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Can we do something about pubstomp champions?

Inari Fox Orrion··12 votes·2,526 views

Long post. Reader beware.

Champions that are extremely good in SoloQ but get worse and worse as you rise in rank? Yes, I'm talking BlitzcrankDariusGravesLeeSinMasterYiShacoYasuo Champions who make SoloQ extremely frustrating to play because, even when they don't get fed off of you, they get fed off of allies (or enemies) that don't really know how they function and are countered.

Personally, I have no issues with everyone sans Graves and Lee; Blitzcrank Just stand behind minions and keep the bush/es warded, and if he rushes at you just circle around the wave or make sudden erratic movements. Darius Slows work perfectly in making him the most useless champion around, even if you are melee too! He's also useless in teamfights. Graves 2.7k from basic attacks. LeeSin QQEEQRQ dead MasterYi Don't feed him and he becomes a walking item 2010. Shaco Control ward. Done. Possibly dead, too. Yasuo Just focus him, even if he is a pain in the ass to lane against with an answer for everything you toss at him.

But here's the thing: plenty people in Bronze/Silver do have problems with countering said champions, which are why these champions are so common there. They take your personal agency in the match away, because you can't have all of the tools ever needed to make pubstompers useless because you aren't five people. It's not healthy design.

I'm not suggesting complete overhauls of these champions, but it'd be nice and, hell, healthier for the game in general if they weren't so incredibly powerful at low-rank play, but then drop like a rock as you climb in ranks. It's stupid, especially if you happen to like playing as any number of these champions in non-Silver.

(I posted this a while ago twice, but both times an interesting and fairly hypocritical troll under some specific syndrome constantly argued, missed the point, ad-hominem etc. etc. so, I posted it again in a clearer manner, having mostly condensed the point!) (Please, actual discussion and not "OMG U SUK NOOB." These champions have never been fed, once, by me sans maybe Graves.)

35 Comments

MissingKayo6 votes

The very nature of those champions makes it hard to change them from being pubstompers without completely destroying what makes them them.

But I think it's fine honestly. People who are good at those champions can still do well in higher ELOs if they pick them into good or confident matchups or have good team coordination. And the tradeoff is obviously the more clear and easier ways to hard counterplay them given their enormous potential strength.

Inari Fox Orrion3 votes

But then isn't the champion innately the antithesis to what Riot wants their game to be?

I've always disliked pubstomper-types because I'm not able to do all we need to counter them because of their very nature, despite them being one single person as I am.

MissingKayo2 votes

That's the point. League is a teamgame. Certain champions need coordination to take down.

Inari Fox Orrion7 votes

But then that's... it's like giving whichever team has Yasuo an extra crutch the other team doesn't have because they don't have a pubstomper.

Plus, if it's a team game, why the hell is one person going 0/21 able to fuck it up so hard for the rest of us to the point that even if we played at our (Bronze3 or SIlver5 or whatever) best, we'd be unable to win because of that one laner? And those champions, these champions, enable that.

It's also not really fun for a MasterYi or Yasuo player to have to roleplay as a item 2010 if your team has any semblance of a clue.

MissingKayo5 votes

Because if you know how to coordinate or even just something as simple as counterplay or counterbuild, then they fall apart? Darius for example. He can shred entire teams easily if they don't know what to do.

If anyone bothers to just CC him/lock him down, or kite from range, or get something like Lord Dominik's to shred through his armor and health, or puts Grievous Wounds on him to reduce his healing by an entire 40%, handling him becomes much easier. And if all of those are combined, he falls apart because those would be a collection of his hardest counters.

Also, his healing is only on his Q, meaning if you dodge that slow skillshot, then he suddenly loses his massive heal potential (12% missing per champion hit, up to 60% missing from 1 Q).

If you know how to do it, even a 1v1 could work. For example, an ADC could just continually kite him while staying out of his range. And if Darius didn't stop trying to chase and didn't run instead, he'd eventually die.

The thing is they aren't terrible because not all of the hard counters will ever be together. But there will always be enough on any intelligent team to handle a champion like him and at least make him manageable.

Because to put it frankly, you're bad. And your team is bad. If you don't know how to play against a champion, then why should you be rewarded with beating them? Also, the biggest issue is most low ELO teams don't usually have enough hard CC on their team in the first place to lock down champions like Darius, Master Yi, Illaoi, etcetera. Which isn't common in any higher ELO.

Inari Fox Orrion4 votes

Yeah, but that's my point. The champion is meant to stomp your team, even if not you, for not doing one specific thing even when you are the mofo telling them that "Yeah maybe you could, I don't know, focus Yi? He doesn't vanish from the game entirely when he Q's as he'd have you believe."

I'm well aware I'm bad, but again, it's not me having issues with fighting Yi or the other sorts of champions who are designed to punish mistakes that people keep on making, and THEN proceed to steamroll over your team because one person kept on making a mistake.

My issue with these champions are that they're designed to make the low-rank/newbie experience worse when fighting them, and to be a free crutch when you're otherwise lucky and have them on your team.

It isn't just reserved for the enemy team, as I said - I feel cheated out of a good fight when Yi goes 24/0 and I get no chance to improve my own personal play because they're always dead the moment they leave the base.

The final issue is how it's actually genuinely unfun for anyone who likes to play the above champions! They're common bans for a reason: people're afraid to fight them because of other people.

When you don't ban them because you're fully aware of how to counter them, all of you. This turns them into a feeding machine. Ever had a bad game? Now imagine if you were a Darius main and, every time you got to play Darius, that was your bad game. Not fun. Not fair. Not right. Exceptions exist, of course.

Thank you for contributing to a genuinely good discussion, by the way. I tried posting something really akin to this last night and had a bit of... bad luck with people who assumed that it's me having issues with the champion and not the concept behind them.

MissingKayo3 votes

It sucks, but I mean what do you expect?

Any non-pubstomper champion could do the same if people don't know how to play against them. They get fed off even just one person making a mistake, then proceed to squash the rest of your team because one, they are ahead, and two, the rest of the team still doesn't know how to handle them.

Pubstompers aren't that much different except they just specialize that much more in it because their counters are a lot more clear and binary, but are less known or done by lower ELO players. Non-pubstompers have less hard counters usually, but have more ways to counterplay them instead of just a few. Basically whether you want a few ways to potentially decimate someone through a counter, or a lot of ways to mitigate how effective they can be, respectively.

Any fed champion is going to give your team a hard time or not regardless of how well they know how to play against them.

Inari Fox Orrion3 votes

But yet pubstompers are designed for it, to specifically irritate and shred your team for the mistakes of someone who could be one single person of the five on your team, or theirs.

You can't really counterplay a six-slotted by 20 Yi, Yasuo, Darius, etc. in the same way you could an Ahri because you can't kill them by the time they're ready to 1v5.

It does suck. And I want it to change. It'd be better in my eyes if they'd be more akin to other normal champions, with skillsets designed around them as a character, and not making your team miserable because M7 Ahri went 0/15 by 12.

And yeah I'm well aware anyone fed will give you a hard time, but they won't basically guarantee a win for you, they'll just up your chances because they're playing well.

They don't make-or-break the team, they contribute to it regardless of all else.

MissingKayo2 votes

But what do you suggest?

Darius for example. He's a slow, bulky warrior. He has a massive axe he swings around, which shows the incoming path and has a delay because of how heavy the axe would be as well as for gameplay balance. A slow is him striking vitals and making someone bleeding out. His pull is self-explanatory. His slam dunk is his execution. By just this already, the counterplay options are staying out of his range or kiting, dodging his slow Q, staying out of his grab range, and locking him down so he can't get in melee range or do whatever he wants.

The weaknesses are inherent to the theme of the champion itself.

Inari Fox Orrion2 votes

I don't have too many good ideas beyond tuning build order and making their gameplay and theme consistent with eachother.

Darius is supposed to be a psychotic killer, but yet it feels more like I'm playing one when I'm playing Poppy. Maybe replacing his E with a charge that doesn't slow someone would fix that?

Yi is supposed to be a swordsman in leu of duelist Fiora, but he's more like a dude with one of those foam swords, just killing you via one-thousand cuts. Maybe replace his passive with something akin to PD's, giving him MS and AS against a target he's hit recently?

I don't have many ideas beyond.

MissingKayo2 votes

Can you clarify what you mean by fixed? And I don't think increasing hilt damage is that healthy because that's supposed to be another way to avoid the massive Q damage (either back out altogether or go in), such as Fiora dashing in to avoid Q for the larger damage and prevent Darius from healing, before dueling him and killing him for instance.

Can you give a suggestion? The way I see it, him gaining items and power over the course of a game is him learning the Wuju Swordsman style better. And by lategame, his autoattacks are devastating, appropriately.

Blitzcrank's entire kit is pretty much just Q. Which makes the issue of getting hit being instant death, but dodging makes him near useless outside of a flash-R for silence AoE.

Shaco's not too bad in high ELO when his reworks don't repeatedly fuck him up. He's fairly difficult and skill intensive. The bigger issue here is people don't ward in early which is the reason he gets fed. Yes, his Q makes him invisible to even red wards, but warding deeper (which means most effective in laning before his Q duration becomes massive) means you will see him before he Q stealths.

I get your train of thought, but some sort of clear-cut suggestions as for what specifically to change would be more helpful.

Inari Fox Orrion2 votes

Well, I'm no hero, nor am I anyone who is creative or clever enough to come up with a selection of ideas that may seem reasonable, whereas Riot's balancing team is a couple dozen strong.

Shaco's more or less... fine, but a great way to remedy around 75% of the issue with pubstomp champions is how people don't ward.

Fixing it is... somewhat... easy? Even if it's via one of those very tiny popup quests in the righthand corner, and it rewards you like 75g for placing a ward in a bush, it'd remind people that vision is incredibly important.

MissingKayo2 votes

That could work. Good idea on the quests thing.

Inari Fox Orrion1 votes

I do wonder what happened to the subquests like they are in bot matches.

I'm 90% sure people who know to ward wouldn't care much about the quest, so it wouldn't get in the way, but I'm also 90% sure it'd be a great reminder to the people who think that it's just my job to pop wards down everywhere.

...I would, if I could have more than three and a control ward down at once. Hell, if they cost 75g and were infinite, I wouldn't care if I never got anything more than an item 2302, I'd have the map lit up like a Christmas tree.

As for Blitzcrank, a nice way would be for a death recap that states "Stand behind your minions" if you got hit by the Q. It doesn't tell you anything about how his Q interacts with them: by pulling them instead of you.

Nope, it gives you the most useless advice: "Dodge the skillshot."

It'd also help if there was a colored indicator showing the width and length of the hitbox. Being hooked from behind minions by his apparently-magnetic hands is annoying as f***.

Mysticman895 votes

I'm pretty sure blitz actually gets stronger in higher elos, since he's a zoning monster, and higher elo players are better at actually holding on to their hooks unless they're sure it'll either net a kill or force a flash, while low elo players throw out their hooks basically off cooldown and lose all their pressure when they miss. According to lolalytics, he has a 53% winrate in plat+, and a 57% winrate on the best players.

Hiding behind minions is all well and good if he's your only problem, but avoiding him and the ad and possibly a jg and whoever else might be roaming can be a nightmare. Plus running around erraticly against a good blitz is prone to him simply running up to you, and knocking you up directly, instead of him missing a hook.

edit: Which is to say, I agree blitz should be somehow reworked. Since blitz's grab is what makes blitz blitz, I doubt they could remove it, but I don't think theres any other basic ability in the game that has so much power loaded into it. Maybe make it not go through walls and buff his other abilities slightly, so at least theres less wall grab cheese?

Grymmstrike4 votes

Darius is not useless in a teamfight...He literally walks in and cleans up every kill. Master Yi is pretty crappy, tbh. He literally only does one thing after 20 minutes and that is use Highlander to run away from the people kicking his ass.

Inari Fox Orrion1 votes

Darius is the cleanup-crew? Well, yeah, maybe if he got all five Hemo stacks off...

As for Yi, yes. That's IF he doesn't get fed off of your Top that forgets what a ward is. Oftentimes, people do forget what a ward is, to the point I see them with two ward charges all game long even when Yi is right the fuck there. Even when Zac is right the fuck there. Then, they go 12/0 and that one laners' stupidity becomes beyond a liability for the team. Or it goes the same way with Yi on my team and I get a win I possibly don't really deserve.

But that's my point and that's why I think they aren't exactly healthy game-design; They feast on stupidity.

TotalJerk1 votes

Darius is more about smacking the tank until you get 5 stacks and then flashing on top of the backline.

Limrick2 votes

Control wards don't reveal Shaco.

Inari Fox Orrion1 votes

That isn't why- actually, nevermind. xD

grug2 votes

this list is missing Katarina

i'm pretty sure katarina averages like 15kills in bronze and silver, from every katarina i've seen they've all had extremely high Kills on kat even if they suck at all their other champs

OmgitsaTreee2 votes

Yeah people in lcs are bad that's why ahri is Gud just dodge all the skillshots lul noobs /s

Cocho1 votes

A few if those actually just get better and better than higher elo you get lol, only yasuo's winrate has a noticable drop from bronze to plat according to champion.gg. All the others just improve or are relatively the same.

The thing about those champs at bronze/silver is the player using them is terrible. They can't abuse their strengths, so that's why they get better at high elos. Thats usually the case with high damage mechanical champions.

If you take out their damage or outplay potential, then they're worthless.

I don't like the argument that you need several people to take down that champ, because it just depends on your champ.

If I'm any assassin against a skilled Anivia , I'm never going to kill her alone. MasterYi vs Jax

Alot of those pubstomp champs aren't safe picks. They need to take risks and get a lead.

Alot of the time its just the difference between having mobility vs being ranged lol. They both have their advantages.

Annie gets a lead and suddenly she's pubstomping nerds with tibbers left and right lol

Inari Fox Orrion1 votes

But Annie has a very distinct (and long) window of weakness after she kills one or two people with Tibbers, whereas Yi or the like after feasting on your "I can 1v3" ADC will just stomp everything with disregard to, well, everything else.

It's not that they have a high or low winrate, it's that they are either a huge liability or a huge asset, capable of losing the game or winning it single-handedly, respectively. That isn't good design, partly because you can't do anything about it.

Cocho1 votes

huge liability or a huge asset

Yeah if your teammate feeds their butt off or is just terrible, they're probably going to be useless. Alot more champs fall under that. Some of them might be a little more useful because they got cc or are ranged. Crit ADCs and split-push top laners come to mind.

capable of losing the game or winning it single-handedly, respectively. That isn't good design, partly because you can't do anything about it.

Complicated champs usually turn out like that because they don't have reliable brain dead CC. The player has to be playing good, and that doesn't happen fairly often because of tilt, lack of skill, or just bad luck.

I'd argue, that design might actually be better. That relies more on the skill of the individual player. If all champs were like that, then you could outplay your opponent while you're behind and come out on top because you played the situation better.

It doesn't feel good to destroy your opponent and have them still be useful because they'reAnnie Ivern Janna .

It also doesn't feel good to die from a MasterYi and have nothing to do about it. However, if you were that other champs you listed, you'd have more of a chance. GravesLeeSinShacoYasuo.

I don't necessarily think the game should've just had one spectrum of champions or the other, it's interesting to have both.

I do know which champions I'd rather spectate though lol.

idontgiveabother1 votes

I have a comment about master yi: Just played a ranked game, we were doing well had some bad fights and the game got to an awkward spot. No one really noticed the yi then one fight we try and burst him he keeps keeps life stealing through that and the next thing everyone hears is "ENEMY PENTAKILL."

I ain't saying he's broken or anything but I know what you're talking about. Its kind of that feast or famine, kill or be killed.

Malfectious1 votes

Lol...I went head to head with a 10+ kill Yi last night with Heimerdinger. 3 times just me and him...Twice we both died and once I walked away. Yes Yi does a lot of damage, if you let him. Exhaust him, stun him, and kill him. He is a hard carry, make sure he is you focus.

idontgiveabother1 votes

I was playing ekko w/ a jax. We were both on him but I'm not sure if jax got the stun off, used it earlier, or yi used his q. No one had an exhaust and I think I probably forgot to use my stun or something but we both died in probably a second or so.

Malfectious1 votes

A fed Jax > a fed Yi ...He should be able to win that fight alone...He can dodge incoming auto attacks...

idontgiveabother1 votes

Jax wasn't all that fed if I remember correctly.

Grymmstrike1 votes

Played with a Yi top yesterday, he did okay versus a Riven in top lane...But ended up getting three Quadras and a Penta in team fights (Plus a Triple and a double). He went 1/4/0 and lost a turret in the initial laning phase, then came in to cleanup kills and carried the game.

Only Play Darius1 votes

Darius useless in teamfights? Guessing you have only seen shit Darius players in your games.

meowwow71 votes

when i play against Blitzcrank as Taric i welcome him with open arms and a charged e

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

TFW all those champions are perfectly viable or even S tier (Lee, Graves) at high elos except for maybe YI

TotalJerk1 votes

This is why volibear got nerfed. And people like LS threw a bitchfit about how Riot is silver or something because of it.

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