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From a Bronze point of view, the snowballing in high-elo play is... tedious.

Inari Fox Orrion··67 votes·3,302 views

It's not just boring, because at least boredom doesn't feel like a chore - boredom feels like you have nothing to do, it doesn't feel like you want to just tear your hair out and moan, bitch and groan about it every second of doing it. T1 towers exploding at 5:00. T2's at 10:00. Inhibitors being popped at 15:00. All because of a really stupid cheese strategy at Lv1 involving Xayah, Rakan and the ease of which they can bypass terrain.

Literally, the moment Lucian (this is Plat-ish elo) died at Lv1 because wards are a way-too-limited resource that can't be on every part of the map in every bush at once (can I please have the ability to spend all 150 leftover gold on both a CWard and an added Trinket charge? No? Okay...) I was like "Ah, so that's what they meant" because it helped me understand exactly why people were talking about Lv1 cheese strategies and junglers deciding games. They do - if you get FB on an enemy at Lv1, you're almost always gonna' remain ahead of them unlessthey do something stupid as hell. If you're the ADC and you don't do anything dumb in their boots, "you're winner" with all of the meaningless irony that implies.

The moment I realized neither of us could really farm in lane because we were always a level behind and a good 400-500 gold behind, and they [and their jungler] knew how to use that to their advantage, I realized why people were complaining about how snowball-oriented games were, and exactly why LCS players play as safe as possible (i.e they blow all their wards for the jungler and hug the tower/right side of the lane for Bot, left side for Top) and value leash-less junglers. Because that snowball-oriented gameplay puts one side at an eternal, immutable disadvantage that's almost impossible to come back from if they play even close to smart. Because those junglers that don't need help let the laners sit near their turret, safe from Lv1 cheese.

Compared to Bronze, this was the most tedious League match I've ever played. I couldn't fight, I couldn't do anything really - when teamfight time came, Xayah just one-shot everyone and that's... that. No strategy, no fun, nothing, just wipe the team and then push whichever tower in. Done.

Just sharing my thoughts. Personally, I'm suddenly very content to be considered a Bronze to Gold player.

24 Comments

Chip Bonk19 votes

Your first mistake: putting the word bronze in the title. People will instantly ignore it.

And I’m talking on the level of riot leaking the next years worth of skins and champions and changes, putting bronze in the title, and it instantly getting -7 downvotes.

And a comment related to the post; oof

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

what do u want more ??? He explained a case where just dying once mean game over. On bot lane its not true. And here its more related to players mistakes/levels than riot. Riot don't need to babysit player everytime.

Inari Fox Orrion2 votes

It actually did mean game-over. They knew how to abuse their advantage, their jungler also had more global presence than ours so they could babysit just to be sure their ADC was keeping their lead. I knew, the entire time, it was a loss no matter what I did. It's my insight on it, so it may be wrong, but note - I did lose like I thought I would, and in the exact same way.

GigglesO1 votes

Feels like shit doesn’t it? A lot of high mmr games are decided very early, and the rest of the game is just slowly losing.

rcrc05261 votes

Only 3 so far

ricardo20101 votes

I mean we always read the patch notes from the silver players.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku4 votes

Literally, the moment Lucian (this is Plat-ish elo) died at Lv1 because wards are a way-too-limited resource that can't be on every part of the map in every bush at once

hum... mistake on u and him. Lucian is already a bad pick, and he get cheesed. Ofc he would fall behind. That said, if he couldn't come back its more related to his own (plat isn't a good elo, just saying), u playing WW supp didn't helped.

They do - if you get FB on an enemy at Lv1, you're almost always gonna' remain ahead of them unless you do something stupid as hell.

u shouldn't die lv1, unless u f*ck up to begin. They're cheese was basic af.

ell. If you're the ADC and you don't do anything dumb, "you're winner" with all of the meaningless irony that implies.

Thanks god !!!! the one doing dumber things should lose... Sadly it was u and ur mate.

Inari Fox Orrion3 votes

Point-by-point, I'll address you.

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ELNo5pzz,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-02-26T18:42:45.203+0000)

hum... mistake on u and him. Lucian is already a bad pick, and he get cheesed. Ofc he would fall behind. That said, if he couldn't come back its more related to his own (plat isn't a good elo, just saying), u playing WW supp didn't helped.

Why should I need to play optimal, meta picks to win and/or have fun?

u shouldn't die lv1, unless u f*ck up to begin. They're cheese was basic af.

As I said, wards are limited - the only way that gank would've possibly been avoided in our own jungle is if we could have more than four wards down total for our lane (two control wards, two trinket wards) and there's no real strategy in abusing the fact someone has no tools when they have no way to even get those tools in the first place, in this case... wards. Literally, I'd quit buying HP pots if I could just buy wards with the 150.

Thanks god !!!! the one doing dumber things should lose... Sadly it was u and ur mate.

I would agree with that, but our definitions of "dumber" may vary. My idea of 'dumb' is "lets contest baron when we have a dead jungler and theirs is perfectly-okay!" Yours seems to be "give FB up!" Riot agrees with your definition, apparently, but then what's the point in having the match go on for ten more minutes?

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

Why should I need to play optimal, meta picks to win and/or have fun?

U don't really need to play meta but if u play an early adc and u die early its expected u'll lose. That said when u play a jungler instead a real supp u can't complain about ur situation. Im a plat too, and usualy go for Wukong on every lane (even did as adc). Im confident enough in skills... but if i f*ck up i won't create a topic to say "riot do something about snowballing" when its unrelated.

As I said, wards are limited

ward limited ??? u have possibility to use zombie ward, zombie poro and as bot u potentialy have 4 ward (without taking vision control in account).

the only way that gank would've possibly been avoided in our own jungle

no, u could avoided this :

  • by a better covering at start
  • a better pathing after giving a leach to jng
  • a good flash

The X Rakan trap is common.

I would agree with that, but our definitions of "dumber" may vary. My idea of 'dumb' is "lets contest baron when we have a dead jungler and theirs is perfectly-okay!"

u just seek for excuse, instead to look at ur mistakes. U could link the game we would see why u really lost, pretty sure its unrelated to riot balance.

Player3Th0mas4 votes

From my point of view the jedi are evil

RainbowIcee1 votes

you imperial scum [darius-angry]

TitanAnteus2 votes

If the enemy jungle considers you a threat, you freed other lanes since he's camping you. At that point, your top lane should be winning. Your midlane should be winning. Come teamfights, that means xayah can get shut down by your teammates. The fact that, that didn't happen means the enemy jungler made the right decision.

Your teammates weren't as good as the enemy midlane and toplane. They couldn't win w/o jungle help leaving you free to die... btw, when someone's a few levels ahead and has some of your towers down, it's a good idea to group and take them down. When enemies have the advantage they group less, meaning good teamwork could've taken down that xayah.

Jbels10 votes

{quoted}

If the enemy jungle considers you a threat, you freed other lanes since he's camping you. At that point, your top lane should be winning. Your midlane should be winning. Come teamfights, that means xayah can get shut down by your teammates. The fact that, that didn't happen means the enemy jungler made the right decision.

Your teammates weren't as good as the enemy midlane and toplane. They couldn't win w/o jungle help leaving you free to die... btw, when someone's a few levels ahead and has some of your towers down, it's a good idea to group and take them down. When enemies have the advantage they group less, meaning good teamwork could've taken down that xayah.

This would be sound logic if top lane winning had any bearing on the game whatsoever. If a fighter/bruiser wins the lane, he gets outscaled by the tank/Nasus he's playing against. Same with mid. Mid winning doesn't matter to the team winning more than Mid successfully roaming bot and getting kills for the ADC. There's a reason top laners only take TP at this point. We've become shackled to bot lane and are obligated to ensure that any aggression towards them is moot. I used to enjoy that, take pride in my ability to quickly respond to a gank attempt on bot lane, but I've since grown extremely tired of it.

I wish teleport had never been encouraged as the top lane spell. I wish tanks were good at being tanks, and not at being the hatred of the month. I wish damage and mobility creep would fuck right off. I miss season 3.

Inari Fox Orrion2 votes

Yeah I'm aware, but I'm just making it known that I'm now at least partially aware of why the LCS/Challenger/Master/Diamond/Platinum-tier plays as it does. I saw signs of, say, the Lv1 cheese, the helplessless, the incredible tediousness of waiting for your towers to explode in Bronze, but it was never this bad.

Plus, as Jbels said, very rarely do Top/Mid dictate the outcome as much and well as Jungle/Bot. Top usually houses a tank or bruiser or Fiora, more or less useful no matter how hard they feed. Mid usually houses an assassin or a mage of some kind, both of which fall off around midgame unless they get really ahead and, usually, I see even full-build mages and assassins peeling for the ADC. But Bot? It houses a hypercarry capable of chunking your entire team's health with a right-click. It also possibly houses another mage or tank.

Again, you're free to disagree - it's just what I've observed. ZedOrianna alike killing people that attack their ADC, VladimirGangplankNasusFioraGarenGnar Top building what they build, and the Vayne player 1v5'ing and getting a Penta at the end of the game.

Usernamehere12352 votes

If you're bronze, and you're losing lanes, something is seriously wrong with your level of play. If this happened in challenger, then I'd say, yeah, this is to be expected. Challenger players have always been the most adept at abusing minor advantages as much as possible. That's how the game is played in the highest elo.

In bronze through low diamond, your decision making and lack of mechanical skill is what's holding you back. It's not the game's fault in bronze that you got cheesed in a brush lvl 1 and died. That's always been a common strategy that's existed for years, a strategy that pros have been abusing literally since the start of the game. It's not about playing safe, it's about playing smart; acknowledging the potential actions of your opponent, and playing accordingly.

The reason pro players play "safe" isn't because of meta shifts. It's because the natural tendency in competitive play is to individually play safe and outperform as a team. In a competitive environment, it's inadvisable to rely on your individual skill to win matches. It's unreliable by its very nature. Teams practice together for a reason. They don't spam solo queue all day to get the best they can mechanically, because it's inconsistent and limited. In season 3, Faker legitimately did outskill every player in the LCK individually. Now, that's simply not the case.

Total Eclipse2 votes

youre blowing things out of proportion a smidge. a first blood can be undone through jungle assistance, without the enemy having to fuck up.

Elohaven1 votes

Video of the Xayah+Rakan issue?

Inari Fox Orrion1 votes

It's not a bug, just a really cheesy strategy.

Auz the Ripper8 votes

It's a cheese at lvl 1 Xayah takes W and rakan takes his knock-up. Because rakan also gets xayah's W, they heavily out DPS any other combo at level 1 and use the knock up to insure that the enemy can't escape. It's not hard to avoid if you expect it but you do have to expect it.

Hyquiem1 votes

The game is in a one point direction as well the new mage items stoped providing.. the great how they use to. Giving mages almost a desperate, desperate by the chance of also being one shot, since they don’t all get this insta flash from a press r assasin ulti free kill. Look at it this way, 3/0 brand 1/3 talon till late game hard builds both, and this talon one shots brand. At that point it’s just worth tearing up and saying “oh gosh I need to go do something I need to win” leading to gg I can’t keep a lead of this assasin one shooting me.

Danni Chimes1 votes

{quoted}

It's not just boring, because at least boredom doesn't feel like a chore - boredom feels like you have nothing to do, it doesn't feel like you want to just tear your hair out and moan, bitch and groan about it every second of doing it. T1 towers exploding at 5:00. T2's at 10:00. Inhibitors being popped at 15:00. All because of a really stupid cheese strategy at Lv1 involving Xayah, Rakan and the ease of which they can bypass terrain.

Literally, the moment Lucian (this is Plat-ish elo) died at Lv1 because wards are a way-too-limited resource that can't be on every part of the map in every bush at once (can I please have the ability to spend all 150 leftover gold on both a CWard and an added Trinket charge? No? Okay...) I was like "Ah, so that's what they meant" because it helped me understand exactly why people were talking about Lv1 cheese strategies and junglers deciding games. They do - if you get FB on an enemy at Lv1, you're almost always gonna' remain ahead of them unlessthey do something stupid as hell. If you're the ADC and you don't do anything dumb in their boots, "you're winner" with all of the meaningless irony that implies.

The moment I realized neither of us could really farm in lane because we were always a level behind and a good 400-500 gold behind, and they [and their jungler] knew how to use that to their advantage, I realized why people were complaining about how snowball-oriented games were, and exactly why LCS players play as safe as possible (i.e they blow all their wards for the jungler and hug the tower/right side of the lane for Bot, left side for Top) and value leash-less junglers. Because that snowball-oriented gameplay puts one side at an eternal, immutable disadvantage that's almost impossible to come back from if they play even close to smart. Because those junglers that don't need help let the laners sit near their turret, safe from Lv1 cheese.

Compared to Bronze, this was the most tedious League match I've ever played. I couldn't fight, I couldn't do anything really - when teamfight time came, Xayah just one-shot everyone and that's... that. No strategy, no fun, nothing, just wipe the team and then push whichever tower in. Done.

Just sharing my thoughts. Personally, I'm suddenly very content to be considered a Bronze to Gold player.

You know this is a very valid point at high enough elos. In bronze though...this is rarely ever the case. Or...should rarely ever be the case. So many bronze players just give up when they are down 3 kills. Or if they give up FB. It kills me. Let the other team make a mistake...because they will. Just hang in there and be smart. Don't chase their 59 hp 3-0-2 Lucian (8 minutes in the game) through the jungle all the way to their side where it's unwarded and they'll obviously have reinforcements. Don't turn saltier than a southern thanksgiving when you get 3v1'd because you chased the aforementioned fed Lucian across the entire map as a 1-2-1 WW.

The tilt in Bronze is that of Uranus. I've never seen anything like it.

Serika Zero1 votes

{quoted}

The moment I realized neither of us could really farm in lane because we were always a level behind and a good 400-500 gold behind, and they [and their jungler] knew how to use that to their advantage, I realized why people were complaining about how snowball-oriented games were, and exactly why LCS players play as safe as possible (i.e they blow all their wards for the jungler and hug the tower/right side of the lane for Bot, left side for Top) and value leash-less junglers. Because that snowball-oriented gameplay puts one side at an eternal, immutable disadvantage that's almost impossible to come back from if they play even close to smart. Because those junglers that don't need help let the laners sit near their turret, safe from Lv1 cheese.

...

Just sharing my thoughts. Personally, I'm suddenly very content to be considered a Bronze to Gold player.

I challenge you to find me videos of lcs eu/na or lck or whatever china's version is called where junglers do not get a leash as a default team strategy (its possible they do not get a leash due to an invade, even that happens rarely). In the past 5 weeks or so :) while I was only plat before i uninstalled the game, it was pretty common to get a leash in every single game, actually, a smite-less leash at that. And yes, i also had a certain pathing to do even when i would get no leash and i did that in a few games to check how it works and all that.

And yes, you can recover from lv1 cheese and from lv2 cheese, unless you tilt off the face of the earth (like you did). In one of my games, the enemy had a twich jungle (that shit tilts the living hell out of me), and it ganked bot at lv2 him, bot lane level 1. Basically, twich walked together with his botlaners, pressed Q when near the enemy bot, rakan engages and boom, a double kill due to a minute 1 gank. If i recall it right, I won that game.

Why? coz my bot lane didn't tilt of the face of the earth from their lv1 death and i constantly invaded twich (got lucky with my invades and wards). While playing Eve.

Some games you lose, some games you win. If you can't face your enemy laners as botlaners, you can always just roam top and try to get first turret there (do it on a cannon wave) and then go all mid, push that shit up, and now go pick up the farm bot. I've seen a lot of support roaming mid and getting kills on the enemy mid laner and that winning games. As I've seen mid laners hard carry themselves, or adcs do that themselves. Or even junglers hard carry.

So, no. You can still make comebacks. Wana know why? because we are fucking humans. Even if the enemy has an advantage, if your mind doesn't get clouded by chaos and rage (hint hint to the people that think kai'sa would've survive in the void if she was insane) you still can take advantage of their mistakes and try to turn it into a win. Ofc, if you do lose it, you die, you lose, gg wp, next game. And sometimes you tilt, which is fine. But don't act like its all the game's fault and you are "clean". Because you are not.

I've also seen xayah rakan lanes lose lv1 in bot lane, despite taking the 'cheese' strategy. Then again, that might be just because Tahm is one of the most unhealthy champions in the fucking game. HE LITERALLY EATS PEOPLE!!!!! HOW IS THAT HEALTHY??? AND HAS 2 HP BARS!!!!

Karfuss1 votes

Which is why increasingly more people give up once a lane reaches 0/3.

At that point, you know your entire team is going to be on the back leg and have very little chance come grouping at 10-20 mins.

At least in earlier seasons you had a chance to itemise against that. You knew that ADC was fed, and you instinctively buy thornmail as a colossal FU. Well, now you can't do that because games end so quickly before you can even have that balance of counter itemisation and being able to still perform your role.

UnoGetGoldELO1 votes

i win games where i die over 6 times all the time , its all about getting them inhibs and applying mappressure , dying for the team , a lot of dudes dont realize that and embrace their KDA instead then mock others while theyve near to none dmg to towers inhibs and fed by not feeding the enemy the win by being passive bitches. what you see in LCS does not reflect on actual soloque experience , and pls if you duoque with a friend who is a whole tier above you - don´t act cocky and that you are good when you cant climb on your own.

this is gold elo im talking about btw , and ive been to plat - dia before never master or challenger. you need a real commited mindset to take objectives and not to pay attention to KDA - so many games you lose because of passive behaviour and being afraid to COMMIT.

sounds offtopic but 7/10 games that i lose are due to people not willing to backup a teammate in a crucial fight running away , not trading kills , not closing the game when they can. a single death is only crucial against burst champs like riven zed yas and often they will get too cocky and throw their advantage away. however first blood gold bonus on towers needs to go , it ruins the flow of the game dramatically which is why barely anyone anymore plays lategame scalers.

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