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Theory - Support Items and Non-Supports

StoryDuck··6 votes·1,443 views

item 3190 item 3107

These two items, lets face it, are very strong. They are so strong in fact that you can build a support Camille with just these two items. You could take just about any champion in LOL slap these two items on them and they will have a meaningful impact in teamfights. It is undeniable that these are support items but they are such strong items that you rarely need anything else as a support.

However, are these really the problem for the support role? After all, as a support main I must admit I feel really strong once I get these items and I think that is an important fact. There are so few people that want to play support that having powerful items like this makes the role more attractive.

THE QUESTION

This leave me with a question, instead of nerfing these two items why not buff the others? Specifically, why are we not getting bigger buffs to shields and heals from items like item 3222 item 3504 and item 3174. This is a powerful stat that Riot has given supports but it remains woefully weakened. These items are absolutely terrible on Zyra, Velkoz, Malzahar, MF, and Brand yet champions like Lulu, Soraka, Janna, Nami and Karma often don't buy them for favor of item 3190 item 3107.

MY THEORY

My theory is to double (or at least add 10% to) the % shield and heal buff bonus on item 3222 item 3504 and add 10-20% bonus to item 3174. This might give incentives for players to play enchanter type supports and give them some serious late game strength to shields to survive against the very high burst of the Mages (and hopefully shift support mages to build AP more) in bot lane. This might lower the impact of Mages in the bot lane and bring real supports more strength hopefully making the support role more enticing for players at the same time. If this comes at the price that the % bonus shields and heals from items don't buff item 3190 and item 3107 or they have lower heal/shield to compensate all the better.

12 Comments

Sturdy Ghost2 votes

{quoted}

item 3190 item 3107

These two items, lets face it, are very strong. They are so strong in fact that you can build a support Camille with just these two items. You could take just about any champion in LOL slap these two items on them and they will have a meaningful impact in teamfights. It is undeniable that these are support items but they are such strong items that you rarely need anything else as a support.

However, are these really the problem for the support role? After all, as a support main I must admit I feel really strong once I get these items and I think that is an important fact. There are so few people that want to play support that having powerful items like this makes the role more attractive.

THE QUESTION

This leave me with a question, instead of nerfing these two items why not buff the others? Specifically, why are we not getting bigger buffs to shields and heals from items like item 3222 item 3504 and item 3174. This is a powerful stat that Riot has given supports but it remains woefully weakened. These items are absolutely terrible on Zyra, Velkoz, Malzahar, MF, and Brand yet champions like Lulu, Soraka, Janna, Nami and Karma often don't buy them for favor of item 3190 item 3107.

MY THEORY

My theory is to double (or at least add 10% to) the % shield and heal buff bonus on item 3222 item 3504 and add 10-20% bonus to item 3174. This might give incentives for players to play enchanter type supports and give them some serious late game strength to shields to survive against the very high burst of the Mages (and hopefully shift support mages to build AP more) in bot lane. This might lower the impact of Mages in the bot lane and bring real supports more strength hopefully making the support role more enticing for players at the same time. If this comes at the price that the % bonus shields and heals from items don't buff item 3190 and item 3107 or they have lower heal/shield to compensate all the better.

So yes they are very strong though redemption did just get a huge nerf so it won't be as impactful. In regards to your comment on Camille support you have to remember that the pros were playing on the old patch where camille is still very busted (she is getting nerfed) and where redemption still had its full values. With 7.3 hitting and both redemption and camille being nerfed that isn't feasible at all.

Now onto your main point, why not buff other items, the problem with always buffing and never nerfing is that it raises the numbers bar, IE you raise the bar on item 3222 item 3504 and item 3174 and all of a sudden item 3190 now seems lackluster and needs to be buffed again thus resulting in a never ending cycle of buffs in an attempt to balance the items. The other problem is in sheer value, support items are ment to be as lost cost as possible while still giving supports the stats they need to do their job, the reason you are seeing item 3190 item 3107 more favored than the others is due to the fact that they are AoE shields/heals, an aoe shield will almost always be more valuable than a percantage bonus to an individual shield, times where individual shields are more prevalent are in "protect the kog" type of compositions where your team is solely focus on protecting a single person. Otherwise it just makes more sense to give slightly weaker shields to all 5 members.

StoryDuck1 votes

This is just a theory. I'm not looking to argue current changes to items.

In my theory If the bonus shield/heal was upped for items it would give more bonus to item 3190 item 3107 too helping them stay viable (I worry about being OP). Supports don't build AP so my theory is to up bonuses to heals and shields so that their abilities are up to par with Mages in the bot lane and they can scale into late game (which a lack of late game is a reason a lot of people hate playing Support). I think there is room for growth so that enchanter supports can have a bigger impact both balancing them against support mages that deal tons of damage early and mid and allowing them to serve as late game shield/heal carries.

The ideal situation would be a balance where enchanter supports gain more from enchanting late game and mage support gain more from AP in early/mid game.

Sturdy Ghost2 votes

Very good counter point that I did not think about, my only concern would be number of item slots, redemption and locket are pretty much required across supports right now in general, however, supports like leona and nautilus then build tank items afterwards, whereas zyra builds damage items, I feel like if you made it so that those other 4 items were stronger it would just result in champs that could do well with their whole build consisting of those items be much stronger than those who diverged to fulfill their role, IE a soraka/janna would become even stronger and would have a bigger advantage over a leona or a nautilus who need to build tank after these two items.

StoryDuck1 votes

Indeed, Tank supports are a quandary. I may have to grant that point. They may need to be looked at but again I feel there is room for supports to grow. It is possible the simple fact that mage support might get pushed out by enchanters being strong could open up tank support counters. It would be really hard to say at this time. I think with Mikael's granting the biggest bonus and it having MR, regen, and bonus S&H that it will allow many tanks to benefit from the increase. Many tank supports would get tankier from this increase in S&H. It would leave a couple tank supports floundering, Leona for certain and Braum would be the biggest hurt and would likely need buffs.

Ravenhale2 votes

Presently, the only thing I believe Crucible needs is a meaningful active. Like instead of a single target cleanse, why not an AoE cleanse? As it stands, using this active on an ADC or APC that will die in the next second anyways feels awfully irrelevant. It won't crowd out Redemption or Locket, since it will still behave as a niche pick to build in the face of AoE CC.

The blood well from Athene's doesn't feel good. It builds up based on damage you deal, which means in the late game, when you have transitioned to more of a shield/healer, you won't actually be building your blood well at all. If this blood well charged up based on movement (like Shiv), it would feel more relevant at all stages of the game instead of only being a late laning phase item.

Ardent Censor has always been a staple in my builds before Redemption existed. Because of the Movespeed bonus, I've been hesitant to give it up. I like the 20% AS bonus and wish there was more visible power in this item. Players just don't realize this is a good item. It's not obvious. It might be worth making that forgotten passive into a Unique active with a 60/120 second CD based on how much AS bonus would be worth that CD.

You didn't mention it, but Harbinger is another Mage Support item that has been overlooked with the rise of Redemption. This particular item suffers from "timing". Your power spikes are based around charges that are gradually picked up over time and by attacking. It probably is a good item for a coordinated duo, but feels almost as RnG as Zyra's passive. I would much prefer a temporary active that lasted eight seconds with some sort of CD than a tether.

StoryDuck1 votes

Interesting ideas, I don't think an AoE cleanse would impact much though because a lot of AoE CC is displacement and not stuns or roots (there are some I know). Perhaps adding the heal back would help but I think more supports would benefit from more shield/heal instead. I think we should be empowering the enchanters so that they feel strong not making items feel strong. Bonus heal/shield is a good stat for doing this.

I agree that Athene's feels very weak at this time. The only support I use it on is Nami because her heal bounces as damage too.

I build Ardent on Sona. That has been about it. I rarely feel that adding that small damage and AS buff makes a big difference. I'm sure it does I just never really feel like it does.

Harbinger is a very strong item and I think a little OP but currently every ADC easily build 80% crit in their standard build and by the time I get to this item that are already beyond 50% crit making this item lose a lot of power. I still buy it time from time and when I get an early lead this is often an OP first buy but as you say it requires some coordination to really use.

Ravenhale2 votes

Personally, I hate item actives, but that's what seems to make Locket and Redemption enjoyable. Crucible has always bothered me, since it doesn't even have an enjoyable active. At least an AoE cleanse would give you those "denied" moments when Amumu, Sejuani or Leona try to engage on your team. I also thought of changing it to a proactive CC blocking shield, but realized I'm only thinking that because I play Morgana so much and have those "darn, wish I could have prevented that" moments when I play any other support.

Ardent has the same issue that Aegis had. I miss the bonus MR aura that I used to be able to pick up early against those pesky AP Mage supports. But I concede it was a hidden and non-interactive power to protect your partner. Ardent is a case of hidden power. Your ADC is wondering why the heck you shielded them as they are popping shots at the tower or at the start of trades instead of saving it for when they are taking damage. It is a stronger laning item unless you put it on a champion that can AoE shield a team (Karma/Lux/Sona) for bursting down objectives late game. Transitioning hidden power to a more interactive "active" would probably be a more enjoyable experience.

I understand that Harbinger should strongly be considered when partnered with Ashe or Jhin because they have no limit on crit.

StoryDuck1 votes

Try getting an early Harbinger to pair with a Twitch ADC. It's disgusting. :)

PureSilvrr2 votes

But why try to make "enchanters" appealing by buffing the one thing riot has already buffed. Most Enchanters have a Heal/Shield, Speedboost, some form of cc and a Unique ult.

Instead of just buffing items till they reach ridiculous levels like 60% heal and shield power( which they would seriously have to up the cost for, leading to another supports and gold QQ month, why not try to look at other parts of a kit.

Speed boosts for example. Why not give an item that creates 10% increase to speed boosts and slows.

People could finally get a 100% speed boost or a 100% slow(snare) on Zilean Or you could build Janna based on moving your allies across the map with speedboost from your passive, while giving meaning to your W active a 40% slow at max rank, scaling with ap, but who buys ap when your too busy building item 3222 item 3174 item 3107 item 3190 item 3504 to boost your one spell to ridiculous amounts.

Or one could build both heal and shield and speed and slow, giving meaning to more than 2 abilities in your kit( Heal/shield and ult.)

I would even go as far and say maybe give an item that increases cc duration, but that would be super abusable, maybe put it on a long cooldown with an easy warning indicator to tell them to stay away.

But that's just my thoughts.

StoryDuck1 votes

I don't think an extra 30-40% bonus H&S with 3+ items is too much, nor would it require a reduction in gold for supports. As to why do we want to do this? Mages are currently a problem to be balanced bu more importantly; to make supports stronger and more appealing. There is no reason that supports can't feel just as impactful as other laners. Shielding/healing is a big factor of what a support does so making that ability feel great would make people feel great playing support through the entire game. It can feel pretty awful to be a support in the late game when everyone has 6 items and you feel like you have 3 items. It's one of the reasons I love Redemption and Locket, I feel strong with them all game long so I don't want them nerfed.

Also, I like the idea of bonus to slows/speed boosts but that would require some major changes to balance where I feel my idea might be a bit more obtainable.

Erockandroll2 votes

The biggest concern with buffing those scaling support items is that it could create potential abuse on midlaners who already have the ability to build High AP.

That's kinda the same problem those items in particular have now. Redemption and Locket can be built by just about anyone, and offer a massive amount of utility. Locket in particular isn't too terrible on Tanks, as it can give you and your team, a burst tankyness at the right moment. Though the idea behind powerful supportive items like that, is that they get diminishing returns if used in rapid succession.

I'm not saying those items are a problem on other teammates. If anything, it helps the support free up their build options. However, those items are inevitably unbalanced, if they are constantly used. (By anyone really)

I think over all, aside from the starting items (sight stone, GP10) you could probably think of support items and either dependent or independent. Independent support items provides a powerful utility independent of the supports kit, and usually purchase for that utility. (including locket and Redemption) While dependent support items are designed to work with the supports own kit, and make the supports own utility stronger. (Censor, Athene's, etc)

Either classification can either be abused by other roles if too powerful. Though I would be particularly careful about buffing those dependent items, as they will basically favor one kind of Support, and cement them as the OP meta. (As independent support items will work on any support)

StoryDuck1 votes

That is a concern. I admit. They would have to give up a big AP item to do it but utility is highly valued. I don't really mind utility mid laners returning and to be honest I kind of miss the buff the ADC comps. It was fun working with my mid laner to protect the Kog because I felt empowered while doing it. It was an enjoyable challenge to catch the enemy Kog because my team knew who to kill and worked together to try and get it done.

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