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@Meddler, I really hope you're going to be taking a look at Morde when you start working on Rylais

Malicious Metal·Sep 12, 2016·54 votes·7,821 views

Because he might just be the only champion who relies 100% on this particular item to succeed. It's his only core item and while Morde builds may differ they all have this one thing in common.

Having abysmally low base MS, health and resistances makes him extremely susceptible to kiting and getting his three Q's off is what he relies on in order to succeed. Tampering with this item will totally turn his balance upside down and seeing that he's in a solid spot right now makes me kinda scared of what will happen to him once preseason hits.

So if you're going to make it less desirable on him please give him the Illaoi treatment and mini-rework him to work without rylais.

But if it's going to be shifted into less damage and more utility like you mentioned everything's going to be fine and dandy. I just hate how one item holds him hostage in his current state, though I really like the slows on a thematic standpoint (He's like The King of the Wild Hunt or Arthas with his affiliation to slows and the cold grip of death)

Anyways, I just don't want Mordekaiser to suffer, he's been through enough.

121 Comments

RiotMeddlerSep 12, 201618 votes

Plan is to figure out what Rylai's should be like to be healthier for the game as a whole and then to look at whether that means we should make any compensatory changes to individual champions who are either heavily reliant on its current form or who would benefit dramatically from its new form.

adidasSep 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Plan is to figure out what Rylai's should be like to be healthier for the game as a whole and then to look at whether that means we should make any compensatory changes to individual champions who are either heavily reliant on its current form or who would benefit dramatically from its new form.

Meddler may i ask, From my encounters with mordekaiser i find him extremely overpowered / oppressive. Especially in lane.

I dont know if its just me but would changing rylais make it hard to balance / compensate morde?

Malicious MetalSep 13, 20164 votes

How is he any more overpowered/oppressive than Darius?

adidasSep 13, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wg0nPwEZ,comment-id=000d00020000,timestamp=2016-09-13T00:21:45.295+0000)

How is he any more overpowered/oppressive than Darius?

I dont mind morde. But lets be honest hes not really much of a counterplay dude in lane.

Malicious MetalSep 13, 201612 votes

Outsustain him? Poke? Outrange? Bully fue to his low base armor? camp? Kite?

He's on the more annoying side, yes, but there are far worse champions

Auz the RipperSep 13, 20161 votes

well, I'd argue most of those are counters rather than counterplay.

not saying there's anything wrong with that either; it's a team game, you're not supposed to win every 1v1.

Malicious MetalSep 13, 20161 votes

Counterplay -Don't let him get close

Easy enough with mobility, slows and everything in between currently in the game^ ^

THE RlVER KlNGSep 13, 20161 votes

That's not counterplay to the dozens of melee champions in the game.

adidasSep 13, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wg0nPwEZ,comment-id=000d000200000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-09-13T01:49:25.250+0000)

Counterplay -Don't let him get close

Easy enough with mobility, slows and everything in between currently in the game^ ^

Yeah there are melee champs in the game that have to cs too bud :X

ArthimetesSep 13, 201610 votes

I find it funny that a WALKING SUIT OF ARMOR has such shit armor values.

YumaS2AstralSep 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I find it funny that a WALKING SUIT OF ARMOR has such shit armor values.

He has some of the lowest base stats in the entire game

Except his base AD which is actually the highest in the game

But it is honestly not much of an deal, since item 3078 is not commonly built on him, and he is most of time built AP anyway.

GULAG 4 USep 13, 20161 votes

It's a good item though.

KetiSep 13, 20161 votes

Mostly just camp. Any morde pick is basically just begging to get camped and die repeatedly.

JoseraphSep 14, 20161 votes

Someone's never ganked a Morde, got blown up, and gave him double kill due to Children of the Grave

KetiSep 14, 20161 votes

Nope, because more should have died at least once before he can hit 6

adidasSep 13, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wg0nPwEZ,comment-id=000d0002000000000001,timestamp=2016-09-13T00:53:56.868+0000)

Outsustain him? Poke? Outrange? Bully fue to his low base armor? camp? Kite?

He's on the more annoying side, yes, but there are far worse champions

Doesnt kite/ poke/ outrange/bully fue to his low base armor

All mean the same thing ;X....

Tychusfindlay919Sep 13, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wg0nPwEZ,comment-id=000d00020000,timestamp=2016-09-13T00:21:45.295+0000)

How is he any more overpowered/oppressive than Darius?

The idea of mordekaiser being more oppressive in lane than Darius LUL. Except in certain matchups like Riven I'm sure he actually is. Riven is such a volatile matchup for new darius.

Gosh DarnSep 13, 20162 votes

You're playing poor matchups or your team isn't playing right. Morde has the lowest hp of any melee champion in the entire game and no inherent CC or escape with 325 MS. You have to sit there and let him kill you or allow him to get rylai's for him to do anything impressive.

Malicious MetalSep 13, 20168 votes

And even then the most flashy and unpredictable thing he can do is a flash->Q combo.

Just like any Juggernaut his agenda's obvious. Run at the enemy and try to kill them or hope they're stupid enough to ignore you in teamfights and maul them to death.

Stars ShaperSep 12, 20163 votes

Nice to know.

Anyway AP champions seem to suffer from a lack of diversity in itemization because AP support items aren't really appealing for pure AP damage dealers and AP tanky heroes. Have you considered to creat a sort-of AP version of: item 3053 and item 3748 ? (Not with the same effects but more items intended for AP "Bruisers" champions.

AlistarMilkingSep 12, 20165 votes

Please pay extra attention to AurelionSol , his whole kit relies on that item to be able to keep enemies in his zone!

TheSingularitySep 13, 20162 votes

Which shouldn't be the case. Give him a scaling slow based on level that by say lvl 11 is as strong as rylais rendering it a useless item

redfeenixSep 13, 20162 votes

Exactly. No item should be mandatory on any champ

Raid Boss MordeSep 13, 20161 votes

Can I suggest a slow on Morde's first Q? If Rylai's does get heavy changes, this could help quite a lot of him.

Malicious MetalSep 13, 20162 votes

I would actually prefer a MS leech on his E.

It's a siphon after all :^)

DrCyanideSep 13, 20161 votes

What's the chance of AP Items in general being re-looked at? Right now AP Items feel a bit too "by the book".

You pick your Mana item (with many champions heavily favoring one) item 3165 item 3027 item 3003

You pick your (second) big AP item (since the mana items provide a lot of AP on their own) item 3285 item 3116 item 3089

You pick up your defensive item item 3001 item 3157

You pick up your penetration item 3135 and item 3020 ( item 3151 is only really an option if you got item 3116 earlier)

And you fill in the gaps with either a specialty item or another big AP item item 3100 item 3115 item 3152 item 3198

There's really not a whole lot of customization, the whole process feels more "solved" than Runes or Masteries.

RamRanchDressingSep 14, 20161 votes

You should almost never buy Deathcap second

themachampSep 13, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Plan is to figure out what Rylai's should be like to be healthier for the game as a whole and then to look at whether that means we should make any compensatory changes to individual champions who are either heavily reliant on its current form or who would benefit dramatically from its new form.

please keep singed in mind! Singed

redfeenixSep 13, 20161 votes

Heres my suggestion: reduce the perma slow nature of it by making Rylais an activatable item.

Rylais Crystal Sceptre:

item 3114 + item 3136 + item 3096 +800 gold

Active: for the next 10 seconds, your spells apply a 50% slow (90 second cooldown).

Niche support item, and they can activate it to suddenly peel or engage better. Perhaps give it a passive abilitiy as well: Increase all mana costs by 10%.

So this item has definate trade offs.

MordepoolSep 14, 20161 votes

You realize the point of rylias is to have an no mana AP item.

redfeenixSep 14, 20161 votes

I was talking more about the active, why dont you suggest some alternative item build path

MordepoolSep 14, 20161 votes

That wasnt very clear from your post

redfeenixSep 14, 20161 votes

Yeh I just literally picked random items to make rylais.

So what did you think about the active component of the scepter?

MordepoolSep 14, 20161 votes

I think its not as big a deal as alot of people say and that most abuses of the item come from champions who already have slows. Frankly slows and cc across the board need a nerf

Star PlatinumELOSep 14, 20161 votes

I remember when the DFG was removed and you compensated Veigar by gutting his E for a whole patch, I don't want to see a repeat of that, good luck with the pre-season btw.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 12, 20169 votes

Why not give mordekaiser legitimate base stats like every other god damn juggernaut in this game?

I can understand maybe a little less base hp, like 1900 at level 18 or something due to passive, but ugh.

Count ZubatSep 12, 20165 votes

Base armor is even more of a joke...

RalanrSep 12, 20164 votes

My theory is that doing so would make Mordekaiser more of a threat early game and they want his power spike to be mid-late game.

I could be wrong though.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 12, 201610 votes

{quoted}

My theory is that doing so would make Mordekaiser more of a threat early game and they want his power spike to be mid-late game.

I could be wrong though.

The archetypical juggernaut design is conditional, not game-phase oriented.

Juggernaut gets in your face, shit hurts and its hard to take juggy down.

There are variations of course, like nasus, who is tanky but requires stacks (and therefor a later game phase) before he gets his damage and tank on.

Arguably the best design is darius. His strength doesn't stand in any particular game phase, it stands in him getting into people's faces to get his five stacks going. His base stats and the nature of his abilities reflect his desire to want to do this. Morde operates similar to darius, he wants to get in people's faces and stay there long enough to get his Q going. Morde's problem is that hes squishy af even with his shield.

I'll take you to a full build darius and a full build morde and most of the time people would rather want to face morde.

Also when people say they want morde to have better bases they usually mean better growth.

PermabannedGarenSep 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Why not give mordekaiser legitimate base stats like every other god damn juggernaut in this game?

I can understand maybe a little less base hp, like 1900 at level 18 or something due to passive, but ugh.

Because a Mordekaiser who built tanky is legitimately the single tankiest champion in the game, to an unreal extent, and he pretty much automatically dumpsters any melee champion who has to interact with him except probably Darius and maybe Illaoi.

If he also had good bases he'd be impossibly oppressive against melee champions.

Like, I don't think you really appreciate how incredibly tanky Mordekaiser's passive makes him. There is a reason that despite being a close-range juggernaut who is forced to take heavy damage throughout fights that he has, on average, the single lowest average damage taken for a top laner.

Imagine if people stopped building him heavily AP-focused like smart people.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Because a Mordekaiser who built tanky is legitimately the single tankiest champion in the game, to an unreal extent, and he pretty much automatically dumpsters any melee champion who has to interact with him except probably Darius and maybe Illaoi.

If he also had good bases he'd be impossibly oppressive against melee champions.

Like, I don't think you really appreciate how incredibly tanky Mordekaiser's passive makes him. There is a reason that despite being a close-range juggernaut who is forced to take heavy damage throughout fights that he has, on average, the single lowest average damage taken for a top laner.

Imagine if people stopped building him heavily AP-focused like smart people.

The tankier you build morde the harder it is to generate his shield. With the exception of his E, his shield converts magic damage he does by percent to shield.he should punish most melees, so many other juggernauts punish melee champions like darius and trundle. By virtue of what a juggernaut is, he is bound to punish melees. It's all part of what counterpicking entails. Better base growths wont make him delete all melee champs. Certain mobile melees can still get the better of many juggs, riven being the main offender.

PermabannedGarenSep 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

The tankier you build morde the harder it is to generate his shield.

And the tankier you build Morde the harder it is to crack his shield. The fact that his E lets him generate shield regardless of his damage means that in the shield game a tanky Mordekaiser is easily coming ahead.

With the exception of his E, his shield converts magic damage he does by percent to shield.

Right, which is why a tanky Mordekaiser is better.

If you hit four enemy champions with a shield that's 100% shield right there.

he should punish most melees, so many other juggernauts punish melee champions like darius and trundle.

He already does punish melees, despite his awful base stats.

By virtue of what a juggernaut is, he is bound to punish melees. It's all part of what counterpicking entails. Better base growths wont make him delete all melee champs. Certain mobile melees can still get the better of many juggs, riven being the main offender.

And Mordekaiser already shits on Riven.

Mordekaiser easily wins sustained trades with melee champions due to his W and Q, and he can't be wittled down by brief trades due to his shield.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 12, 20163 votes

{quoted}

And the tankier you build Morde the harder it is to crack his shield. The fact that his E lets him generate shield regardless of his damage means that in the shield game a tanky Mordekaiser is easily coming ahead.

Right, which is why a tanky Mordekaiser is better.

If you hit four enemy champions with a shield that's 100% shield right there.

He already does punish melees, despite his awful base stats.

And Mordekaiser already shits on Riven.

Mordekaiser easily wins sustained trades with melee champions due to his W and Q, and he can't be wittled down by brief trades due to his shield.

If the enemy team allows morde E to hit 4 champs he deserves full shield regardless. It's as foolish as allowing darius to get a three man decimate heal.

Not harder to crack morde shield since it naturally loses itself quickly out of combat, he thrives in sustained fights like darius.

His stat growth is shit.

I didnt say riven fucked mordekaiser, only making a point that other melees can get the better of juggs.

PermabannedGarenSep 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If the enemy team allows morde E to hit 4 champs he deserves full shield regardless. It's as foolish as allowing darius to get a three man decimate heal.

Frankly he doesn't need to hit four champs. Two or three is fine. The rest of his abilities will generate it.

Not harder to crack morde shield since it naturally loses itself quickly out of combat, he thrives in sustained fights like darius.

Go on?

Out of combat Mordekaiser doesn't need to be tanky. Because no one is attacking him.

His stat growth is shit.

Good. Let's keep it that way.

I didnt say riven fucked mordekaiser, only making a point that other melees can get the better of juggs.

What non-juggernaut gets the better of Mordekaiser in lane (I'm specifying in lane because I'm reasonably sure champions like Tryndamere, Jax, Nasus, or Master Yi can duel him late game).

Tychusfindlay919Sep 12, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Frankly he doesn't need to hit four champs. Two or three is fine. The rest of his abilities will generate it.

Go on?

Out of combat Mordekaiser doesn't need to be tanky. Because no one is attacking him.

Good. Let's keep it that way.

What non-juggernaut gets the better of Mordekaiser in lane (I'm specifying in lane because I'm reasonably sure champions like Tryndamere, Jax, Nasus, or Master Yi can duel him late game).

Renekton can get the better of mordekaiser early game since the shield can't nullify his entire combo, especially if its an above 50 rage combo. Pantheon can also do well if he manages his blocks well for the morde Q.

Morde will outscale both of them but lane phase is relatively in their favor.

Nasus is a juggernaut by the way, and doesn't struggle to hard against mordekaiser since wither fucks up Morde's ability to lay down the Qs.

Also when I say out of combat I mean his shield decays after 1.5 seconds, which is hardly out of combat. It's short enough for on-and-off fights to really throw mordekaiser off since it's hard for him to heal poke that gets through his shield back up.

Raid Boss MordeSep 13, 20161 votes

There are many champions who beat Mordekaiser in lane.

Irelia, Fiora, Quinn, Graves, Jayce, Jax, Tryndamere, Renekton, Pantheon, and if you wanna talk about Juggernauts, Nasus, Trundle, Olaf, and sometimes Darius.

PermabannedGarenSep 13, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Raid Boss Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wg0nPwEZ,comment-id=0001000300000000000000000001,timestamp=2016-09-13T02:38:40.131+0000)

There are many champions who beat Mordekaiser in lane.

Irelia, Fiora, Quinn, Graves, Jayce, Jax, Tryndamere, Renekton, Pantheon, and if you wanna talk about Juggernauts, Nasus, Trundle, Olaf, and sometimes Darius.

First of all, I already acknowledged that ranged champions can handle him.

Second of all, I frankly don't believe you. You can't sell the idea that Jax beats Mordekaiser in lane to me lol.

Though yeah I guess a Tryndamere who has studied calculus could beat him.

Raid Boss MordeSep 13, 20161 votes

Jax completely destroys Mordekaiser in lane. His E negates Morde's Q hits, and if he stuns him, then you won't have enough time to auto before your Q wears off. he also outscales him hard.

Tryndamere beats Mordekaiser early because of crits. Also, at 6... there's not much you can do. CC wrecks Trynd, something Morde doesn't have.

PermabannedGarenSep 13, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Raid Boss Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wg0nPwEZ,comment-id=000100030000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-09-13T04:12:43.154+0000)

Jax completely destroys Mordekaiser in lane. His E negates Morde's Q hits, and if he stuns him, then you won't have enough time to auto before your Q wears off. he also outscales him hard.

It doesn't negate E or W, which is Mordekaiser's main harass in lane. Mordekaiser can hit Jax with those with little counterplay on Jax's part. Only use Q when Jax has already used his E. It's not like he will be doing much damage to you through your shield early on. Max W obviously.

Raid Boss MordeSep 13, 20162 votes

Morde's main damage in trades is his Q though, which Jax negates. If you ever have had this matchup, you would know it's in the favor of Jax. Getting near Jax early or after Trinity is a death sentence.

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