his R.

Cdore3 votes

{quoted}

Your second paragraph had something that I believe to be the true issue tanks are facing- damage is just too high right now. Crowd control, by itself, is simply used to peel threats off of your team or yourself. In teamfights crowd control is used to disable priority targets. In years past I’ve played many games where the tank was one of the last to die. Crowd control on the tank was seen as a waste yet, somewhere along the way, the spike in burst damage happened. When you add the spike damage with crowd control that even has tanks dying too quickly I can understand your frustration.

Crowd control isn’t the primary issue however, it’s the surplus of damage that is practically devouring health bars faster than Cho’gath when he uses his R.

You're right. When I just got done typing my post, I realized the issue is that CC hasn't really changed much. But the damage definitely has rose. I wish items like Levianthan and so came back to at least help temper the storm. Riot could easily buff tanks, but they're choosing not to.

General Esdeath 3 votes

Soaking the CC means you're still doing your job, it's just that damage is so high now that tanks melt

Demolisherkz3 votes

So, I have played tanks top lane for a while. I'm glad that OP brought this topic up as tanks are not in a very good state right now. In my opinion, this is due to a couple factors. One being increased sustain (grasp, conqueror, and various skill trees that give lifesteal or healing) and two being access to true damage (especially conqueror. Its really hard to play against a conq user as a tank.) At the moment, tanks are typically picked to be ult bots, meaning that cdr is extremely important (Think of Ornn or sion. Both need abilities, but at the current moment Sion is doing well over other tanks top due to good base damage and ability range. He also has a nice passive that gives him increased damage sponging through his shield based on health.) Part of the problem is that building damage in the current state of the game scales much better than building tank stats. I don't know if this is a fact, but it feels also like tank laning power ( at least top lane) is heavily waning (in my opinion). This could be due to the current meta, but playing a tank top lane is really hard as you are countered about 80% of the time. You get attacked top lane, and if conqueror is up they WILL out trade you (unless you are massively ahead. Even then, if they have black cleaver its possible you'll lose.) As for a solution to this, I am not really sure. If they buff tank items even a little too much, we will be back to juggernauts running rampant with tank build assassins coming back, and conqueror will still pretty much destroy tanks. Fiora will become a S tier meta pick. If they buff tank base damage, it will lead to tanks having their laning improved a lot. They will have an advantage over damage dealers early as their defensive stats with decent damage will allow them to outtrade an opponent vs surviving against them, which sounds decent except people will freak out, call for nerfs, and we will come full circle. The truth is, tanks are not the massive damage sponges they used to be. You pick them mainly for their ultimates and passives. An example is Ornn in a teamfight late game comp or shen in a split push comp. In solo q top lane, it honestly seems better to just abuse Riven, Irelia, and jax. I agree with the idea of reducing damage a bit, namely access to true damage.

Soul Dealer2 votes

The problem is true damage is everywhere. If true damage was limited to a select few champions then tanks wouldn’t get melted so fast.

JuiceBoxP2 votes

Sylas must be the perfect example of what this game has becomes. A champion that has pretty much everything. Dash-shield, execute-heal, gapcloser - knockup, single target, aoe.

This champion is packed with everything

KnivingDude1 votes

{quoted}

Sylas must be the perfect example of what this game has becomes. A champion that has pretty much everything. Dash-shield, execute-heal, gapcloser - knockup, single target, aoe.

This champion is packed with everything

He could probably play the tank role better than most traditional tanks as well.

Cdore2 votes

I think the cooldown point is very important. I use to giggle back during the patch when Riot added cdr to more items. I never knew this would be the end result. Everyone can reach 40 and now 45 cdr with ease. Thresh is throwing hooks every 5 seconds. And spells are being dished out rapidly with no mana resource being wasted. No current tank can weather that kind of damage.

KnivingDude1 votes

{quoted}

I think the cooldown point is very important. I use to giggle back during the patch when Riot added cdr to more items. I never knew this would be the end result. Everyone can reach 40 and now 45 cdr with ease. Thresh is throwing hooks every 5 seconds. And spells are being dished out rapidly with no mana resource being wasted. No current tank can weather that kind of damage.

I feel like everyone wants to have 40% cool down reduction or the build is not even considered. Cool down is very accessible and easy to build, there is little reason to build items that do not have cool down reduction but have more raw stats... Actually I think it might be harder to achieve having a full build without cool down reduction at all.

Cdore2 votes

{quoted}

I feel like everyone wants to have 40% cool down reduction or the build is not even considered. Cool down is very accessible and easy to build, there is little reason to build items that do not have cool down reduction but have more raw stats... Actually I think it might be harder to achieve having a full build without cool down reduction at all.

Ironically, only tanks can go without ever building cdr cause riot didn't add cdr to ANY OF OUR CORE ITEMS.

Let me give you a common scenario as Shen or Poppy, especially when I need to get heavy stats real fast against hard hitting carries.

item 3068 item 3143 item 3047 item 3111 item 3194 item 3075 item 3193

NEITHER of these items give cdr. If I go trinity force or iceborn gauntlet, I can get 20% cdr, sure, but there's a lot of games where I have to be the raw stat tank or I will die.

item 3800 this item is the only cdr armor health option we have, but it lacks another important stat: mr. The only tank mr items we have is helm and item 3001 , and abyssal mask is not an optimal tank path save for more mage like tanks like amumu, maokai, and chogath. But even chogath wants helm. The other option we have is item 3065 BUT there's a twist with this item. Riot has been nerfing hp regen and this item also counts on you having some kind of self or ally healing. If you have neither that or good hp regen, getting this item is a waste, especially on tank income.

EDIT: I just realized Helm gives cdr, which threw me off cause it doesn't build from any cdr component.

EDIT2: Forgot about item 3083 . But again, just a massive health item and no resistances at all. I almost feel like Stoneplate should have gotten CDR. It feels like the magnum opus of tank items.

So unfortunately, tanks don't get the same benefit of high cdr like every other class's items did. I will say that the only other class that lacks cdr is adcs, whose only item is getting Essence Reaver for CDR, but then item 3071 comes into the picture. It's just a sad state of affairs for tanks right now.

Ah, I forgot item 3110 . Too bad that with all the true damage right now, having no health is a death sentence.

Ðroxx1 votes

If they are CCing you that gives the rest of your team, who does damage, to go in and finish them off. I get what you mean in your post but doesn't CC just do that to every champion, if they waste CC on the tank then your assassins and carries can just pick them off. Are you referring to the laning phase mainly or just in general? If your talking about too many champs having CC I can agree with you there. There really doesn't need to be a CC ability on every character they add into the game.

Cdore2 votes

{quoted}

If they are CCing you that gives the rest of your team, who does damage, to go in and finish them off. I get what you mean in your post but doesn't CC just do that to every champion, if they waste CC on the tank then your assassins and carries can just pick them off. Are you referring to the laning phase mainly or just in general? If your talking about too many champs having CC I can agree with you there. There really doesn't need to be a CC ability on every character they add into the game.

Mostly after laning phase and the CC being on everybody. What sucks the most is that carries are getting damage items way faster than I can build against them, so my mid game power is made obselete and late game comes so much faster, I'm dated by then. I've nearly started building support items now cause that's as useful as I can be choosing a tank, which gimps the team.

Hayaishi23 votes

{quoted}

If they are CCing you that gives the rest of your team, who does damage, to go in and finish them off. I get what you mean in your post but doesn't CC just do that to every champion, if they waste CC on the tank then your assassins and carries can just pick them off. Are you referring to the laning phase mainly or just in general? If your talking about too many champs having CC I can agree with you there. There really doesn't need to be a CC ability on every character they add into the game.

Thing is that cooldowns are not even relevant anymore. Everything runs around with 40% cdr so there is barely any waste in ccing a tank. Unless you blow up an important cooldown like Ori ult on a tank.

KnivingDude1 votes

{quoted}

Thing is that cooldowns are not even relevant anymore. Everything runs around with 40% cdr so there is barely any waste in ccing a tank. Unless you blow up an important cooldown like Ori ult on a tank.

Maybe tanks are no longer being as useful since everyone knows not to blow CC on them at this point? Perhaps it's a knowledge thing that makes them less effective?

KnivingDude1 votes

I feel like they are forcing tanks to build a bruiser or damage item at the very least to do any work. I use Rammus and I find myself building and completing Tri-force before getting a "tank" item like Thornmail... But then again Rammus was never a full-fledged tank 100% of the time like say Malphite or Braum.

IP Masquerena1 votes

The main issue I have with tanks is what they supposed to do?

I started around the end of season 5 or so, and I did saw a few "tank meta" and trust me, those are the most unhealthy ones I've played in. Yes, everything was viable because everything tanks, Vayne and Kog was irelephant, it didn't mattered what I played or did, if the tank was alive longer than the one in the enemy team, we won.

Tank items are inherently broken, even tho I do agree that damage is a little high atm, especially compared to older seasons, tanks should be viable but not meta.

If tanks should simply soak damage and be annoying, take away almost all their damage. Leave enough so they can clear, jungle and such, but not the "I can kill you but you can't kill me" bull that happens whenever a tank is meta.

I played Quinn vs Cho top not too long ago, we won, but my lane was crap. I couldn't take more than 1 of his Q without dying, get hit by a 2nd and I was dead while he was building full tank while I had my dirk, Executioner's and a last whisper and still took me 2-3 full combos to get him to half.

Currently, laning vs a tank feels worse than laning against a Darius.

DerankingInter1 votes

Actually, tanks eating CC cooldowns is often a victory condition for teamfights. Effective tanks also have their own CC and or utility or they wouldn't be picked as tanks at all.

GodlyBane1 votes

Assasins have no stuns or roots in the game. No, evelynn does not count as she is the only assasin in the game with that.

KnivingDude1 votes

{quoted}

Assasins have no stuns or roots in the game. No, evelynn does not count as she is the only assasin in the game with that.

Pyke Ekko Kayn have some form of CC. Assassins usually have means to dodge CC and skip the tanks easily like Talon Evelynn Akali Fizz while being able to accomplish their job.

They could also now assasinate the tanks with some help with their team as well since if the tank doesn't have an item or 2 yet they are still pretty squishy nowadays.

RtClick3 votes

{quoted}

Assasins have no stuns or roots in the game. No, evelynn does not count as she is the only assasin in the game with that.

Oh really, better inform Ekko, Kayne, Pyke, Shaco, Rengar, and LB. They all have hard CC if not specifically a root or stun.

GodlyBane1 votes

{quoted}

Oh really, better inform Ekko, Kayne, Pyke, Shaco, Rengar, and LB. They all have hard CC if not specifically a root or stun.

first off, red kayn isnt an assasin, nobody counts ekko as an assasin i mean he doesnt bush jump you at all, same with LB. Rengar, ok, shaco, ok. Those are the only ones i left out but you get the point most if assasins dont have hard cc

RtClick1 votes

{quoted}

first off, red kayn isnt an assasin, nobody counts ekko as an assasin i mean he doesnt bush jump you at all, same with LB. Rengar, ok, shaco, ok. Those are the only ones i left out but you get the point most if assasins dont have hard cc

ACTUALLY the general consensus is, that Ekko, Rengar, LB are considered assassins. They are included in every League assassin tier list you can find. So no I don't get your point, because the fact is plenty of assassins have hard cc.

https://tierlist.gg/assassin-tier-list https://qtoptens.com/top-10-most-fun-assassins-league-of-legends/ https://rankedboost.com/assassin-tier-list/

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