I have one complaint about recent changes.

Mira Arya Enthe··54 votes·2,843 views

So I've gotten my ass handed to me a few times recently, handed out some ass kickings of my own as well. But every single match has been decided by the same factor. Which jungler got dragon/rift herald seems to decide a huge amount of games.

Even as a Jungle player, I find this very frustrating. This isn't HotS. Often times your laners cannot just leave lane, if they are in certain matchups they also often have zero early game power vs their enemy. And the only way to convince them to leave lane is often a successful gank that leaves both parties at high HP.

This means early game Dragons and now Herald, things that immensely slant snowball, are almost entirely decided by junglers. In a time when Riot is getting so much right I feel the decision to add another early game team objective was a mistake.

Unless they have some grand scheme to make all laners more relevant early game, make games longer and buff towers. Games are going to be almost always decided by who has the better jungler. This is a complete 180 from old seasons where jungler was instead a secondary support.

I think it is a problem but I would love to hear what you have to say. Comment your thoughts below.

85 Comments

Malicious Metal33 votes

Ever since the latest Jungle changes the Jungler has become the most influential member of the team. Jungle presence is what decided games, has been like that the entirety of the season already.

The main problem here is how the Jungler isn't even reliant on his laners anymore since he has a lot of income, both in terms of XP and Gold.

Ralanr15 votes

We can tell because of how often triforce is bought as a core item for some junglers.

I'm sorry but if an expensive item like triforce is one of your most common rush items as a jungler and you get it relatively quickly, maybe you're making too much money?

Ahristocats2 votes

"how often"

are you high? which jungler right now buys triforce? i even saw YoumuusYT buying black cleaver on hecarim

lee doesn't buy triforce same for rengar kha ivern elise gragas amumu

Ralanr2 votes

Just personal experience and my own bias towards the item. It's also pretty much always present in those "tank" builds as the sole damage item.

Hethalean5 votes

Warwick, Xin Zhao, Jax, Vi, Hecarim, Skarner, Shaco

Ahristocats8 votes

never saw any warwick building it LMFAO

as for the others, no one plays them atm except shaco

and i agree with shaco

GULAG 4 U2 votes

Xin Zhao is popular in korea though, because he counters Lee sin and the other meta topdogs.

RottedApples1 votes

wow i didn't even know xin was popular in korea. he was just one of my comfort jungle picks that i seem to do well on.

GGLineaR1 votes

I've seen a few. It's not totally outlandish to think that someone would buy it on Warwick.

He profits from the attack speed bonus (because his is slow as balls at first), and the small boost to movespeed (due to his ult's dependence on ms).

There are better items, for sure, but the fact that they have enough income to rush that as their first item at all is problematic.

TheSingularity1 votes

If a champ sacrifices gank pressure like skarner or shyv who have lackluster ganks. For gold income by power farming, then the sacrifice needs to be worth the reward

GGLineaR1 votes

Those are some arbitrary champs you picked there. I was just speaking about WW.

EDIT: I've never actually even seen a Shyv jungle or a Skarner (at all)

EDIT2: nvm, I see someone mentioned him. I still don't understand how your reply at all relates to my point. Feel free to explain.

TheSingularity1 votes

It was primarily in response to "but the fact that they have enough income to rush that as their first item at all is problematic."

In that while they are (farm jglers) able to get the item early by power farming both sides of the jungle (they clear faster than camps respawn), the opposing jungler can capitalize on the fact that ANY farm based jungler will allow:

Weak laners to fall behind. Enemy lane bullies to dominate. The enemy jungler to gank to his hearts content. And the enemy jungler to assert neutral objective control.

All so that they can buy tri force first in a reasonable time frame. Their team may well have thrown the game away by then and it'd all have been for nothing.

As for WW and other gank oriented junglers. If they successfully snowball to the point they can first buy tri force, they deserve it.

Similar champs would be udyr and yi, in that both can be played as power farm jglers and hell, udyr also uses tri force.

If we compare tri force rush to the infamous days of feral flare and sated devourer, where a pissy 2200 ish gold item could equal and even soar above tri if a champ farmed enough. I'd rather tri force rushes any day.

GGLineaR1 votes

tbh, I rarely see anyone but Lee and Kha as junglers. Neither of them use triforce.

I was just defending the use of triforce on doggo, but if WW is put in a place where he can rush that as his first item, that will be some scary shit.

EDIT: I'd be happy to see more skarners though. His kit seems interactive on both sides. Too bad Lee and Kha won't fuck off.

Troll for Trump3 votes

Xin zhao gets botrk, Vi gets cleavers.

It's only Jax, Hecarim, Skarner, Shaco.

Of those, 3 of them have basically been dependant on Triforce for an eternity

AgeOfTheMage1 votes

when playing shaco I don't rush triforce, I prefer bloodrazor, increases my clear speed a ton. I take trinity when I want to do damage to champions.

Penns10 votes

I just wish Drakes were harder to solo early. Like srsly, my last 2 ranked games: https://i.gyazo.com/27c5ece8448b55d78a17ca4cb471385a.png https://i.gyazo.com/e41cc35cf549b4a61c4894f50c3705b7.png

Pretty fun sitting in lane at minute 5 and hearing that the enemy Olaf/Shyvana solod Infernal haHAA

Mira Arya Enthe9 votes

As a Shyvana player even I agree. Drake and Herald need buffs so they require laners to kill.

Or at least a completed jungle item. I can solo it lvl 3 at the soonest 4 optimally.

Ralanr7 votes

Hell all Warwick needs is level 3 with double buffs and he'll come out with most of his health.

Early dragons on Warwick are really his most "risky" but easy tactic.

Salson9 votes

It also creates a rather unique balance issue. If Junglers are strong AND have high objective control they become broken. Rito's solution seems to be gutting their lategame and basically FORCING them to be gank bots.

It's like Mordekaiser. If he's strong under normal circumstances, he's broken with Ghost Drake and if he's weak..... well he's the current Mordekaiser.

I hope they just nerf the damn drakes, or at least the Infernal one.

FilDaFunk5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wToAgcrB,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-05-16T15:12:25.423+0000)

In a time when Riot is getting so much right

Are they?

GULAG 4 U3 votes

Hey Mira, I'm new at hots (haven't been able to play the game in a while, last time I did was in january I believe) and I prefer playing the game with someone I know. Could I add you through the battlenet client? Thanks.

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

Well I would like to provide a counterargument. Not saying this is my view, but I want another side expressed here.

In the past, where the jungler was only as good as a second support, was jungling impactful? Or were junglers content to farm 24/7 with the game being a 4v4 until teamfights?

If that's what junglers want then that's fine. I just think that increased interaction between junglers and their laners was wanted. After all people want to play PvP, not PvE as shown by the vast amount of kill lanes and all ins at lvl 3.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

Indeed, but it should be somewhere in the middle, problem is that it has rarely been that way; either from riot changing some mechanics (like jungle plants), or their items (remember the lantern?).

NakedGranny1 votes

Maybe what we should really be asking is: why are supports still relegated to being so unimportant? If Junglers can move from "only as good as a second support", in your words, to "now they decide the match in the first ten minutes", why can't actual, real supports be that impactful?

What if I'd like to support people and feel like I make a difference beyond just being the dedicated wardbitch?

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Supports actually carry the early game in the laning phase. When I say they were only good as a second support, I was reiterating the OP's analogy in their post. I play support quite a bit, and I make an impact.

NakedGranny1 votes

Your anecdote is utterly irrelevant.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

To you perhaps, but my original comment isn't for you, now is it?

NakedGranny1 votes

No, it just isn't important that you have a story to tell.

Aimléss2 votes

Well what they have to do is finally nerf champs like Lee Sin, like god, what are they waiting for lol? And towers should be buffed, so that the Rift Herald and Earth Dragons are REQUIRED if you want to get a whole bunch of turrets in the early game. Because at the moment, you can get a whole bunch of early game turrets WITHOUT these buffs, then with these buffs it just gets so ridiculous that you can take all of an enemy's inhibitors before the 20 minute mark.

KoKoboto2 votes

Rito needs to nerf jungle but also gotta make sure the bottom junglers aren't left in the dust. Make Rift Herald and Dragon harder to solo cause it's way too easy... Decrease jungle gold gain somehow? Buff up lower tier junglers?

Buff towers is also pretty big because for ganks and early tower dives.

PureSilvrr2 votes

Rift is stupidly overtuned, I can literally ask for my jg to do rift with me and I can turn a losing lane into a free turret if the enemy ever backs without teleport. I honestly try to solo Lvl 6 with Yorick if the enemy jg ever dies or is seen contesting dragon.

Sir Fuzzi2 votes

The jungle is powerful because the jungle has the free potential to make plays in any lane. It's so, so much easier to fall behind than it is to get ahead in League, it always has been. But it's even harder now, with damage-centric champions coming out with more and more to them.

RacoonHunter2 votes

As you stated, the issue is now that the buffs are TOO powerful. Rift herald is still too tough to take down once released and does too much damage to already weak towers.. I've had a game end in 15 minutes because the enemy team let a rift herald two shot all their towers and inhib until finally killing it before it hit a second time on their nexus turrets. Baron is equally difficult to deal with as it's almost impossible for a team that's behind to win fights vs someone with a baron buff.

Wind dragon is still kinda the laughing stock of dragons.. Mountain can afford to lose a bit more on it's % based damage on towers and large monsters (aka baron) as well as infernal's power towards everyone on their team.. Ocean is the most balanced one as it's regen is very small and only out of combat.

Riot needs to seriously relook at the jungle.. I get it how they are trying to make objectives matter, but this is kinda rediculous

Scary Door2 votes

Gee, it's as if many of us warned about all of this extra power that was put into the game re: Dragons/Rift Herald.

Weird how posts like this were downvoted a couple of weeks back, but now have significant numbers of upvotes. People said "b...b...b...but you need time to see what happens..." Sometimes that's true, but obviously bad ideas are obvious and Rift Herald as it is was not a good idea.

Current Rift Herald simply promotes snowballing in a game that is already far too heavy in that department.

NakedGranny1 votes

Riot: "What damage creep? +24% extra damage just for doing that thing you were going to do anyway is fine!"

BestSupportGold1 votes

Objectives win games. It's been like than since Dragon awarded Gold. There are always opportunities to get Dragon and Rift Herald. It's both the lane and junglers map awareness that allows this to be possible.

If enemy Jungler is top lane, and Bot lane has lane pushed to enemy turret and they just went back, you can coordinate a dragon. If your team gets a few kills, and dragon is near respawn, it's time to place vision wards and sweeper and deny vision. Same thing with Herald, if you see jungler going bottom for a gank since the wave is pushed against them, and top recently TP'd you now how time to do herald. And it is at Mid's discretion as well, when their team rotates to other lanes, punish them by taking objectives..

dEAdbUs1 votes

Enemy jungler ganks bot, kills bot, and they take bot tower in threesome, while you're taking Herald.

Some things are good only on paper. In real ranked you are lucky if you'll get such kind of organization in your team.

BestSupportGold1 votes

{quoted}

Enemy jungler ganks bot, kills bot, and they take bot tower in threesome, while you're taking Herald.

Some things are good only on paper. In real ranked you are lucky if you'll get such kind of organization in your team.

It's not only good on paper. Most of the time, junglers don't cover lanes when they go back. They won't know your a Rift if it's not warded. Early game would be hard to take turret so easy especially if you the jungler hasn't been seen.

dEAdbUs1 votes

Herald spawns not very early.

What you're writing about - it's doable, but not in every game. In some situations enemy jungler will ward Herald and enemy midlaner won't let you take it, in some bot lane won't listen you and will stay farming on frozen lane under own tower, etc. So you described perfect situation that happens rarely.

Don't forget towers are objectives too, and some drakes won't help much to your team if they can't utilize buff (immobile team and wind drake, manaless team and water drake, etc).

Thefrostyviking1 votes

I second the idea that objectives need to be a bit more difficult, while i am playing Shyv i am able to kill drag at lvl 4 with naught but item 1041 item 2031 item 1043 .

It's kinda ridiculous, i´ve snowballed so many games on shyv by just waiting until the other jungler ganks top before zerging drag, then repeating it later and just gaining a huge advantage from the stacking dragon buffs.

I could probably do it on Xin Zhao and possibly WW as well using the same items.

...

I do feel a little bad about my sacrificed toplaners but it is for a good cause, my S ranks c,

Sinlaire1 votes

Aatrox Fiddlesticks Jax Khazix Kindred LeeSin MasterYi Nocturne Nunu Olaf Rengar Sejuani Skarner Trundle Tryndamere Udyr Vi Volibear Warwick XinZhao Yorick

these guys can take a lvl 4 dragon when jungling too. it's not impressive. it's just opportunistic as it leaves many of the almost guaranteed to die if caught.

DJMason881 votes

Good luck with some of those lol.

Sinlaire1 votes

hence the " it's just opportunistic as it leaves many of them almost guaranteed to die if caught."

PureSilvrr1 votes

Tfw pre 6.23 malz was on that list ;-;

dEAdbUs1 votes

I'm taking drake on lev 3 with Nunu. Still it doesn't always help to carry games.

Doozku1 votes

How do Rengar, Yi, and Lee Sin do drake at level 4?

Sinlaire1 votes

Back at lvl 4. buy item 1043 for Yi , item 3133 for rengar and lee, add red buff for luxury and win. All 3 can do drake at lvl 4 if they back, buy, and bee line for drag. full health and low level gives you plenty of time to early game cheese it when they arent expecting it.

UnboundCreator1 votes

Whenever someone makes a post about jungle being too influential I put them on the list of players that I will never open posts from again. People have been saying this since the beginning of league.

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

Do you ever have anything positive to input? I have watched you go to post after post just saying everyone is an idiot in some wording or another. How about use the boards for more than just making yourself out to be better than everyone else?

ForgiveColour1 votes

This is a complete 180 from old seasons where jungler was instead a secondary support

You mean 5 years ago in season 2

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