What I don't understand about conqueror...

Cdore··34 votes·14,458 views

Why make bruisers, and even juggernauts, the direct counter to tanks, when traditionally that was the adc job? Now Adcs, Juggernauts, and Bruisers (fighters) are the counter to tanks simply cause conqueror exists. This is perhaps one of the biggest balance blunders ever created. A fighter can now destroy a tank as if they are just another fighter with how little the defenses that the tank is building matter. Health is destroy and resistances lowered due to common items. I just don't get it.

How come tanks are currently the weakest class in the game? They have absolutely nothing that makes them a dependable champ compared to the rest of the classes. They do not counter anyone. And no, tanks are not meant to be counters to assassins. Teamwork is the counter to assassins. Tanks were meant to be frontliners and front-to-back disruption. Their goal was to keep the fight in control, and the consequence of this meant that assassins had a harder time jumping in on their target. Tanks were not made for assassin stopping specifically. It was just a side effect. But assassins like Zed just build item 3071 and they can shred through anyway.

So tanks counter nothing. They are unable to do their job right now. In lane Conqueror just forces you to stay away from your wave. And then you cannot farm, and as a result the rest of the game is scaling. And even if you give up lane priority, that means you leave your river and jungle open to invades, not to mention if you even decide to leave your lane once, your wave will get pushed and gooodbye turret plates. And because of the abuse of TP, the 6 min cd really shuts down top tanks that have to join teamfights frequently. It's a sad state for tanks at the moment and it seems there's no resolution coming to fix them.

86 Comments

The thigh guy30 votes

It’s entirely because riot hates tanks. They’ve been very clear with their distaste for tanks both in soloque and pro play.

Cdore6 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hsAcUBzw,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-10-10T14:46:33.682+0000)

It’s entirely because riot hates tanks. They’ve been very clear with their distaste for tanks both in soloque and pro play.

I'm aware. I saw the FAQ for worlds and the rioter specifically said that they nerfed tanks cause they wanted to keep the competitive scene more interesting to the viewership.

Velzard of Koz5 votes

Not really, they said they nerfed Tahm because he created low-lethality environment, and everyone who knows Tahm knows very well it's because of the on-demand Zhonyas, not his tankiness.

Razelth17 votes

Conqueror isn't even stronger than Grasp in lane lol. No reason for a tank to be getting pushed back in lane because of Conqueror. Tanks suck because their itemization is the worst in the game. They lack notable power spikes. Completing items pretty much just give them more stats or strengthen the passive of a component. Also, kleptomancy exists, and so long as that balanced rune is in the game first picking a tank isn't viable.

hiyares5 votes

{quoted}

Conqueror isn't even stronger than Grasp in lane lol. No reason for a tank to be getting pushed back in lane because of Conqueror. Tanks suck because their itemization is the worst in the game. They lack notable power spikes. Completing items pretty much just give them more stats or strengthen the passive of a component. Also, kleptomancy exists, and so long as that balanced rune is in the game first picking a tank isn't viable.

ummmmmmm yes yes it is. grasp is reliant on getting an auto in and has a what 20 sec cd? while conqueror is a skill tht wants an extended fight which most bruisers can force on to tanks well because Renekton Darius Riven Fiora Kayle Olaf Sylas Tryndamere Urgot Yorick Yasuo . the problem with conqueror is it does 2 things its reliable heal and free damage while ignoring resistances. then you have champs that have some sort of armor penetration built into their kit darius being the main offender having a passive 35% armor pen if i am not mistaken and then black cleaver which is another 24%. gap can only proc off of an auto conqueror can proc of everything and has no cd. fleet foot work at this point is more reliable on a tank tbh since you dont need to hit a champ just need to hit minions to get the sustain. conqueror needs to either be damage or heal not both the rune itself is flawed and it makes certain champs stronger than they should be with how quickly they can proc conq with their ability to just spam all skills in a rotation and insta proc it which vs a tank which tend to have higher cds and reliant on just short trades cant fight vs anything tht uses conqueror unless they themselves have an insane amount of sustain in their kit. but yeah in terms of the 1v1 the tank will lose all game just on how the top lane works bruiser will freeze lane and tank loses all the lane exp and gold ptting them further behind. ohh and lets keep in mind now thta conqueror is a thing something like darius which is supposed to fall off will not fall off until about 40 mins because of the heal and damage given by conqueror.

TehNACHO8 votes

Okay I realize I might be walking into a hyperbole but you do realize Grasp is on a 4 second cool down right?

Razelth4 votes

Grasp doesn't heal and do damage?

Most tanks have some sort of disengage or shield that has around the same CDs as any fighter's main ability. If a tank doesn't play around getting a grasp proc then disengaging then that's on them.

You might want to start using paragraphs. Reading that was a chore.

Moody P16 votes

Fighters have always been a counter to tanks and I don't know why we're trying to act like it was ever something different

Conqueror is such a massively overrated key stone too

Spicy Rice6 votes

Ikr? At the very least, fighters have been smashing tanks since Black Cleaver came in season 3

Z3SIeeper4 votes

Even before then Trundle existed.

Minimac20004 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hsAcUBzw,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-10-10T16:27:25.941+0000)

Fighters have always been a counter to tanks and I don't know why we're trying to act like it was ever something different

Conqueror is such a massively overrated key stone too

Agreed on the second half, but tge thing is tanks used to be able to go even in lane and get some cs against fighters, now playing a tank into anything feels like playing against teemo bc you are never allowed to go for a single cs

caseybanned12 votes

I'll be downvoted but this whole entire conqurer invalidates tanks is a big circle jerk. PTA outperforms conq in the early game (you literally see pta renek in worlds, not conq). It enables bruisers to beat tanks in the mid-late game 1v1, as they should.

The simple fact of the matter is AD carries, bruisers, mages, and assassins have all been power creeped while tanks haven't. Without conqueror most bruisers would suck.

Pumpedhero3 votes

^ this right here. Although I do disagree with the power creep a bit, I believe bruisers, mages, and assassins should get a bit of a nerf, but I believe Ads are fine since u can pop ads with anything in the game. I dont think most people realize tho that conq isn't the best option on some champs.. like Look at darius.. he doesnt even need it and it doesnt really make him Good per say, i feel theres alot better keystones than conq currently, like Aftershock, I dont know why people dont think damage mitigation on aftershock isnt broken

caseybanned3 votes

{quoted}

^ this right here. Although I do disagree with the power creep a bit, I believe bruisers, mages, and assassins should get a bit of a nerf, but I believe Ads are fine since u can pop ads with anything in the game. I dont think most people realize tho that conq isn't the best option on some champs.. like Look at darius.. he doesnt even need it and it doesnt really make him Good per say, i feel theres alot better keystones than conq currently, like Aftershock, I dont know why people dont think damage mitigation on aftershock isnt broken

IMO adcs need better defensive options. How often do you see brand on support gold 1 shotting your ad carry.

HP Crookshanks7 votes

AD assassins also counter tanks by abusing item 3071 .

Cdore7 votes

[{quoted}](name=HP Crookshanks,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hsAcUBzw,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-10-10T14:59:46.709+0000)

AD assassins also counter tanks by abusing item 3071 .

Good point. I forgot about that one. I can't forget the time a BC Zed just deleted my tank despite having armor items. He was fed, ofc, but I shouldn't pop like im a squishy adc.

Moody P7 votes

no they dont. Tanks even with armor reduction will still bodyslam an assassin in a 1v1 unless the assassin is snowballing far ahead of them

AlterMordred7 votes

But Conquerors damage early game is like 150, it starts doing its job late game

5050BS7 votes

It stems from the damage creep. Because Bruisers die too fast without some kind of constant healing.

Hayaishi26 votes

Tbh the problem for tanks IMO is that everything scales too hard.

Assassins, mages, fighters, skirmirshers all scale too god damn hard, none of them fall off enough for it to matter.

But who cares about game balance and health when all that matters is making it exciting for the pro play.

KalokasIsMyDaddy5 votes

Because they don't know what they're doing? I think it's pretty clear by now that they have no idea whats wrong with this game.

The entire team5 votes

Because Season 7 flashbacks on the tank meta made everything stupidly boring and unfun to play.

The thigh guy4 votes

[{quoted}](name=The entire team,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hsAcUBzw,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-10-10T16:19:37.179+0000)

Because Season 7 flashbacks on the tank meta made everything stupidly boring and unfun to play.

Yeah no. Season 7 was much more entertaining that this crap now.

Watching a full 30 second team fight is much more entertaining than watching a 3 second team fight like we currently do.

And it was more fun to play. It felt like choices mattered.

9/10 now you aren’t being “outplayed” you just being outchampioned.

Sewer Side1 votes

Lmao, nobody thinks Season 7 was better, stop being hysterical

PB4UAME3 votes

Season 7, the Ardent Censor ADC hypercarry meta, where nothing but botlane mattered? We talking about the same fucking game here?

the last actual tank meta (there has only been one ever) was S5 before the Juggernaut Patch.

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

Season 7, the Ardent Censor ADC hypercarry meta, where nothing but botlane mattered? We talking about the same fucking game here?

the last actual tank meta (there has only been one ever) was S5 before the Juggernaut Patch.

Season 6 and early season 7 was Tank meta also.

Iceborn Sunfire or Sunfire Visage and tanks could 1v9

Cdore4 votes

{quoted}

Season 6 and early season 7 was Tank meta also.

Iceborn Sunfire or Sunfire Visage and tanks could 1v9

Who 1v9'd better: tanks or Jax?

PB4UAME3 votes

That literally, and I mean quite literally never happened. Quit talking out your ass.

Iron Rubric2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The entire team,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hsAcUBzw,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-10-10T16:19:37.179+0000)

Because Season 7 flashbacks on the tank meta made everything stupidly boring and unfun to play.

Tank meta is widely regarded as the healthiest and most tactics based meta because everyone actually had a job in the team

ORlANNAGRANDE5 votes

Back in season 3 i used to jungle sejuani (old sej) and with 5K hp i never died. This season, anyone with 5k hp will die in 5 seconds

AccurateYeet3 votes

ADC is the weakest class in the game, but tanks suck too.

Literal IRL Tree5 votes

Is there a /s here or do you actually think adc is weak rofl

FSRER6 votes

{quoted}

ADC is the weakest class in the game, but tanks suck too.

Yeah because ADC's totally aren't able to be played in every lane possible and being able to insta win most of them (And Yes, I count Graves, Quinn and Corki as ADC champions, like they used to be and created to be)

Kendren13 votes

Tanks were never there to counter bruisers. Infact if there was no way for a bruiser to kill a tank then there would never be a reason to pick bruiser over tank. Reason being a tank is better at teamfights, and a bruiser is for split pushing. If the bruiser can't split against a tank without killing them, then they're pointless.

Also conqueror is not the difference between bruisers being able to kill a tank and not, that keystones rly not that good.

The thigh guy3 votes

{quoted}

Tanks were never there to counter bruisers. Infact if there was no way for a bruiser to kill a tank then there would never be a reason to pick bruiser over tank. Reason being a tank is better at teamfights, and a bruiser is for split pushing. If the bruiser can't split against a tank without killing them, then they're pointless.

Also conqueror is not the difference between bruisers being able to kill a tank and not, that keystones rly not that good.

Except if a bruiser forced a tank to come deal with them, then the tank lost his only advantage in being better at team fights.

boricCentaur12 votes

Um what? Tanks should always lose a 1v1 wtf that's how the game works are you new or something?

Adcs counter them since they kill them the fastest in a team fight and conqueror changes nothing about that.

Also everything you said about tanks is just wrong and sounds like you don't play them at all.

Zed can't do shit vs most tanks and if you think he can you clearly don't play.

Yeah you don't get it since you don't play them.

Cdore2 votes

{quoted}

Um what? Tanks should always lose a 1v1 wtf that's how the game works are you new or something?

Adcs counter them since they kill them the fastest in a team fight and conqueror changes nothing about that.

Also everything you said about tanks is just wrong and sounds like you don't play them at all.

Zed can't do shit vs most tanks and if you think he can you clearly don't play.

Yeah you don't get it since you don't play them.

You are putting everything into context of the tank trying to win a 1v1 by killing the other, which never happens. Even back in tank meta, you didn't lose unless you stuck around trying to go on a killing spree. Most tanks couldn't kill anyone, and most likely the offenders were off tanks who had overtuned damage. A malphite, sion, Poppy, etc could not kill anyone on their own unless the person stuck around for too long. a Lucian could easily walk away from any tank while kiting him with autos. Same for about any adc. These cases where tanks were 1v1ing is overblown, when you have champs like Riven, Jax, Irelia, Camille, and other fighters 1v5ing teams with just one trinity force, and for some reason players ALWAYS ignore their presence.

Daddy Ants2 votes

Assassin's and Mages should not be shredding tanks.

Marksmen and Fighters on the other hand should be direct counters to tanks.

Sustained damage is counter to tanks.

Pika Fox2 votes

Its because bruisers lack staying power, and its either give them more durability, or allow them to do more to the targets they have the easiest access to.

Giving them more durability treads on the tanks job. Giving them more damage later into a fight against tankier opponents is generally fine.

Also, the ADCs job isnt necessarily to kill tanks, its primarily to kill objectives.

Cdore2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hsAcUBzw,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2019-10-10T20:24:18.857+0000)

Its because bruisers lack staying power, and its either give them more durability, or allow them to do more to the targets they have the easiest access to.

Giving them more durability treads on the tanks job. Giving them more damage later into a fight against tankier opponents is generally fine.

Also, the ADCs job isnt necessarily to kill tanks, its primarily to kill objectives.

From a game design standpoint, bruisers should always be the weaker class. Their design alone is based on getting the fun now before the game reaches its apex. If you want a strong bruiser design in a game, you have to have an equal "anti killing" force, such as strong healing options and shielding options to combat bruisers. This way bruisers can still do big damage plays like they want, but also cant just delete someone by flashing, stun, aoe damage in a teamfight like Jax or Riven like to do, one of the biggest offenders.

They're strong right now because it's good for business, not for because the game asks it so. If any of the designers at Riot wanted to balance it right now, they would keep tanks as the defacto bodyguards and conqueror wouldn't exist. Tank items would also be buffed right now. There's many ways to curve this, but atm bruisers absolutely dominate over tanks in every way.

Pika Fox2 votes

{quoted}

From a game design standpoint, bruisers should always be the weaker class. Their design alone is based on getting the fun now before the game reaches its apex. If you want a strong bruiser design in a game, you have to have an equal "anti killing" force, such as strong healing options and shielding options to combat bruisers. This way bruisers can still do big damage plays like they want, but also cant just delete someone by flashing, stun, aoe damage in a teamfight like Jax or Riven like to do, one of the biggest offenders.

They're strong right now because it's good for business, not for because the game asks it so. If any of the designers at Riot wanted to balance it right now, they would keep tanks as the defacto bodyguards and conqueror wouldn't exist. Tank items would also be buffed right now. There's many ways to curve this, but atm bruisers absolutely dominate over tanks in every way.

Theyee only strong in disorganized play. Theyre really not that strong overall. Just hit them with a CC and theyll fall in short order, because while theyre durable, theyre not that durable.

Juggernauts are the more durable versions, but they lack sticking power and engage power.

Tank items dont need buffs, if anything most need nerfs. Theyre by far the better options. Damage is bad in LoL, which is why almost everyone builds tanky and has one single archtype designed to kill objectives.

Cdore1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hsAcUBzw,comment-id=001000000000,timestamp=2019-10-10T20:32:39.825+0000)

Theyee only strong in disorganized play. Theyre really not that strong overall. Just hit them with a CC and theyll fall in short order, because while theyre durable, theyre not that durable.

Juggernauts are the more durable versions, but they lack sticking power and engage power.

Juggernauts are still just as much of a problem simply cause of their synergy with the top runes and items. Sion is the most balanced one, skarner is the weakest one, and Nasus is the wildcard one. I call juggernauts fighters with a tending toward damage, but items like Phage and ghost make sticking to enemies a lot easier. For instance, try getting away from a Darius who W's you, which slows you, then activates ghost, and has phage. If your flash isn't up or he has flash up, you're dead.

Pika Fox3 votes

{quoted}

Juggernauts are still just as much of a problem simply cause of their synergy with the top runes and items. Sion is the most balanced one, skarner is the weakest one, and Nasus is the wildcard one. I call juggernauts fighters with a tending toward damage, but items like Phage and ghost make sticking to enemies a lot easier. For instance, try getting away from a Darius who W's you, which slows you, then activates ghost, and has phage. If your flash isn't up or he has flash up, you're dead.

Ok, try being a darius and trying to get in range to do literally any of that. Youre dead.

Thats literally the point. Theyre immobile.

Yets42402 votes

What the actual fuck are you on about? Actually look at what people are building, its 99/100 times pure damage, and nothing even close to a defensive or tanky build. Everyone builds damage, and runs around like chickens with their heads cut off looking to 100-0 instaburst whomever comes in range or is hit by a single CC.

Pika Fox2 votes

{quoted}

What the actual fuck are you on about? Actually look at what people are building, its 99/100 times pure damage, and nothing even close to a defensive or tanky build. Everyone builds damage, and runs around like chickens with their heads cut off looking to 100-0 instaburst whomever comes in range or is hit by a single CC.

Yeah, thats not a thing in coordinated play. If youre not an adc or an assassin (and assassins arent in even 50% of games), you cannot afford to build more than one pure offensive item. You do 0DPS if youre dead, and theres enough CC where even if youre ahead, youll die instantly if youre caught out with no defenses.

Sire Hippington2 votes

As much as i hate conqueror and the state of tanks, BUT bruisers ALWAYS have been counters to tanks. The difference is in how they countered them Back in the day, bruisers had the sustaiend damage to take them down, while haveing tankiness/sustain them self so the low dps from tanks would be mostly ignored. This allowed them to easily win in the sidelane or clean them up at the end of a teamfight. However, they were vulnerable to backline dps if locked down by the tank, so in a direct teamfight the tank would have the upper hand, and while they won the long fights against them, they did need their time to do so. Now Bruisers just pop tanks if they are fed while have enough utillity to basically do a tanks job with more threat on the backline, and tanks no longer really live longer against the opposing backline, so bruiser now not only counter tanks in the sidelane and in cleanup fights, but also are on pair if not superior at full teamfights. Also, they reach the critical mass to take over sidelanes alot faster than in days of old...

Also, i wouldn't call adc a direct counter to tanks, things are a bit more complex. Yes, adc are the highest dps and thus most dangerous. But they also tend to be glasscannons and their dps drops alot if they get disrupted. I rarlly lost 1v1 as a tank vs adc unless he had a clear lead on me. It's all about the dynamocs in teamfights. If the tank has to use his combo on another target, the adc can free hit and melt, but if the tank can keep his CDs up, the ADC has to be very carefull to not get his ass locked down paired with some solid damage. Playing adc in S2, i usualy was more afraid of a maokai walking at me than a Xin. Xin i could disengage and kite with most champs i played, Mao woul lock me down and then his team would follow up and blow me up. Sure, alone he was less of a threat then xin, but that is rather irelevant most of the time.

again, i do agree that tanks are in a horrible spot atm, and conqueror sure doesn't make things better, but bruisers always have been counters to tanks in a way, and while adc usually are what takes down tanks, i wouldn't see them as strict counters as they are also quite vulnerable to the CC+burst that tanks can provide.

Daddy Ants1 votes

[deleted]

Cdore2 votes

{quoted}

How it's meant to be is

Tanks counter Assassin's and Mages.

ADC's and Fighters counter Tanks.

Mages/Assassin's counter ADC's.

Tanks are meant to counter solo play. They don't exist to counter any one class. They are the bodyguards and the leaders of a teamfight. Their role is to keep the other team from doing what they want. Adcs are there as siegers. That was their class during season 0, and even during the DOTA days. Fighters are hybrids who are meant to be early game duelers but late game they should fall off. Mages exist to offer utility and ranged damage options. They don't operate on auto attacks, so they exist more for support/ range artillery like gameplay. Assassins are there to take advantage in gaps of teamwork. If a carry ignorantly leaves safety of vision or his team, assassins exist to punish him. He should not be able to ult into the middle of a team like Zed, do rotations, then blink out.

Riot has broken a lot of balance fundamentals for the sake of business. That is why we are in the broken mess that we are.

Serika Zero1 votes

What I don't understand about conqueror bitching is: At best, current conqueror converts 10% of your damage in true damage and heals you.

That's still fucking 90% damaged which tanks can reduce with their resistances.

Conqueror just let's you eventually be able to kill tanks if they don't fight back and not end up doing fucking negative damage to them. But it doesn't counter tanks.....

Cdore2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hsAcUBzw,comment-id=001c,timestamp=2019-10-11T12:09:15.504+0000)

What I don't understand about conqueror bitching is: At best, current conqueror converts 10% of your damage in true damage and heals you.

That's still fucking 90% damaged which tanks can reduce with their resistances.

Conqueror just let's you eventually be able to kill tanks if they don't fight back and not end up doing fucking negative damage to them. But it doesn't counter tanks.....

Resistances don't exist right now. Damage reduction is a more valuable defensive feature these days. Sustain, too. Like heavy lifesteal or great shields.

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